Hearing transcripts

31 January 2008 - Afternoon session

6 (1.30 pm)
7 (Jury present)
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Good afternoon, can you hear us
9 on the Paris link?
10 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: Yes, sir, we can hear you very
11 clearly.
12 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you. You aren't terribly
13 clear. Can you speak again?
14 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: We can hear you clearly, sir.
15 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you.
16 I call the next witness, M Garrec.
17 MR CLAUDE GARREC (sworn)
18 (Evidence via videolink) (Interpreted)
19 Questions from MR HOUGH
20 MR HOUGH: Are you Claude Garrec?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. My name is Jonathan Hough and I will be asking you
23 questions on behalf of the Coroner.
24 You, I think, were a very close friend of
25 Henri Paul, weren't you?

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1 A. I knew Henri for more than 20 years and I was a very
2 close friend.
3 Q. I think you gave a statement to the French police on
4 3rd September 1997.
5 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: Excuse me, Mr Hough, we are
6 having trouble hearing you.
7 MR HOUGH: I will try again. I think you gave a statement
8 to the French police on 3rd September 1997?
9 A. Yes, indeed.
10 Q. I think you also assisted the French police in a search
11 of M Paul's apartment after his death?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I think you also gave a statement to the British police
14 in recent years in the Paget Inquiry?
15 A. Last year.
16 Q. Have you given any other interviews about these matters
17 to the media or to anybody else?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Could you briefly say what those interviews were and
20 when they took place?
21 A. I don't remember the date, but I remember two weeks ago
22 I gave an interview to an Italian media.
23 Q. Did you receive any payment for that?
24 A. Absolutely not. I gave tens and dozens of interviews
25 for TV channels and I never earned any penny. It was

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1 done for the memory of my friend.
2 Q. Am I right to assume, then, that you are not expecting
3 or hoping for any payment in the future?
4 A. Absolutely not.
5 Q. Thank you. Turning to matters of background, I think
6 you come from the same home town in Brittany as
7 Henri Paul.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I think you met him in the early 1970s, when he was in
10 his late teens?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You remained friends with him until the end of his life,
13 and you lived in Paris from, I think, 1983?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You also, while in Paris, had mutual friends who also
16 came from the same home town?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Well, did you at least have mutual friends in the form
19 of Dominique Melo and his wife, also called "Dominique".
20 A. These are common friends, but they are not living in
21 Paris. Sorry, I misunderstood.
22 Q. But is it fair to say that you were probably
23 Henri Paul's closest friend?
24 A. Yes, I think so.
25 Q. He was the best man at your wedding; is that right?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. May I now ask you a few questions about his working
3 life? After his compulsory National Service, I think
4 that he sold boats for a few years?
5 A. Yes, maybe two years.
6 Q. Then in 1986, I think he entered the employment of
7 the Ritz as assistant to the head of security?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And he retained basically the same job for the rest of
10 his life?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, I think he had been recommended to Monsieur Roulet
13 at the Ritz by a friend of his?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. During the time that he was deputy head of security, did
16 he have any ambition to become the head of security?
17 A. No, it has never been his ambition, and even with some
18 humour, he was joking, saying that he much preferred not
19 to be the head because it was the head who had all the
20 problems.
21 Q. Turning to his working day, I think he normally worked
22 between 9 o'clock in the morning and 7 o'clock in the
23 evening on weekdays?
24 A. Yes, absolutely.
25 Q. I think he didn't normally work at weekends, but

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1 sometimes did when there were special events on?
2 A. Yes, absolutely.
3 Q. Now, his job obviously involved making security
4 arrangements at the Ritz. Did it also involve liaising
5 with the Villa Windsor, Mr Al Fayed's property in Paris?
6 A. And also for the St Tropez villa.
7 Q. And, indeed, Mr Al Fayed's base in London as well?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Are you aware of what kind of relationship he had with
10 the president of the Ritz, Mr Klein?
11 A. Not at all -- sorry, I thought you were speaking of
12 Mr Al Fayed, but with Mr Klein he had a very good
13 relationship.
14 Q. I think you have said in your statements that he was
15 quite close with Mr Klein, and that other members of
16 the Ritz staff may even have resented how close
17 a relationship he had with Mr Klein?
18 A. I confirm it.
19 Q. Now you said you didn't know about his relationship with
20 Mr Al Fayed. Did you know whether he had respect for
21 Mr Al Fayed?
22 A. Yes, a lot.
23 Q. In your statements you say that he always did his very
24 best for Mr Klein and Mr Al Fayed.
25 A. I confirm it.

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1 Q. In your view, how loyal was he to the Ritz and to the
2 Al Fayed family?
3 A. He was fully loyal.
4 Q. From your knowledge of him, would he have done anything
5 to harm them, manipulate them or betray their
6 confidence?
7 A. Certainly not.
8 Q. Now, I think you have been asked this question in the
9 past: from your understanding of his relationship with
10 the Al Fayed family, would he have refused
11 an instruction by Dodi Al Fayed to drive for him?
12 A. No, certainly not.
13 Q. You have been asked this before, and it may be
14 impossible for you to answer it: if Henri Paul had been
15 over the drink drive limit and had been asked to drive
16 for his employers, what do you think his response would
17 have been, from your knowledge of him?
18 A. I think he would have done it because if he drove the
19 car -- if he felt he could do it.
20 Q. I think that while he was working at the Ritz, he was
21 sent on some driving courses arranged by Mercedes; is
22 that right?
23 A. These were training sessions organised by Mercedes
24 for -- because of the lobbying done by the ground(?) for
25 the Ritz Hotel.

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1 Q. In your statements you have described them as lasting
2 a few days each and involving general advanced driving;
3 is that as you understood it to be?
4 A. Yes. Two to three days.
5 Q. Did you think it was part of Henri Paul's regular duties
6 at the Ritz to drive clients of the Ritz?
7 A. No, absolutely not. It would happen, but it was rare,
8 extremely rare.
9 Q. Can I now turn to Henri Paul's private life? I think
10 that he had a hobby of flying light aircraft; is that
11 right?
12 A. Yes, absolutely.
13 Q. We know that he qualified as a pilot in 1976.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. How seriously did he take his flying?
16 A. It was a significant hobby for him, he loved that, and
17 we very often went with him in the plane to go to
18 Brittany or to go anywhere else.
19 Q. I think you told the French police that he would
20 normally fly about once a month in the period before he
21 died; is that a fair estimate?
22 A. Yes, but it was quite irregular because you have to meet
23 several conditions to be able to fly. You have to
24 depend upon the weather conditions, you have to give the
25 map of your flight before, so it's quite complex.

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1 Q. Yes, I see. I understand that when he did get to fly,
2 his flying cost him around 1,000 francs or about £100
3 an hour?
4 A. I think, yes, it's around this amount of money.
5 Q. I think we also know and I think you also know that he
6 passed his medical examination for flying in August of
7 1997?
8 A. Yes, I didn't bring it today, but I supplied it already.
9 I have a medical certificate dating back three to four
10 days before he died, certifying that he could fly.
11 Q. In fact it's dated 28th August 1997.
12 A. I gave it to Scotland Yard and I still have a copy of
13 it.
14 Q. Did you understand that the medical examination carried
15 out was a thorough one?
16 A. Certainly, because the doctor is certified by the
17 General Administration for Civil Aviation.
18 Q. Now, I think, turning to a different aspect of his
19 private life, he had a relationship with a fellow
20 employee at the Ritz, Laurence Pujol.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I think they started going out and Laurence Pujol moved
23 in with him in 1990?
24 A. That's possible. I don't remember. What I know is that
25 sometimes their relation was quite chaotic.

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1 Q. I think Mlle Pujol had a young daughter called Samantha.
2 A. Yes, absolutely; the same age as my own daughter.
3 Q. Did Henri Paul become close to her during his
4 relationship with her mother?
5 A. Yes, absolutely.
6 Q. Now, I think he and Laurence Pujol split up finally
7 about two years before he died, 1995?
8 A. That's possible. I know their relation was quite
9 complex. I don't really remember the dates.
10 Q. When they did break up and he lost contact with Laurence
11 and her daughter, what was the effect on him of the
12 break-up of the relationship?
13 A. I think Henri was really affected by it.
14 Q. Is this right, that he actually stopped flying for
15 a short while and also was less sociable for a while?
16 A. As far as I am concerned I wouldn't say he was less
17 sociable because we were meeting with him, he was coming
18 at home once a week, I was having a dinner with him once
19 a week, we were giving phone calls every two days, so as
20 far as I am concerned, he was not less sociable.
21 Q. Dealing then with how regularly you saw him, in the
22 period before he died, how often in an average week
23 would you see Henri Paul?
24 A. Three times a week.
25 Q. I think you played tennis regularly on Saturday

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1 mornings.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. During the average week, I think you also had regular
4 dinners with a group of mutual friends?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Then, in the third week of July 1997, did you go on
7 holiday with a group of people including Henri Paul?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Did that group include the Melo family, yourself, your
10 wife and your daughter?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How old was your daughter at that time?
13 A. She was 11.
14 Q. Were there any other children on the holiday?
15 A. I don't remember. Certainly the children of the Melo
16 family.
17 Q. How was Henri Paul's mood on that holiday?
18 A. He was tense.
19 Q. Is that "tense"? Sorry, this is a question for the
20 interpreter: did you say "tense"?
21 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
22 MR HOUGH: Was he regularly on the phone to work?
23 A. A lot.
24 Q. In general terms -- you have said that you were probably
25 his closest friend -- would you know all about his

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1 problems and personal life?
2 A. He had some secrets and that's normal. I could see some
3 things, but he didn't tell everything.
4 Q. On that topic, was he, by nature, an outgoing type of
5 person or more of a private, even secretive person?
6 A. Outgoing, I would say.
7 Q. In your statements you have said that he wasn't the sort
8 of person to tell everybody everything about himself.
9 Is that something that you stick to or did his extrovert
10 personality also go to telling people about his private
11 affairs?
12 A. It's difficult to define. He had a strong temper. When
13 I am saying he was outgoing, it's because he had
14 a strong temper. It doesn't mean that he was telling
15 his life to anybody.
16 Q. Were you aware whether he had any relationships after he
17 and Mlle Pujol split up?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You don't know or he didn't have any relationships?
20 A. I don't think he had any.
21 Q. Sorry, Madame Interpreter, I have just been passed
22 a note indicating that when you said "strong temper",
23 the words translated may have meant "strong character".
24 Can you please clarify that?
25 A. Yes, "strong character".

