Hearing transcripts

25 October 2007 - Afternoon session
5 (1.30 pm)
6 (Jury present)
7 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Burnett, it has been drawn to
8 my attention that a representative of a national
9 newspaper has approached and tried to speak to a member
10 of the jury. This was very properly reported to me by
11 the jury.
12 The journalist has been spoken to and maintains that
13 she was unaware that the person she approached was
14 a juror. I accept her explanation, but wish to make it
15 absolutely clear that approaches of this kind must not
16 occur and that journalists should be particularly
17 careful to ensure that anyone to whom they wish to speak
18 at the Royal Courts of Justice is not a member of the
19 jury, otherwise they risk putting themselves in the
20 position where they may face contempt of court
21 proceedings.
22 Members of the jury, thank you very much for
23 ensuring that this was drawn to my attention. It was
24 entirely the correct thing to do and if anything like it
25 happens again, please do likewise.

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1 MR BURNETT: Thank you, sir.
2 Might we return then to Mr Pennequin and his
3 evidence?
4 I see no signal at the moment, which rather alarms
5 me.
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: It was only that I asked for it
7 to be off while I made the point that I was making.
8 MR BURNETT: Mr Pennequin --
9 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: We have no sound.
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Can you hear us?
11 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: We can now.
12 MR BURNETT: Can you hear me as well?
13 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we can.
14 MR SEBASTIEN PENNEQUIN (continued)
15 (Evidence via videolink, interpreted)
16 Questions from MR BURNETT (continued)
17 MR BURNETT: Can I return to the questions I was asking you
18 about what you saw at the scene? First, can I clarify
19 an answer that you gave before lunch?
20 I asked you where you were in the tunnel when
21 the car you were in came to a stop. Could you give us
22 your answer to that again please?
23 A. Before the entrance of the tunnel, in the slope which
24 goes out of the tunnel.
25 Q. Therefore how far, roughly, from the crashed Mercedes?

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1 A. In between 100 and 150 metres.
2 Q. Can I ask you to pause there? In the [draft] transcript
3 at page 42/10, there is recorded 1,150 metres, which may