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1 Q. Were you saying that he had a strong temper in the sense
2 of having a hot temper?
3 A. Yes, you may say so.
4 Q. Was he prone to be angry?
5 A. I didn't see him often being angry.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 A. It's rather with his relationship with the staff members
8 of the Ritz, he had not a flat temper, he was quite
9 strong.
10 Q. So he could be forceful at work?
11 A. Yes, indeed.
12 Q. Turning to another aspect of his life, I think that
13 certainly in 1997 he smoked cigarillos?
14 A. Yes, according to me, yes.
15 Q. You spent some time together while on holiday that July.
16 How heavy a smoker was he?
17 A. I think he was smoking a box of cigarillos once a day.
18 Q. How many cigarillos would there be in the box?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. You have indicated in your interview with the British
21 police that you would have thought there would be about
22 20 in a box; does that jog your memory as a fairly
23 standard number?
24 A. That's possible.
25 Q. Can you describe or characterise his attitude to

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1 alcohol, his drinking habits?
2 A. I think he was somebody who could well manage his
3 consumption of alcohol.
4 Q. Did he drink more or less than the average Frenchman?
5 A. He was not a wine drinker. He was rather -- in
6 a dinner, he was rather having two alcohols before, as
7 an aperitif, but not a wine drinker.
8 Q. When he did have something to drink, how tolerant was he
9 of the effects of alcohol?
10 A. Very high.
11 Q. Now you told the British police, certainly, that he was
12 able to drink perhaps four Ricards and a few beers
13 without showing any ill effects; is that a fair summary
14 of it?
15 A. That's possible.
16 Q. Did you ever see him drive shortly after drinking?
17 A. No. Anyway, when we were together, I was the driver.
18 Q. Do you have your statement in front of you that you gave
19 to the British police? Page 4 of 10, please.
20 A. No, I don't have it.
21 Q. Okay, I am going to read what you said to the British
22 police so it can be clear.
23 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, do you have the number of the
24 documents? Because maybe we have it.
25 MR HOUGH: It is a British police statement which begins at

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1 [INQ0006741 - read out in court].
2 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we have a British document.
3 MR HOUGH: It is page 4 of that document.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
5 MR HOUGH: If you have the French, the French version, it is
6 the last full paragraph beginning "Normalement, apres
7 une fete ..."
8 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we have it.
9 MR HOUGH: Could Mr Garrec please read that paragraph?
10 (Witness read paragraph aloud in French)
11 MR HOUGH: Madame Interpreter, could you just interpret that
12 for us please?
13 THE INTERPRETER: "Normally, after a party, we were
14 remaining on the occasion of the party in Lorient when
15 we had only 3 kilometres to drive. Sometimes we come
16 back home. Henri Paul was somebody who was always under
17 control. Sometimes he could drive after having drunk
18 during the party, but it was not impacting on the way he
19 drove. He never had any accidents. He could always go
20 back home after a party and he had all his points on his
21 driving licence."
22 MR HOUGH: I think, just to be clear, the statement says
23 that he didn't have any points on his licence at any
24 time, just to be clear.
25 A. Yes, absolutely.

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1 Q. Is that a reasonable explanation of your experience of
2 Henri Paul on occasions?
3 A. Yes, absolutely.
4 Q. So having your memory jogged by that, do you now recall
5 that he did sometimes drive after drinking?
6 A. Yes, but as many people, he was not exaggerating.
7 MR KEEN: I wonder if the interpreter could be asked to
8 assist with the last translation when she said he was
9 "not exaggerating", because it doesn't quite fit and
10 I wonder if it can be clarified, sir.
11 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
12 MR HOUGH: Perhaps I can clarify that. By that last answer,
13 did you mean that he did not behave exaggeratedly?
14 MR KEEN: No, instead of leading the witness, could we just
15 have a translation? That's all I want, sir.
16 A. According to me, it was not too much. He was not drunk,
17 I couldn't see him being drunk. According to me, if
18 somebody is drunk, there are signs which show you that
19 the person is drunk. It was not the case.
20 MR HOUGH: So is it your evidence that he did not show signs
21 after drinking when he drove?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now we are aware from statements and from records that
24 Henri Paul received certain prescriptions from around
25 June 1996. Those were for Noctamide, Tiapride and

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1 Aotal. Were you aware of those medications he was
2 taking?
3 A. Absolutely not. I had the notice of it after his death.
4 Q. These medications, just to be clear, are prescribed
5 particularly for dealing with alcohol problems. Were
6 you aware in more general terms that he had ever
7 discussed an alcohol problem with you?
8 A. Absolutely not.
9 Q. We know also that, in March 1997, Henri Paul was
10 prescribed Prozac by Dr Melo. Were you aware of that?
11 A. No. I never saw him taking any drug either at home or
12 when we were in a restaurant.
13 Q. In terms of his preferred drinks, is it right that he
14 particularly like pastis like Ricard?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Turning to his financial situation, I think his average
17 salary in the year before his death was around
18 17,300 francs per month.
19 A. I ignore it.
20 Q. That's around £21,000 a year for those here.
21 M Paul was found to have bank balances totalling
22 1.67 million French francs. Were you aware that he had
23 that kind of money in his bank accounts?
24 A. I have had notice of it when we did the succession.
25 Q. That's about £170,000 for those here. He was also found

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1 to have deposited over 400,000 francs in the last eight
2 months of his life. Were you aware of that?
3 A. No, I ignored it.
4 Q. Were you also aware that he was found to have over
5 12,000 francs on his person when he died?
6 A. Yes, I know it.
7 Q. Are you aware why he might have had such a large sum of
8 money on his person?
9 A. Yes, he could even have more.
10 Q. Can you say why he might have had such a sum?
11 A. Yes, because he had always to face the requests of the
12 clients of the hotel.
13 Q. Are you saying that he would have money to do things for
14 clients of the hotel?
15 A. Certainly.
16 Q. What kind of things?
17 A. Shopping. He went already to a department store -- to
18 both department stores in Paris, Galeries Lafayette and
19 Printemps. He told me some stories about that.
20 Q. Were you aware of whether he ever received large cash
21 tips at work?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. M Paul's mother is recorded as telling the British
24 police that Henri Paul was often given tips as large as
25 5,000 francs; is that something you can comment on?

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1 A. That's feasible.
2 Q. Now, in terms of his other financial affairs, were you
3 aware that he traded in stocks and shares?
4 A. No, not as far as I know.
5 Q. Were you aware that he owned a studio flat which he
6 rented to a student?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In your view, did he have extravagant tastes or large
9 outgoings?
10 A. No, most of his expenses were for the plane.
11 Q. Is that for the flying lessons that, as we heard, cost
12 about 1,000 francs an hour?
13 A. It's not flying lessons, it's flying rental.
14 Q. I see, but it's those trips out, perhaps once a month or
15 less regularly?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, turning to another subject, were you aware whether
18 Henri Paul had any contact with the French security
19 services and with the embassies of other countries in
20 the course of his work?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. M Klein has told these inquests that hotel security
23 would have such contacts perfectly legitimately. From
24 your point of view, did you think that Henri Paul
25 regarded these contacts as a legitimate part of the

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1 ordinary course of his work?
2 A. Yes, absolutely. He had contacts to manage with the
3 foreign embassies; for instance, when there were VIPs
4 coming from foreign countries who wanted to have
5 weapons, he had contacts to deal with all these things.
6 Q. There have been suggestions made in the press and the
7 like that Henri Paul was working for one country's
8 security service in an improper or extracurricular way.
9 Is that something you can comment on?
10 A. Yes, because the press is not honest regarding this
11 topic. When I did interviews telling the press that my
12 friend, Henri Paul, had contacts with the foreign secret
13 services for the course of his work, the "for the course
14 of his work" is always forgotten and they were only
15 keeping the contacts with the foreign services.
16 Q. So as far as you were aware, knowing Henri Paul well,
17 you are very firmly of the view, are you, that he didn't
18 have any improper or extracurricular connections with
19 any security services?
20 A. As far as I know, these contacts were only professional
21 contacts.
22 Q. Now, Henri Paul's parents have told the British police
23 that they don't believe he had any extracurricular work
24 for foreign or French security services. So is it right
25 that you agree with the position of the Paul family?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, turning to the days immediately preceding
3 Henri Paul's death, Friday 29th August 1997, do you
4 remember having seen Henri Paul on that day?
5 A. I don't remember.
6 Q. Saturday 30th August 1997, I think you played tennis as
7 usual with Henri Paul on that Saturday morning?
8 A. Yes, absolutely.
9 Q. I think that the court was booked for 10 o'clock in the
10 morning?
11 A. Yes, absolutely.
12 Q. And then, after your game, you had a drink with him and
13 he had a sandwich to take away?
14 A. Yes, and I drove him back home.
15 Q. While you were with him that day, did he drink any
16 alcohol?
17 A. Absolutely not.
18 Q. At that time of day, were you aware whether he was
19 working in the Ritz that afternoon?
20 A. Yes, he informed me about that.
21 Q. Did he tell you when his working hours would be that
22 day?
23 A. No, he just told me that he had to pick up the Princess
24 of Wales and Dodi at Le Bourget Airport.
25 Q. Were you personally aware what he did after that, before

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1 he died?
2 A. Absolutely not.
3 Q. Have you ever heard from friends about any contact they
4 may have had with him between when you saw him and when
5 he died?
6 A. Neither.
7 Q. Did he tell you about any plans he may have had for
8 later in the day, after work?
9 A. Neither.
10 Q. After his death, I think you went in his apartment
11 a number of times?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Roughly how many days after he died did you first go
14 into his apartment?
15 A. It was with his parents.
16 Q. Did you have the key or did they?
17 A. Yes, I remember well, they had the key.
18 Q. When you first went into the flat, was it tidy?
19 A. It was totally clean.
20 Q. There were two searches by the police of the flat, one
21 on 3rd September and one on 9th September.
22 A. That's possible.
23 Q. I think you were present for the second of those,
24 a little over a week after he died?
25 A. Yes, that's possible.

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1 Q. Had you been in the apartment between when he died and
2 that second search?
3 A. That's possible. I had the key all the time. I was
4 picking up the mail in the mailbox.
5 Q. Now, the first search on 3rd September revealed a
6 bottle of Martini and a bottle of Champagne in the
7 fridge.
8 A. That's possible.
9 Q. Then, in the second search, there were recorded a large
10 number of other bottles of drink in the lobby, both on
11 a table and on some cupboard shelving.
12 A. I don't share this feeling. The number of bottles were
13 totally normal.
14 Q. No, I am not suggesting that they weren't. Do you
15 remember yourself whether Henri Paul had a number of
16 bottles of aperitifs on a table in the lobby?
17 A. Yes, I remember. It was a table that you could open up
18 and the bottles were inside.
19 Q. Now, from your being in the flat in the week after he
20 died, were any changes made to the flat at any time or
21 anything removed or put in, as far as you know?
22 A. I didn't think so.
23 You forgot to tell me about the 240 Coca-Cola cans
24 that we found there.
25 Q. Okay. Also the police found there quite a number of

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1 different medications, and one was a paracetamol
2 medication specifically for children. Can you think of
3 any children --
4 A. Maybe it was something which was remaining from the
5 Samantha period.
6 Q. Can you think of any children Henri Paul might have had
7 regular contact with in the months before he died?
8 A. I don't know.
9 MR HOUGH: Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
10 There will be questions from others.
11 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Can you just help me about one
12 thing: do you see Dr Melo at all these days?
13 A. No.
14 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Have you any idea where Dr Melo
15 lives? We have been trying to contact her.
16 A. Certainly. Her practice office is still at the same
17 place.
18 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Could you give the details to the
19 lady, Ms Gaffney, who is sitting somewhere near you,
20 over there, because she will then be able to trace her.
21 A. I do not have them, but it's certainly in the Yellow
22 Book.
23 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you. Mr Mansfield?
24 Questions from MR MANSFIELD
25 MR MANSFIELD: Yes, please.

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1 Good afternoon. My name is Michael Mansfield.
2 I represent Mohamed Al Fayed and I have a few questions.
3 I am sorry, it's a long time ago, and I appreciate these
4 events were distressing for you.
5 If the questions are too detailed and you cannot
6 remember, please say so.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. First of all, can you help? Do you recall, in
9 August 1997, how many mobile phones Henri Paul had?
10 A. Two, I think.
11 Q. Two.
12 A. Maybe three.
13 Q. Right. Can you remember anything about any of the
14 three, what makes they were, what they looked like or
15 anything?
16 A. There were two black phones, regular ones, standard
17 ones, and one that you could close. It was a Motorola,
18 I think.
19 Q. Did you have then the telephone numbers for those three
20 phones or did you only have one of them?
21 A. Only one. The other numbers were from the Ritz Hotel.
22 Q. Yes, I understand. I am going to put a number to you.
23 I am sorry that it's very detailed, but you may just
24 remember. Was the number that you had a number that
25 ended "0275"?

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1 A. I can't tell you right now. I would have to check in
2 a former diary.
3 Q. Very well. You went to Henri Paul's flat very soon
4 after the crash with his parents, did you?
5 A. I think two days or three days afterwards, the time for
6 them to get in Paris.
7 Q. Right. The reason I ask is: did you listen to the
8 answerphone on his landline in the flat?
9 A. Yes. I should have noted, by the way, that. It was
10 just phone calls from friends.
11 Q. Yes. Did he have more than one landline in the flat?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Right. When you listened -- they were calls from within
14 France -- can you remember now roughly how many were
15 there?
16 A. Between three to four.
17 Q. Can you help, were those three to four all calls that
18 had been recorded before the crash?
19 A. I think.
20 Q. Now, on one occasion, you remembered that one of them
21 was a message from somebody called Jean-Luc Moraire; is
22 that right?
23 A. Yes, absolutely.
24 Q. I am sorry to press on this. There are reasons for
25 seeing who rang. "Hi, it's Jean-Luc on the line. I'll

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1 call back later".
2 A. That's possible, yes. He was another close friend of
3 Henri.
4 Q. Another close friend. Thank you. I am sorry again it's
5 so long ago, but have you at any time remembered any of
6 the other messages on the phone?
7 A. I didn't pay attention to those messages because they
8 were not significant.
9 Q. No. I understand that. At that time, where did
10 Jean-Luc Morere live? Was it in Paris, for example?
11 A. He was living in Paris at that time. Now he is living
12 in Boulogne, in the suburb, and we still see each other.
13 Q. Just dealing with the answer machine: the tape was there
14 for you to listen to. Did you remove the tape?
15 A. I didn't remove anything.
16 Q. Can you help: do you know whether the police removed the
17 tape?
18 A. I don't think so.
19 Q. Right. You have been asked today whether, after the
20 crash, in the days that followed, you asked your friends
21 and Henri Paul's friends about where he had been in the
22 evening? Did you do that?
23 A. No, that remained a mystery.
24 Q. I will be particular. Have you asked your friends and
25 his friends if anybody had seen him between 7 and 10 in

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1 the evening before the crash?
2 A. No. I was the only very close friend living in Paris,
3 but if information was coming from another circle of
4 friends, I would not have known.
5 Q. I want to ask you about a particular friend to see if
6 you know the name: a police lieutenant, Bernard Gisbert?
7 A. No.
8 Q. You have never heard of him?
9 A. Henri was a guy having several sets of friends, and
10 I was part of the friends from Brittany, and it was
11 possible that he had friends that I didn't know. But he
12 was certainly not a close friend.
13 Q. Well, I am only reading from a statement that this
14 gentleman has made. He had known him since 1993,
15 particularly with regard to flying.
16 A. That's possible.
17 Q. All right. The reason I ask is that he says he rang the
18 landline on Saturday the 30th and left a message. Do
19 you remember whether one of the messages you listened to
20 was in fact from him?
21 A. It could be part of the list of messages that I picked
22 up. If he had said, "Hello, I am Bernard", I didn't pay
23 any attention to it. It could be possible.
24 Q. Final question on landlines: at any time in France with
25 the French police or at any time with the British

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1 police, have you ever been played the tape of the
2 messages?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Now, a different topic, if I may. Henri Paul's
5 responsibility, as you understood it, was for security
6 at the Ritz, at Villa Windsor, liaising with St Tropez,
7 and there is one more you have not mentioned, and that
8 is the apartment at Arsene Houssaye as well; do you
9 agree?
10 A. I didn't know that he had to deal with that.
11 Q. You see, we know that he organised overnight security
12 and daytime security for this visit at Rue Arsene
13 Houssaye; you didn't know he had done that?
14 A. No, I didn't know it.
15 Q. Right. But in general he would be responsible for not
16 just the security at the various places, but also for
17 the security of movement between the various places in
18 Paris; is that right, as you understood it?
19 A. Yes, certainly.
20 Q. Is this also right: that in his capacity as acting head
21 of security from time to time, he would have contact
22 with both French security services and security services
23 relating to other countries whose dignitaries, diplomats
24 or whatever were coming to France?
25 A. Yes, certainly.

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1 Q. In particular, you gave the British police an example of
2 how he might help. May I just, as you don't have the
3 statement -- sir, it's page 3 at the top -- read slowly
4 in English the example that you gave the British police?
5 Sorry, you do have it. It begins in French "Racontant
6 d'autres anecdotes ..." I will read it in English so the
7 jury can follow, and would you follow in French?
8 "Another anecdote Henri Paul mentioned was that by
9 telling the security services about the visit of certain
10 persons, if the guest was having difficulty in obtaining
11 a landing permission for a particular airport, the
12 security services could facilitate their arrival. Even
13 if the French Government didn't particularly want the
14 client in France for a political reason, by being
15 informed and facilitating their arrival, they would know
16 where this person would be staying. Henri Paul was
17 confidential about his work and didn't mention any
18 names."
19 Now, is that an accurate recollection of what he,
20 Henri Paul, told you?
21 A. No, these are general things, just stories that he was
22 telling me.
23 Q. Sorry, you may have misunderstood. That is an accurate
24 recollection that you have of what Henri Paul told you?
25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Thank you. Henri Paul, as you have said, had great
2 respect and regard both for Mohamed Al Fayed and for
3 Dodi Al Fayed, did he not?
4 A. I already confirmed it.
5 Q. The reason I ask is the next question: if, on the
6 evening of 30th August 1997, Henri Paul had been
7 approached on behalf of the British security services
8 for information about the movement of Princess Diana in
9 Paris between the Ritz, Villa Windsor or the apartment
10 in Arsene Houssaye, in order to better protect them,
11 Henri Paul would have been willing to provide that
12 information, wouldn't he?
13 A. I ignored -- I mean, I can't tell you that. I don't
14 know.
15 Q. All right. Just be careful. I am not suggesting that
16 you know, but you were asked whether he would, for
17 example, be loyal to Mohamed Al Fayed and Dodi Al Fayed
18 and you said "yes". You have also agreed that he would
19 assist the security services of foreign countries if
20 they wanted to know the movements of anybody they were
21 concerned about staying at the Ritz or moving between
22 the Ritz and other places.
23 A. Yes, of course. I mean, it's that opposite. I confirm
24 that Henri Paul would never have acted in an unloyal way
25 to Mr Al Fayed or Mr Klein.

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1 Q. But if he had been misled by those acting on behalf of
2 a security service, he might not have known what he was
3 getting into; do you follow?
4 A. No, he was much too clever for that.
5 Q. Do you think he ever misled you?
6 A. Never.
7 Q. I want to ask you a little about his finances, if I may.
8 Did you know he had a large number of bank accounts?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How many did you think he had?
11 A. I think he had four banks.
12 Q. Yes, how many accounts?
13 A. He had several savings accounts in each of these banks.
14 Q. Yes. How many do you think he had?
15 A. Maybe 10.
16 Q. Yes, the total number, in fact, is about 15 accounts.
17 A. No, I don't think so. We should have mixed the number
18 of banks and the number of accounts because you may have
19 many accounts in one single bank because they make you
20 open several accounts for savings, for deposits --
21 Q. Certainly, but 15 accounts you don't think possible, do
22 you?
23 A. I don't think he could have 15 banking accounts.
24 Q. So if he did -- and I am not asking you to verify
25 because you don't know -- if he did have 15, you didn't

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1 know about those?
2 A. No.
3 Q. I want to ask you carefully because you have been asked
4 this afternoon and I want to be clear. The bank balance
5 of 1.67 million, were you aware of that total before his
6 death?
7 A. I knew he had money, but he was quite discreet on his
8 banking position.
9 Q. Is there any reason that you can remember from 1997 --
10 and I want to ask you about a particular period of time,
11 and the time I want to ask you is this: the months of
12 June, July and August 1997, did he have any problems in
13 that period?
14 A. He didn't feel like having any problem; maybe still
15 recollections of his love affair with the lady, but he
16 had no specific problem in his life, no health problem.
17 Q. It has been put to you today that in the last eight
18 months, something like 400,000 francs went into his
19 accounts. Did you know that before his death?
20 A. Absolutely not.
21 Q. A last question on this, and it may be you do not know:
22 in June, July and August, three months, in each of those
23 months quantities of 80,000 francs -- 40,000 at
24 a time -- went into three different accounts. Did you
25 know that?

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1 A. I saw that afterwards.
2 Q. You saw that afterwards?
3 A. After his death.
4 Q. Yes, I appreciate afterwards, but you did not know
5 beforehand?
6 A. No, of course not.
7 Q. Was he doing any work in those three months that could
8 explain those kinds of sums?
9 A. No. I think that these were significant tips that he
10 received that he was allocating in his various accounts
11 because it was certainly not on his tax returns.
12 Q. How do you know that?
13 A. It's an assumption.
14 Q. Did you see his tax returns?
15 A. Afterwards, of course.
16 Q. So these sums of money, your recollection is, were not
17 declared on his tax returns?
18 A. Yes, of course.
19 Q. These are sums of money -- so that it's clear in English
20 terms, roughly speaking, we are dealing with £8,000
21 a month, £24,000 in the three months. These are not
22 sums of money that come from tips, are they?
23 A. I think these were tips.
24 Q. Is that an assumption?
25 A. It's the explanation I feel is sound because I do not

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1 have any other explanation.
2 Q. I understand that. You see, we have heard from the Ritz
3 that this is not the kind of tip that he would be
4 getting as head of security. Please think about this.
5 It was not his role to do shopping on behalf of clients
6 at the Ritz. Maybe the concierge, maybe the porter,
7 maybe someone else, but not the head of security. Do
8 you follow?
9 A. He had certainly friendly relationships with some of the
10 clients.
11 Q. Maybe some. But you agree these are very regular
12 amounts in these three months, aren't they?
13 A. I can note, yes.
14 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield, we have reached the
15 point, I think, where we have to break this afternoon.
16 How much longer will you be?
17 MR MANSFIELD: Very little. Maybe five minutes.
18 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you. Quarter of an hour,
19 members of the jury.
20 (2.55 pm)
21 (A short break)
22 (3.10 pm)
23 (Jury present)
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield.
25 MR MANSFIELD: Thank you.

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1 Just one more set of questions from me. Could you
2 please kindly turn to page 10 of your statement that you
3 have there?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You will see there are a list of names at the top of the
6 page.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Then there is a paragraph that begins, "En plus de
9 ce..."
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I want to adopt the same procedure as before. Would you
12 kindly follow it in French?
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. I will read in English so the jury know what it is.
15 Firstly, is it right, before I read the paragraph, that
16 you were shown by the British police a list of names and
17 addresses and telephone numbers that came from documents
18 found in Henri Paul's flat? Do you remember that?
19 A. Yes, that's right.
20 Q. Thank you. This paragraph is in addition to that, and
21 I will read it:
22 "In addition to those on the list that clearly
23 relate to the police, names listed with 'CIAT' refer to
24 local police stations, 'COMMS' denotes the rank of
25 Commissaire, 'COL' denotes Colonel de Police, 'RG'

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1 denotes the 'Renseignements Generaux' [and in English we
2 have 'French equivalent of a Borough Intelligence
3 Unit'], 'DST' denotes 'Direction de la Surveillance du
4 Territoire' [French equivalent to MI5]."
5 Do you remember seeing all those initials in the
6 documents you were shown?
7 A. Yes, it seems to me.
8 MR MANSFIELD: Thank you very much. That's all I ask.
9 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you. Mr Keen?
10 Questions from MR KEEN
11 MR KEEN: Good afternoon, Mr Garrec. My name is
12 Richard Keen and I appear at the inquest as counsel on
13 behalf of the parents of the late Henri Paul.
14 I do not want to repeat your evidence at length,
15 Mr Garrec, but I would like just to consider a number of
16 matters. You were a close friend of Henri Paul's for
17 20 years or so before his death?
18 A. Yes, that's right.
19 Q. Indeed, for a period, I think in the early 1980s, you
20 shared an apartment with him in the Rue des Petits
21 Champs.
22 A. Yes, and before that even he lived at my place between
23 1976 and 1980, and I went to a provincial town, and when
24 I came back to Paris, I stayed with him.
25 Q. Thank you. There are certain particular features of

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1 Henri Paul's behaviour that have been scrutinised, but
2 before we look at those, I would just like to consider
3 for a moment the man that he was and that you knew.
4 When you were interviewed by the
5 Metropolitan Police, you gave a detailed statement, and
6 before you finished, you wanted to say -- and you said
7 this to them -- if you have the statement, it is at
8 page 10. It was a very short and simple observation.
9 "Henri Paul was a nice man and you would have been
10 happy to have him as a friend."
11 A. Yes, absolutely.
12 Q. And of the 20 years you knew him, was he a loyal friend
13 and a decent man?
14 A. Yes, he was a very loyal friend. He was very
15 knowledgeable about plenty of things, he had a good
16 sense of humour, he was very pleasant to be around.
17 Q. Of course, after the crash, people came to ask you about
18 particular features of his behaviour, and, in
19 particular, you were repeatedly asked about Henri Paul
20 and the matter of alcohol, were you not?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I think, as you told the Metropolitan Police and had
23 previously told the French police:
24 "Henri Paul wasn't teetotal. He was just normal,
25 a bon vivant. His consumption of alcohol was convivial,

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1 but this doesn't mean that he would let things
2 degenerate."
3 Is that an accurate expression of what you knew of
4 Henri Paul.
5 A. Yes, I would maintain the statement, even though, you
6 know, there might be times when you drink excessively --
7 there can be times like that, but otherwise, yes,
8 I would say the same thing.
9 Q. So he was someone who would be convivial, who would
10 sometimes go to a party and take a drink, but who drank
11 just as you would drink and as others would normally
12 drink; is that your understanding and recollection?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You were asked particularly, early in your evidence,
15 about occasions when Henri Paul might drive after
16 a party. What you said was:
17 "On occasions he might drive after a party, having
18 drunk. It was not too much. He was not drunk."
19 Is that a fair reflection of your recollection,
20 Mr Garrec?
21 A. Yes, that's my recollection, yes.
22 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Keen, it's not a very
23 profitable use of time simply to repeat, in questions
24 and answers, evidence that's already been given, and we
25 are pressed for time this afternoon.

158

1 MR KEEN: Let me make the point, sir, because it's
2 an important one.
3 Mr Garrec, before you began your evidence this
4 afternoon, a lawyer for the Metropolitan Police told
5 this court and this jury that you had said in
6 a statement that Henri Paul would drive and I quote --
7 for the note, sir, this is at page 28, lines 9 to 15 --
8 "having consumed considerable amounts of alcohol".
9 Now, Mr Garrec, I have looked at all your statements
10 and I can't see you saying that anywhere. Have you ever
11 said that to the Metropolitan Police or anyone else?
12 A. No, not at all. I think it's a lie.
13 MR KEEN: That was the point, sir, I was seeking to bring
14 out.
15 Now can I come on to the day preceding the crash,
16 which was 30th August 1997. We know already that that
17 was the date on which Henri Paul had to work because he
18 had to go to Le Bourget to meet Dodi Al Fayed and
19 Princess Diana.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. If you turn to page 3 of your statement to the
22 Metropolitan Police, you have recorded there the events
23 of that day as you know them. Do you see a paragraph
24 that begins "On Saturday, 30th August 1997 ..."?
25 A. Yes.

159

1 Q. Now, M Garrec, while you read that whole paragraph,
2 I will read out in English, if I may, so that the jury
3 here can hear what you said and you can remind yourself
4 of what you have said.
5 "On Saturday, 30th August 1997, I drove to
6 Henri Paul's flat and collected him to go and play
7 tennis. From memory, I thought that this was at about
8 8.30 am, but having seen the record of a telephone call
9 made from my home address to Henri Paul's address ... at
10 9.25 am, I must have been running later and told him
11 I would be there soon as our court reservation was at
12 10 am. We went via the Cours Albert 1er and drove
13 through the Alma Underpass as we did every week. I can
14 categorically say that there was no speed radar trap at
15 this location in either direction and in fact I have
16 never seen a speed radar trap at this venue during my
17 whole time in Paris. This is another claim falsely made
18 by the press after Henri Paul's death. It took us
19 30 minutes to arrive at our distinction. We played
20 tennis for about an hour, each winning a set 6-0 and
21 6-2, then we returned to Rue Croix des Petits Champs,
22 near Henri Paul's apartment, to have a drink in
23 an old-style Paris bistro, called 'Cafe Pelican'. Henri
24 drank a Coca-Cola and took a Camembert sandwich to go,
25 as he didn't have time to eat as he had to go to work.

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1 In 1997, the owner was called Julia, but she has moved
2 on. The venue has a new name and a new owner."
3 Now, Mr Garrec, is that an accurate account of you
4 seeing Henri Paul on 30th August 1997?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And having played tennis with him in the morning, he had
7 a Coca-Cola and, because he was going on to work, he
8 took a Camembert sandwich which he didn't actually have
9 time to eat at the time; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, correct.
11 Q. Would you agree that a Camembert sandwich to go does not
12 actually qualify as a good lunch with wine?
13 A. No, I would agree.
14 Q. It may seem a strange question, Mr Garrec, but then this
15 inquest sometimes hears some strange evidence.
16 Did you play tennis with Henri Paul every week,
17 Mr Garrec?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is it correct that, in going to the tennis courts where
20 you played, you would, as you did every week, drive by
21 the Cours Albert 1er and through the Alma Underpass or
22 the Alma Tunnel?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So would it be fair to infer that this Alma Tunnel,
25 Alma Underpass, was a part of the roadway in Paris with

161

1 which Henri Paul was extremely familiar?
2 A. Yes, especially because also, every time we went to
3 Brittany, we went through the Alma Tunnel too.
4 Q. Thank you. In July of 1997, you and your family and
5 a number of others were on holiday in Spain with,
6 amongst others, Henri Paul; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I think you have already told us that, during that
9 period, Henri Paul drank convivially; is that right?
10 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, you flipped a page at the same
11 time so I couldn't hear.
12 MR KEEN: I am sorry. I think you said that during the
13 period of that holiday, Henri Paul, like others on
14 holiday, would drink occasionally?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You say in your statement that he played tennis and he
17 played chess?
18 A. Yes. We did all of that.
19 Q. You say that he appeared a little stressed?
20 A. Yes, certainly, because he had plenty of contact with
21 his workplace.
22 Q. Then when the Metropolitan Police asked you, you say:
23 "You have asked me if Henri Paul drank a lot during
24 this holiday. On one occasion during the week I saw him
25 a little more gay, but otherwise he did not drink

162

1 excessively."
2 Is that accurate?
3 A. Yes, absolutely.
4 Q. So as I understand it, Mr Garrec, the Henri Paul you
5 knew was a conscientious and decent man?
6 A. Absolutely.
7 Q. Who enjoyed regularly flying an aeroplane?
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Keen, we have been down this
9 road. Really, we have got to get on. The counsel to
10 the inquest brings out the evidence, and if there is
11 anything that has not been covered, that's important, it
12 can be dealt with by counsel for the interested persons,
13 but we cannot go over and over and over the same ground.
14 There are witnesses who are waiting here who will have
15 to go away yet again.
16 MR KEEN: Well, I can't answer for that, sir, because
17 I didn't bring Mr Davies here for today.
18 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: No. But you have, amongst
19 others, signed up for these inquests finishing within
20 the prescribed period.
21 MR KEEN: At the same time, sir, the reputation of the late
22 Henri Paul is being traduced and one is entitled to
23 answer.
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: That has all been covered,
25 I think. If there is anything new, by all means put it.

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1 MR KEEN: In summary, Mr Garrec, was there ever, in the
2 20 years you knew Henri Paul, any indication that he was
3 an alcoholic or abused alcohol?
4 A. No.
5 Q. I think you told us, at pain of repetition, that any
6 suggestion that he drove having consumed considerable
7 amounts of alcohol is a lie; is that right?
8 A. Yes that's right.
9 MR KEEN: Thank you, sir. No further questions.
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you. Mr Croxford?
11 MR CROXFORD: No, sir. Mr Keen has covered those matters
12 that Mr Hough did not introduce.
13 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Macleod?
14 Questions by MR MACLEOD
15 MR MACLEOD: Mr Garrec, my name is Duncan Macleod and I ask
16 questions on behalf of the Commissioner of London
17 Police.
18 First of all, can you confirm that Mr Henri Paul was
19 in full employment all his life?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And he never married or had any dependent children?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Dealing with his smoking habit, can you confirm that the
24 cigarillos that he smoked were unfiltered?
25 A. Yes.

164

1 Q. Turning to his financial position and the question of
2 tips, can I ask you, please, to turn to page 7 at the
3 bottom of that page, and the paragraph begins in
4 English, "As regards Henri Paul's finances ..."
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I would like you to read in French to yourself, please,
7 the paragraph beginning "As regards Henri Paul's
8 finances ..." down to "... this explains the sums of
9 money that Henri Paul had at the time of his death."
10 (Witness reads paragraph aloud in French)
11 Could that be translated, please?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
13 "As far as the finances of Henri Paul are concerned,
14 I know that the Hotel Ritz obviously paid him a salary,
15 but I think that he also received tips from customers.
16 Henri Paul told me once that certain customers or
17 members of the royal families who would stay at the
18 hotel would give him very high tips, 1,000 or 10,000
19 francs; the sums were without limits. It depended on
20 the help he would give or the organisation he would have
21 done. VIPs were obsessed with their safety and
22 Henri Paul helped them. I think that that explains the
23 amount of money that Henri Paul had at the time of his
24 death."
25 MR MACLEOD: Over the page, I think it's right you say this

165

1 also:
2 "Despite his closeness [that's Henri Paul's
3 closeness] to Franck Klein, it is probable that he would
4 not have told anyone at work about his tips."
5 Is that right?
6 A. Yes, it's very likely.
7 Q. Turning to the subject of the number of accounts that
8 Henri Paul maintained, I think it's right that you
9 worked for 17 years at the Ministry of Interior in
10 Paris; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You were working in finance, dealing with taxes and
13 personnel?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. If I could ask you, please, to turn to page 8 of your
16 witness statement. It's a paragraph two-thirds of the
17 way down the page beginning in English, "It has been
18 suggested in the press ..." Do you have it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I will read it in English first:
21 "It has been suggested in the press that Henri Paul
22 had 20 accounts. This is not true. In France, when you
23 open an account at a bank, the bank creates sub-accounts
24 which are linked to the first for savings or your house
25 or simply to keep track of your funds. Given this and

166

1 my experience working in financial matters, I can tell
2 you that a large number of accounts are not something
3 that is unusual."
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is that an accurate summary of your experience of how
6 people manage their banking accounts in France?
7 A. I could not make a general statement, but it does exist.
8 Q. Moving onto the topic of the cash that Henri Paul had on
9 his person when he died, do you deal with that at the
10 bottom of page 8 of your statement, the last paragraph
11 beginning "Henri Paul had recounted to me ..." Do you
12 have that paragraph?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I will read it in English:
15 "Henri Paul had recounted to me that he had
16 accompanied Ritz clients from the Emirates to the
17 Galeries Lafayette, a Paris department store, and paid
18 for items for them upfront. He said that these people
19 were the type to buy a whole rail of clothes."
20 Was that something that Henri Paul actually
21 recounted to you which required him to have cash on his
22 person in a large amount?
23 A. Yes, absolutely.
24 Q. Dealing with Henri Paul and his conviviality, could
25 I ask you please to turn to page 5 of your witness

167

1 statement? Can I ask you this: when Henri Paul was not
2 at work, did he enjoy visiting bars and having a drink
3 and talking to people at those bars?
4 A. Yes, totally.
5 Q. Looking at how you expressed it at the bottom of that
6 page 5, there is a paragraph, the last paragraph,
7 beginning, "Henri Paul liked English bars ..." Do you
8 have that paragraph?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I will read it in English:
11 "Henri Paul liked English bars and his English was
12 good. In the 1980s he would frequent the 'Willy's Wine
13 Bar' situated in Rue des Petits Champs. He also
14 frequented Harry's Bar in Rue Daunou. Henri Paul also
15 used to go to the 'Bourgogne', just downstairs from his
16 flat, that has since become a Japanese restaurant.
17 Henri Paul did not have any close neighbours that he
18 would call friends in his block, but he was the sort of
19 person that could go to any of these bars and start
20 talking to anyone."
21 Would that be accurate?
22 A. Well, "anyone" is a bit excessive. The person would
23 have to be of some interest.
24 Q. Yes, I understand. Dealing with the movements of money
25 in and out of Henri Paul's bank account or bank

168

1 accounts, are you in a position today to give any
2 detailed evidence about how those movements of monies
3 occurred over a period of time?
4 A. No, I could not do that. I was not informed at all.
5 MR MACLEOD: Sir, we will be having a witness dealing with
6 that.
7 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
8 MR MACLEOD: Two more points. The first is to deal with
9 when Henri Paul used to go to fetes or festivals and
10 birthday parties. I would like to ask you about that,
11 please.
12 Could I ask Mr Foley to put up [INQ0006744 - read out in court]?
13 I would ask you to look at page 4 of your witness
14 statement. Towards the bottom of page 4, there are two
15 paragraphs beginning, first, "Henri Paul was a stocky
16 man of about 80 kilograms ...", and the very next
17 paragraph. I want to look at this with you in some
18 detail, please, in the light of the matters raised by
19 Mr Keen. I will read it in English:
20 "Henri Paul was a stocky man of about 80 kilograms.
21 He could have a few alcoholic drinks, but I never saw
22 him drunk."
23 This is the part I want to ask you about:
24 "At fetes or birthdays, when he drank a little more,
25 you were unable to tell this from his eyes or face or

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1 the way he stood. On those occasions [that is at fetes
2 or birthdays] he might have four Ricards, and later in
3 the evening a few beers. When Henri Paul had a drink,
4 he was gay, that is, he was funny."
5 Is that accurate?
6 A. Yes, I confirm.
7 Q. So when he was at a celebration like a fete or
8 a birthday, he might drink alcohol in the quantity of
9 four Ricards and a few beers?
10 A. Yes, of course.
11 Q. Then looking at the next paragraph, it begins:
12 "After fetes, we normally stayed over at the venue.
13 In Lorient ..."
14 Is that because you would both be drinking?
15 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I thought we had had this bit
16 already.
17 MR MACLEOD: It's the point about whether he drives having
18 consumed the type of level of alcohol referred to in
19 this witness statement. I think this matter, it is
20 important that it's correct.
21 "After fetes [when he would drink that quantity of
22 alcohol] we normally stayed over at the venue in
23 Lorient."
24 Is that because you had been drinking?
25 A. Yes. When it was possible we preferred to stay there.

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1 Q. It goes on:
2 "... when there was an easy 3-kilometre route home,
3 we sometimes drove home. Henri Paul is someone who
4 could always control himself."
5 This is what I want to ask you about.
6 "There had been occasions [this is after he had been
7 drinking at fetes] when he had driven after having drunk
8 during the evening, but this did not affect his
9 driving."
10 A. Yes, I confirm.
11 Q. So is it correct that on occasions when he was at fetes
12 where he may have drunk four Ricards and a few beers, he
13 would, on occasion, drive home having consumed that
14 amount of alcohol, but without mishap?
15 A. Well, I have sworn that I would say the truth.
16 Q. Thank you very much. The final point -- can I ask this
17 question of the translator first of all? Could you
18 please ask the witness, when he was being asked
19 questions by Mr Mansfield about whether Henri Paul was
20 being active with the British secret services, whether
21 he said this phrase when Mr Mansfield asked those
22 questions because I don't think it came out on the
23 translation or on the transcript. So when Mr Mansfield
24 asked Mr Garrec about Henri Paul participating with the
25 British secret services, did he say, "Il va un peu loin,

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1 la"?
2 A. Yes, because I thought that it was a bit excessive in
3 the sense that I don't believe that my friend was
4 disloyal to his workplace and to the people who employed
5 him.
6 Q. Just so we have it accurately on the transcript -- this
7 is a question addressed to you, Mr Translator -- is "Il
8 va un peu loin, la", translated as "he is a bit
9 far-fetched"?
10 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
11 MR MACLEOD: Sir, that's all I ask.
12 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, may I make it clear, unless there has
13 been a misunderstanding, I was not suggesting in the
14 questions I put that there was any disloyalty; quite the
15 reverse.
16 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Hough?
17 MR HOUGH: Nothing further from me. Thank you very much,
18 Mr Garrec.
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you very much, M Garrec.
20 That's all we require. We are very grateful to you for
21 coming along and for helping us with these matters.
22 A. Thank you.
23 (The witness withdrew)
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mlle Pujol is next.
25 Mlle Pujol, can you hear me?

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1 THE WITNESS: Yes.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We are very grateful to you for
3 coming. I appreciate that it may be distressing to
4 think back over these years and we will try and ensure
5 that you are there for as short a time as possible.
6 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
7 MR HOUGH: Could Mlle Pujol make an oath or affirmation?
8 MLLE LAURENCE PUJOL (affirmed)
9 (Evidence via videolink) (Interpreted)
10 Questions from MR HOUGH
11 Q. Is your name Laurence Pujol?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I ask questions on behalf of the Coroner here. I think
14 you had a relationship with Henri Paul from 1990 to
15 1995?
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. You made a statement about that to the French police in
18 the middle of September 1997. Do you recall that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Have you ever given any other interviews to anybody else
21 about that matter?
22 A. No -- a journalist once.
23 Q. Have you ever received or are you expecting in the
24 future to receive any payment for your account? That's
25 a general question we are asking of all witnesses.

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1 A. No, not at all.
2 Q. Thank you. I think you worked as a member of office
3 staff in the Ritz from December 1989 to March 1992 when,
4 you were made redundant?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I think you have a daughter called Samantha?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you tell us in what year she was born?
9 A. 1986.
10 Q. When you joined the Ritz, I think you met Henri Paul,
11 who had been deputy head of security for a few years?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Then in 1990 I think you started going out together, and
14 you moved into Henri Paul's apartment very shortly after
15 the start of that relationship?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. At that time, he lived in a small flat, and shortly
18 after you moved in, you moved to a larger flat on the
19 same road in the centre of Paris?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I think you moved out of the flat in 1992, but continued
22 to have a relationship with M Paul until 1995?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I think you last saw him in the autumn of 1995 and last
25 had phone contact with him in July 1996?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When did he last have any contact with your daughter, as
3 far as you know?
4 A. I don't know really. I think he was always trying to
5 get some news, to know how she was doing, but I didn't
6 know about it.
7 Q. Do you know if he saw her personally after the two of
8 you split up?
9 A. I think so, but I am not sure.
10 Q. You knew about his work at the Ritz. I think he had
11 a very good relationship with the president, Mr Klein?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I think that some other members of staff, you say in
14 your statement, resented that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You say in your statement that he was very careful to
17 give satisfaction to Mr Al Fayed, the owner?
18 A. Yes, he made sure he did a good job.
19 Q. In your view, was he loyal to the Ritz and to
20 Mr Al Fayed?
21 A. I think so.
22 Q. Did he speak to you in detail about his work and what he
23 had to do there while you were together with him?
24 A. No details, no.
25 Q. As to his character, I think that you say in your

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1 statement that he was a reserved and shy man whom you
2 initially took to be distant when you first met him?
3 A. Yes, but actually I think it was only towards me.
4 Q. In general terms, do you think that he was reserved and
5 shy or do you think he was more outgoing than that?
6 A. Well, I don't know that I could say "outgoing", but he
7 was very sociable.
8 Q. As to his hobbies, we have heard that he was a qualified
9 pilot and flew light aircraft regularly and that he was
10 an accomplished musician; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were you aware whether he had any extravagant tastes or
13 expensive outgoings?
14 A. Well, it depends. I think it's relative. What do you
15 call "extravagant"?
16 Q. Were you aware of anything he did regularly that was
17 particularly expensive?
18 A. I think the most expensive hobbies that he had was to
19 fly aircraft.
20 Q. Thank you. In terms of driving, I think he would
21 normally let you do the driving when you were together.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What was his attitude to wearing seatbelts in the car?
24 A. I had the bad habit of not wearing one and he would
25 always insist on my wearing it.

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1 Q. Was he a fast driver or a slow driver, in your
2 experience?
3 A. He was not at all a fast driver.
4 Q. Turning to alcohol, can you tell us briefly what his
5 drinking habits were?
6 A. Well, he was a normal drinker. You know, sometimes he
7 would drink an aperitif, during meals he would drink
8 water and on the occasion of a celebration he would
9 drink a little bit more. That's it.
10 Q. If he ever had a glass too much, how would his behaviour
11 be? Would it be the same as he normally was or
12 different?
13 A. Well, just like anybody, you know, his behaviour
14 changed, but he was rather funny, gay.
15 Q. In your statement, you used the phrase "faire le pitre",
16 "play the clown"; is that right?
17 A. Yes, because he was someone who liked to make people
18 laugh.
19 Q. But is this right: he generally remained in control even
20 if he had had a glass more than maybe he should have
21 done?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In your statement you make no mention of him ever having
24 any kind of alcohol problem when you were with him. Is
25 it right that he didn't have any problem of dependence

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1 while you were with him?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Yes, he didn't have any problem?
4 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, he didn't have any problem.
5 MR HOUGH: Thank you. From around June 1996, Henri Paul
6 began to be prescribed some medication to control
7 alcohol matters. Is that something he mentioned in his
8 last phone calls with you?
9 A. No, I became aware of it after the crash.
10 MR HOUGH: Thank you. Sir, those are my questions.
11 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you. Mr Mansfield?
12 MR MANSFIELD: No questions, sir, thank you.
13 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Keen?
14 Questions from MR KEEN
15 MR KEEN: Good afternoon, Mlle Pujol, I will be very short.
16 My name is Richard Keen. I am counsel on behalf of the
17 parents of the late Henri Paul. Do you have in front of
18 you the statement which you gave to the
19 Brigade Criminelle on 9th September 1997?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you turn to page 4 so we can see what you actually
22 said in response to enquiries about alcohol? At the top
23 of page 4, you said:
24 "In response to your question, Henri was not
25 a drinker."

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Was that accurate?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You went on to say, having referred to his occasional
5 drink, "Henri did not drink for drinking's sake".
6 I have it at the end of the next paragraph.
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. Again was that true and accurate?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. At the beginning of the next paragraph you told the
11 police:
12 "I have never seen him drunk, either at work or
13 anywhere else. I have seen him slightly merry at
14 parties that had nothing to do with his job."
15 Again, is that true and accurate?
16 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: You are picking pieces out of
17 this statement, Mr Keen, and not putting the whole
18 picture.
19 MR KEEN: With respect, sir, none of it was put to the
20 witness by your counsel, which is perhaps unfortunate.
21 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: The witness has given her
22 evidence, and if anything is going to be put, the whole
23 thing ought to be put rather than little bits.
24 MR KEEN: I shall do that, sir.
25 THE INTERPRETER: The witness said "Yes, it's accurate".

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1 MR KEEN: Thank you, but we will going back to the whole
2 paragraph:
3 "I have never seen him drunk, either at work or
4 anywhere else. I have seen him slightly merry at
5 parties that had nothing to do with his job. He liked
6 being in control of things and of himself too much to
7 get so drunk that he was no longer in control."
8 Was that a true and accurate statement when you gave
9 it, Mlle Pujol?
10 A. Yes, that's true.
11 Q. To quote the next whole paragraph:
12 "To reply to your question, Henri did not think he
13 was bigger or stronger when he was merry and anyway he
14 was normally confident in himself and in his own
15 abilities, and drinking, if anything, made him merry.
16 I should add that Henri was too fond of his hobbies,
17 such as flying, motorcycling and even his work
18 activities that do not mix with intemperance."
19 Again, was that a true and accurate statement when
20 you made it, Mlle Pujol?
21 A. Yes, it is accurate.
22 Q. Just to look to what he did drink on occasion -- and
23 this is at the top of the page:
24 "If he drank alcohol, it was at occasional meals
25 with other people because at home he drank water or soft

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1 drinks at meal times. He might have some wine with
2 a meal if we were in a restaurant."
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 MR KEEN: Thank you, Mlle Pujol. No further questions,
5 thank you, sir.
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Croxford?
7 MR CROXFORD: No, thank you, sir.
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Macleod?
9 MR MACLEOD: No, thank you, sir.
10 MR HOUGH: Nothing more from me, sir. Thank you very much,
11 Mlle Pujol and we are sorry that you have had to go
12 through this.
13 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you very much, we are very
14 grateful to you. That will be all.
15 (The witness withdrew)
16 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We can now close down the
17 videolink, and it will take I think a couple of minutes
18 to remove the screen from the witness box, so we had
19 better adjourn for five or six minutes now to do that.
20 (4.15 pm)
21 (A short break)
22 (4.18 pm)
23 (Jury present)
24 MR DAVID SEABORN DAVIES (continued)
25 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Sorry you have had such a long

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1 wait.
2 Questions from MR HILLIARD (continued)
3 MR HILLIARD: Mr Davies, we had got to the bit where you
4 were telling us that you had confirmed information you
5 had had about the holiday and about the investigation
6 that was going on concerning Mr Al Fayed, and then you
7 told us you had gone back to the Commissioner or to the
8 Commissioner for the first time.
9 Can you help about this: the investigation that was
10 going on, that -- is this right -- related to
11 an allegation of theft from a safe deposit box at
12 Harrods; do you remember?
13 A. That's what I remember or recall. There may have been
14 other factors, but I think that was the thrust of the
15 matter.
16 Q. Right.
17 A. I think.
18 Q. All right. Then when you saw the Commissioner or spoke
19 to him -- do you remember which it was, saw him or
20 telephone this time?
21 A. I honestly can't remember.
22 Q. -- what was the result of the conversation between the
23 two of you?
24 A. I think our consensus was -- for the reasons I have
25 described this morning, ranging from security and the

182

1 potential embarrassment as we saw it or I saw it --
2 I felt I had a duty to advise the commissioner. At the
3 end of the day, it's his responsibility, but the
4 day-to-day knowledge, if you like, and other factors
5 rested with me. As a consequence of my own
6 deliberations and that with my colleagues, I felt I had
7 no option but to advise the Commissioner that we should
8 inform Her Majesty.
9 Q. Right. What did he say about that?
10 A. He agreed with that.
11 Q. Who was going to do that?
12 A. Well, I asked him whether he wanted to inform
13 Sir Robert Fellowes, who was the private secretary, and
14 for the record that's the way one would approach any
15 information, through the private secretary. Clearly the
16 Commissioner knew Sir Robert well, but I felt -- as
17 I was, as it were, in charge that day, I offered to do
18 it, and in fact he seemed pleased that I offered to do
19 it. So we agreed I would come in very early the next
20 morning as the Court was in Balmoral, and I phoned
21 Sir Robert at I think about 7.30/7.45 in the morning.
22 Q. Right. What did he say? You tell us what you said to
23 him first, perhaps.
24 A. Well, I told him that the Commissioner had directed me
25 to inform him that Her Royal Highness or Princess was

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1 going on holiday with the two Princes, and that, in our
2 conclusion, the matter gave us cause for concern, and
3 that, was he aware. I think we weren't sure or I wasn't
4 sure at that stage whether Sir Robert, as the principal
5 private secretary, was aware.
6 There was a silence as I recall -- and I remember
7 that specifically -- and I was not sure whether he had
8 heard me -- and this I recall very well -- so I repeated
9 it, and I said words to the effect, "It is the
10 Commissioner's opinion that the visit or the holiday
11 shouldn't go ahead in our humble opinion". He said
12 "Her Majesty is aware", or at least that's my
13 recollection, or "We are aware". That's my
14 recollection.
15 Q. Sorry, aware of what? Aware of your opinion or aware --
16 A. He was aware of the circumstances; in other words, he
17 was already aware that the holiday/visit was going to go
18 ahead.
19 Q. I see.
20 A. He gave me no further direction, and as far as I was
21 concerned, that was it, in one sense, and obviously,
22 then, the operational factor was left to my colleagues
23 on the various teams to organise.
24 Q. Once you had spoken to him, what did you do then about
25 what he had said?

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1 A. I informed the Commissioner.
2 Q. Right. I don't know if you know, but Lord Condon has
3 given evidence in the inquest, and just so you know, if
4 you don't already, he has no recollection of any episode
5 like this. He says that he thinks really the protocol
6 was that if any question of getting information to the
7 Queen had arisen and it was a matter of speaking to
8 Sir Robert Fellowes -- and he said no disrespect to
9 you -- but he said it would really have been a job that
10 fell to him and not to you and would really have been
11 done at his level.
12 A. Well, I agree with that, and I was surprised in fact
13 that he asked me to do it because the protocol, as you
14 rightly say, of a matter such as that would have been
15 his. So I was very surprised to be asked to do it.
16 But, trained soldier, I did it. I am quite absolute at
17 that, because although I didn't normally discuss matters
18 such as that with my wife, I told her why I was getting
19 up at half five in the morning, to actually go in and do
20 it and it wasn't a normal thing that I would have to do.
21 So my memory is quite clear on that matter.
22 Q. Lord Fellowes also has no recollection of an episode
23 like this, and says that, furthermore, he wasn't at
24 Balmoral at the time either.
25 A. Well, what can I say? I spoke to him. I thought he was

185

1 at Balmoral. If he was at -- if I had thought he was at
2 Buckingham Palace, I would have gone across and knocked
3 on his door and we could have had a face-to-face on the
4 issue.
5 Q. Would you do that?
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: The Queen doesn't go to Balmoral
7 at that time of year, does she?
8 A. Then I am mistaken, my Lord. That's my recollection of
9 the events, and certainly if I don't remember anything
10 else, I certainly remember this conversation, and the
11 fact that I had it both with Lord Condon, as he is now,
12 and Sir Robert Fellowes. It's not a figment of my
13 imagination, I can assure you.
14 MR HILLIARD: Thank you very much, Mr Davies.
15 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield?
16 Questions from MR MANSFIELD
17 MR MANSFIELD: Good afternoon. My name is
18 Michael Mansfield. I represent Mohamed Al Fayed. I am
19 sorry, just a few questions.
20 May I make it clear that I am not suggesting what
21 you have told this jury and the learned Coroner is
22 a figment of your imagination; do you follow? I will
23 take it in the order and I just want to clarify one or
24 two matters with you.
25 The person who you would normally have gone to once

186

1 you had discovered some of this information in the first
2 place, I think you said normally it went straight
3 through to Assistant Commissioner Veness; is that right?
4 A. Via the commander, who would have been Commander Clarke
5 at that time.
6 Q. Were you aware at that time -- I make it clear I mean
7 July of 1997 -- that that officer, that is Veness, was
8 concerned in the safety deposit investigation; did you
9 know that?
10 A. No, I did not know that. Well, I would have assumed,
11 being the Assistant Commissioner Specialist Operations,
12 that he would have had the knowledge. How much direct
13 input he would have had, I would have had no knowledge.
14 Q. You have explained what you mean by "intelligence", in
15 other words you got information from, you believe it
16 was, Superintendent Trimming, and you had cause for
17 concern about the holiday. So I just want to follow
18 those particular concerns.
19 One concern and the concern you first mentioned
20 today was, "I was aware that my colleagues in organised
21 crime were investigating allegations, I believed,
22 against Mr Fayed at that time". That was your first
23 concern that you mentioned today.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Does it follow that in fact, once you had the first

187

1 intimation of the invitation and the holiday prospect,
2 you were already aware that there was an ongoing
3 investigation at that point into Al Fayed? You may not
4 have known the details, but you knew about it?
5 A. I was vaguely aware.
6 Q. You mention in the same breath the attitude of the press
7 to Princess Diana. I am not going to your recollection
8 of the press and so on, we have had quite a lot about
9 that. You used the words "validating intelligence" and
10 so forth. You, by this time -- that's July 1997 -- had
11 had quite a lot of experience in relation to security,
12 had you not?
13 A. Yes, it goes with the job.
14 Q. Yes. One of the aspects that you were concerned about,
15 another aspect besides the ongoing investigation, was
16 the protocol or the tried and tested system. That's one
17 of the things you were mentioning.
18 Once you had validated with Superintendent Trimming
19 that there was a visit, what was it that concerned you
20 about the organisation of the visit, if you like, the
21 protocols?
22 A. Precisely that, the lack of proper preparation. One of
23 the key factors to any event when the royals travel
24 abroad is the preparation. It is absolutely key looking
25 at contingency plans, the number of officers, whether

188

1 you get co-operation from the French or anywhere else in
2 the world. All those factors, from my memory now,
3 weren't there in place, and given the fact that I think
4 we knew at the time that there was a marine factor to
5 this, that added to my concern. If we go back to that
6 period, there was a perceived threat from a number of
7 quarters against the British Royal Family, perceived;
8 whether it was actual, in other words, never came to
9 fruition.
10 So all of those factors would have been something
11 that we would have discussed and I certainly would have
12 discussed it with my team players who, in real terms,
13 were far more experienced in the actual doing of the job
14 than I was.
15 Q. Who were the team players?
16 A. It would have been Trimming, it might have been my
17 deputy, Roger Kingsmill or his deputy. It would be the
18 teams who were what I call hands-on protection officers;
19 in other words those who travelled extensively. It
20 might have been even Ken Wharfe. I can't remember, to
21 be frank with you.
22 Q. Is it right you have a clear recollection of discussing
23 this with the Commissioner himself?
24 A. Absolutely.
25 Q. At this point when you are, as it were, reporting real

189

1 concerns and the concerns in general terms -- there are
2 three of them, in fact: one, Al Fayed, ongoing
3 investigation; two, the press attitude to
4 Princess Diana; three, the way in which it's been
5 organised. Is that a fair summary?
6 A. That's a reasonable summary.
7 Q. Having spoken to him, is this the kind of meeting with
8 the Commissioner, where you are reporting your concerns,
9 that would be recorded?
10 A. No, I don't think it would. Let me go back a little
11 bit. Normally David Veness would have been the
12 authority on this because he had been a commander in
13 royalty protection. Deputy Assistant Commissioner Fry,
14 with all respect to him, had little or no knowledge of
15 protocols of how to proceed. So the next person, as far
16 as I was concerned, that had to be informed was the
17 Commissioner. Of that I am absolutely adamant.
18 Q. One of the facets I just want to deal with, when you are
19 talking to the Commissioner, must have been, on your
20 account, the ongoing investigation into Al Fayed?
21 A. Yes, it would have been.
22 Q. Right. Now, I want to see if you can help us about how
23 it was that you followed up that aspect, the ongoing
24 investigation, just to find out a little more detail.
25 In fact you went back to the commander of the Organised

190

1 Crime Group. We have heard it referred to as the "OCG".
2 Now where were they situated?
3 A. In Scotland Yard.
4 Q. How far away from your office?
5 A. Well, I was at number 5 Buckingham Gate at that time --
6 Q. So it is round the corner.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. To go and see them is a short walk. Whose idea, can you
9 help us, was it, that you did go and speak to them?
10 A. It was either Fry's idea or the Commissioner.
11 Q. One of those two?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You go and see -- and I want to ask you a little bit
14 about this because when you first made your statements
15 about this, you couldn't remember who it was --
16 A. No, I couldn't.
17 Q. -- so what you appear to have done -- first of all, has
18 anybody asked you to, as it were, do the investigations
19 that you have done since to try and find out who it was?
20 A. Nobody has asked me. I have tried to do it because
21 I know full well you would probably put it to me, "Why
22 can't you remember?"
23 Q. Funnily enough, not in your case.
24 A. Anyway, I anticipated that, and being the detective
25 I think I am, I actually tried to make those inquiries,

191

1 and eventually I think I have tracked down a chap who is
2 now in --
3 Q. Cambodia?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. There are three names I want to put to you, again
6 appreciating the distance of time. The officer in
7 charge of the OCG at that time was a commander called
8 "Mulvihill".
9 A. I know him well.
10 Q. Was it him?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Right. The next one down was a detective chief
13 superintendent and his name was "Dixon".
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So he is a possible candidate?
16 A. He certainly is.
17 Q. The only other name I want to put to you is
18 a Superintendent Rees.
19 A. No.
20 Q. So it is not Mulvihill and it is not Rees. So it's more
21 than likely it was Dixon?
22 A. That's my recollection.
23 Q. Those are the three officers we have already heard about
24 and one of them has given evidence.
25 Before you came here today, did you feed back any

192

1 information to anyone here that in fact you had
2 identified Dixon?
3 A. Yes, I did. I think I may have said so today.
4 Q. You did today, but before you came, did you say --
5 A. No, I don't think so.
6 Q. So you go and see probably Dixon, and you get more
7 information and confirmation about --
8 A. Confirmation -- more confirmation that what I had been
9 informed or -- that there was an actual investigation
10 going on. The obvious question to me 11 years on: there
11 must be a record of who was in charge of that
12 investigation. So where I would next go, if I was
13 allowed to, was to say, "Right, Scotland Yard, who was
14 in charge of that investigation?" So they must have
15 a record somewhere.
16 Q. These are the sort of questions I have been asking
17 already, although the first person I asked it of was the
18 Commissioner himself.
19 Just moving on, so having got the confirmation, you
20 go back to the Commissioner?
21 A. By either telephone or presence, but I certainly recall
22 going to his office.
23 Q. Right. Is there any doubt in your mind that you spoke
24 to him for a second time, having got the confirmation?
25 A. None whatsoever.

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1 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: You can't remember who it was?
2 A. No, no, this is the Commissioner, sorry.
3 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: You can remember who the
4 Commissioner was?
5 A. I can certainly remember who the Commissioner was, yes,
6 sorry. It's the investigating officer in charge of this
7 alleged inquiry that I can't put a name to.
8 MR MANSFIELD: Yes. So you speak to the Commissioner. You
9 then go to the OCG, probably Dixon, back to the
10 Commissioner?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So I am now back to the Commissioner. When you go back
13 to the Commissioner, one of the things you would have
14 discussed, if you had got confirmation, because that's
15 why there is a gap here in time -- in other words, you
16 have gone away -- is confirmation that there is
17 an ongoing inquiry, so he would have known that at that
18 time.
19 A. Absolutely.
20 Q. I am sorry, it may seem incredible, but I am putting
21 these questions for good reason.
22 Now, having discussed it with him, you say now,
23 today, that you were very surprised that you were asked
24 to communicate these concerns to the Queen.
25 A. Yes, I have never done that before.

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1 Q. Right. Now, the way you put it in a statement that you
2 made is a summary that what you were asked effectively
3 to communicate was that "It was the collective wisdom of
4 the Commissioner and myself that the intended holiday
5 should not take place at all".
6 A. That's how I recall it.
7 Q. Right. If you had to make -- and you have never done it
8 before, did you know how to communicate with the Queen?
9 A. Well, I knew how to communicate with
10 Sir Robert Fellowes, and frankly communicating with
11 anybody doesn't give me a problem, but I had never
12 actually had to do it in these circumstances.
13 Q. I appreciate that. So everybody is still clear, you
14 were, at that time, in charge of royalty protection on
15 the ground?
16 A. I was the chief superintendent. The "divisional
17 commander" is the appropriate term.
18 Q. Had you ever had, in another set of circumstances, any
19 other occasion to make contact with Sir Robert Fellowes?
20 A. Oh yes.
21 Q. How would you normally do that?
22 A. I would say "Hello, Sir Robert" --
23 Q. Yes, yes.
24 A. It's a matter ... he is intimidating to some, but not to
25 me.

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1 Q. Absolutely. My mistake. I am sure you would say
2 "Hello", yes. How would you normally do it? Would you
3 go round to him in his office or would you telephone?
4 A. The way we would normally do it would be my commander.
5 Q. Your commander?
6 A. That's the etiquette. That's the way because he was
7 designated a member of the Household.
8 Q. The commander being at that time?
9 A. Clarke.
10 Q. Right?
11 A. Who was on holiday, I think, unless he can't remember
12 anything either. I don't know.
13 Q. All right. So it would normally be through him, but if
14 he was not there and you have made contact in the past,
15 would the form of the contact in the past have been
16 going round to see Sir Robert --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- or a telephone call or --
19 A. One or the other.
20 Q. On this particular occasion, since it was concerning
21 conveying a message to Her Majesty the Queen, can you
22 recall which it was?
23 A. A phone call.
24 Q. A phone call?
25 A. Specifically -- I thought about it. It's a serious

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1 thing to be advising the Queen in her role with regards
2 to the Princes going in and out of the country, which
3 I understood officially she had to approve. That was my
4 understanding. It was a heavy thing to say to the Queen
5 of England, in my humble opinion, based on relatively
6 fast-time information and other factors, but having
7 discussed it with this Commissioner -- and let me say
8 for the record that I am absolutely amazed that the
9 Commissioner can't remember it because it caused me
10 concern.
11 Q. Just at this stage, when we have got to the stage of you
12 having to ring Sir Robert Fellowes, would there be any
13 record of any of this?
14 A. No, it would be done -- only the telephone call, either
15 to where he was -- I would have tracked him down. So if
16 he wasn't, for whatever reason, in Balmoral, he may have
17 been -- wherever he was at that time, I would have
18 tracked him down to do so.
19 Q. Yes, my only concern here is whether, at any of the
20 stages we have gone through today, anybody would have
21 made an attendance note, a record of any kind,
22 a telephone --
23 A. I probably would have done it in my then diary, which
24 I had; something like this, you just do it.
25 Q. All right. Of course, when you spoke -- and I just want

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1 to be clear about it -- to Sir Robert, are you clear
2 that you mentioned to him -- it was a short conversation
3 plainly -- what your concerns or the concerns of the
4 collective wisdom of the Commissioner were, namely the
5 ongoing investigation into Al Fayed? You mentioned
6 that?
7 A. That, frankly, in one sense, would have been my primary
8 end; the embarrassment factor that I felt, rightly or
9 wrongly, could have befallen either the Royal Family or
10 the whole issue.
11 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: That wasn't a security matter at
12 all?
13 A. Not in that sense, no. But then the next one down, as
14 I have graded it -- I am being honest with you -- the
15 first factor that crossed my mind was a potential
16 embarrassment one. The next one, when you think about
17 it in a protection sense, was the protection issues.
18 MR MANSFIELD: The protection issues, right.
19 Now, two things. One is in relation to the Al Fayed
20 investigation. Are you able to help? Is it right that
21 at that stage there had been no publicity about that?
22 A. I think you are probably right. I don't know.
23 Q. All right. I can't take it further with you. Secondly,
24 when you had spoken to the team or your colleagues at
25 the OCG, had they indicated -- and I am not in

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1 a position to put it; I am just asking -- had they said
2 to you that Mohamed Al Fayed himself was under
3 surveillance?
4 A. They didn't go into detail, sir.
5 Q. Right.
6 A. In other words they didn't share with me and I didn't
7 ask.
8 Q. Having, therefore, on the Sir Robert Fellowes
9 conversation, communicated certainly two of the main
10 concerns, one, the embarrassment arising out of the
11 investigation and, two, all the protocol security issues
12 with him, his only response that you remember to both of
13 those is to say "Her Majesty is aware, thank you,
14 Mr Davies"?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you help as to how Sir Robert Fellowes, when you
17 rang, could have known about the Al Fayed investigation
18 or let alone the Queen?
19 A. There is a tripartite factor involved in
20 royalty protection, involving the Home Secretary, the
21 Commissioner and, I believe, at that time,
22 Sir Robert Fellowes. That was the body that looked
23 after the wider, higher level factors involved in
24 protecting the Royal Family. That's my understanding.
25 Q. Yes. I just want to see if I can clarify. So if the

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1 Queen already knew about the Mohamed Al Fayed
2 investigation, it plainly hasn't come from you because
3 you are the first one to communicate it, it plainly
4 hasn't come from the Commissioner because he is telling
5 you to communicate it, so it has to be coming from
6 somewhere else?
7 A. It may have come from Diana's own office. I have no
8 idea. How they communicate or didn't communicate in
9 those days was a matter beyond me.
10 Q. There is no material from Diana's own office
11 suggesting -- because we have heard from her personal
12 secretary, Mr Gibbins, at the time -- that he
13 communicated that he knew about the Al Fayed
14 investigation. So can I just move on?
15 Having got that answer from Sir Robert Fellowes,
16 there is finally a third occasion that you speak to the
17 Commissioner because you have to go back to him and say
18 that they know.
19 A. Absolutely.
20 Q. What was his reaction to that?
21 A. Short and sweet, "Thank you", or words to that effect.
22 There was no greater follow-up, no greater dialogue, as
23 I recall.
24 Q. That's the end of that particular --
25 A. From that aspect.

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1 MR MANSFIELD: Thank you very much.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Keen?
3 MR KEEN: No, sir.
4 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Croxford?
5 MR CROXFORD: No thank you sir.
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Horwell?
7 Questions from MR HORWELL
8 MR HORWELL: My name is Richard Horwell. I appear on behalf
9 of the Commissioner of Metropolitan Police.
10 As a starting point, Mr Davies, it seems fairly
11 clear that you believed the holiday shouldn't go ahead;
12 is that right?
13 A. At that time, yes.
14 Q. Have you, in fact, read Lord Condon's transcript of
15 evidence before coming to court?
16 A. No, I didn't. I have been abroad quite a lot.
17 Q. You see, as has already been summarised, Mr Davies,
18 Lord Condon was of the view that there were a number of
19 features that were rather odd to what has been
20 suggested. First, that Mohamed Al Fayed would have been
21 on his radar at all at this time; secondly, that he
22 would have felt it his business to contact the Palace at
23 all in July; and if I could add this to what Lord Condon
24 had said, the investigation into the safety deposit
25 affair was at a very early stage, and it wasn't as if

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1 Mohamed Al Fayed was not known to the public by this
2 time in 1997. He had already achieved a certain
3 notoriety by that time, had he not?
4 As has already been said -- no disrespect to you --
5 Lord Condon said that if he believed that the
6 Metropolitan Police had to contact the Palace, he would
7 never have delegated that task to you, and you say that
8 he did.
9 Again, this has been summarised.
10 Sir Robert Fellowes has no recollection of your calling
11 him about these events, and we will hear from him soon.
12 In any event, Mr Davies, surely the Palace must have
13 known because of the security arrangements that would
14 have been necessary for the two Princes. They were
15 having 24-hour protection at this time, weren't they?
16 A. They certainly were.
17 Q. So surely the Palace must have known of the arrangements
18 surrounding the activities of the two Princes; do you
19 not think?
20 A. Let me go back. I don't think Superintendent Trimming
21 was aware until a day or half a day before he came to
22 see me. So to answer your question, I don't think his
23 protection team were aware of Diana's arrangements and
24 I think they were worked out fairly quickly. I may be
25 wrong.

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1 Let me assure you that everything I have told the
2 Coroner happened. It is not a figment of my
3 imagination. I remember it. The problem was that the
4 usual intermediaries in the shape of Commander Clarke
5 and Assistant Commissioner Veness were not present.
6 Now, I can't answer for Lord Condon. What I can
7 tell you, because it was such an unusual event and
8 because, as you rightly say, protocol normally would
9 have dictated it would be the commander or -- I remember
10 it.
11 Q. There is something else that's odd about this,
12 Mr Davies. The chronology. You have placed these
13 events, your contacting various people and making
14 certain inquiries, as taking place a day or two before
15 the departure.
16 A. That's my recollection.
17 Q. That is what is clearly set out in your statement. We
18 know that the departure was on 11th July, so you say
19 these events must be the 9th or the 10th.
20 A. Very shortly -- yes, it wasn't much time.
21 Q. Could we have up, please, [INQ0052400 - not shown] to see what
22 others knew about these arrangements, Mr Davies. That
23 is the number on the document. (Pause) I am sorry that
24 we are not able to get that. It is a document dated
25 8th July and it is signed by Colin Trimming, setting out

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1 that the arrangements were in place for the Princes'
2 visit to the St Tropez villa.
3 A. I will accept -- with all respect to you, it's
4 eleven years ago and I do not have a record of it.
5 I just remember what I have told you. Whether it's the
6 7th or the 8th or the 9th, I honestly can't say.
7 Q. The arrangements in place, Mr Davies, the security
8 arrangements for this visit, signed off by Trimming on
9 8th July, and you say this all took place a day or two
10 before.
11 A. That's my recollection. Two or three days.
12 Q. The telephone call. You have told us today that you
13 remember getting up early in order for you to telephone
14 Fellowes at Balmoral.
15 A. Or a location not at Buckingham Palace. Obviously if he
16 wasn't at Balmoral, he was somewhere and I tracked him
17 down.
18 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Balmoral was what you told us.
19 A. That was my recollection. If it's wrong and he was
20 somewhere else, then I -- but I did speak to him.
21 MR HORWELL: You remember getting up early and
22 your statement says as follows, "I telephoned him at
23 Balmoral ..."
24 A. That was my impression.
25 Q. "... early in the morning", and we know that he wasn't

204

1 there.
2 A. Right.
3 Q. Your statement continues as follows:
4 "I explained what I knew of the trip and asked if he
5 and Her Majesty knew that the Princess of Wales and her
6 two boys would be in Mr Fayed's transport, including
7 being in his helicopter at the same time as well as
8 staying in his accommodation. I am sure that
9 I mentioned the fact that Mr Fayed was under
10 investigation. After I had finished speaking, there was
11 a long pause and I asked him if he had heard me. He
12 said 'Her Majesty is aware, thank you, Mr Davies'."
13 Now, even if this call did take place, Mr Davies,
14 that description that you have given of the call within
15 your statement does not indicate what Her Majesty was
16 aware of or not, does it?
17 A. Well, from my point of view, it's informing or asking if
18 they were aware of the visit/holiday, and if they were,
19 I had been directed by the Commissioner to tell them, ie
20 Sir Robert and the Royal Family, of our concerns. I can
21 assure you that I have not sat here and made it up. Why
22 would I?
23 Q. But you see --
24 A. With respect, sir, you are trying to say that this is
25 either I didn't do it or say it. I am telling you and

205

1 the Coroner, I had this conversation. Where Sir Robert
2 was, I have no now --
3 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Somebody's recollection is wrong
4 and that's what we are trying to find out.
5 A. Absolutely.
6 MR HORWELL: Maybe yours, Mr Davies.
7 A. Maybe mine, but the conversation took place is the
8 bottom line.
9 Q. Well, we will see because we will hear from
10 Sir Robert Fellowes in due course.
11 Can I just return to the question that I was asking?
12 There is no indication in your statement, is there, even
13 if this conversation took place, to what Her Majesty was
14 aware, whether it was simply the holiday, for example?
15 A. That was the main factor.
16 Q. The holiday?
17 A. The fact that -- due to the fact that Mr Al Fayed, at
18 that time, was under investigation, and from my point of
19 view, whether anyone in the Royal Family thought that
20 was a good idea, it was a matter entirely for them.
21 Q. But if we look at your statement. Please, time is very
22 short, Mr Davies.
23 "I explained what I knew of the trip and asked if he
24 and Her Majesty knew that the Princess of Wales and her
25 two boys would be in Fayed's transport. I am sure

206

1 I mentioned also the fact that he was under
2 investigation ... 'Her Majesty is aware, thank you,
3 Mr Davies'."
4 A. I remember those words.
5 Q. No indication in that response from Fellowes as to what
6 Her Majesty was aware.
7 A. Well you must ask Lord Fellowes. What I am trying to
8 say --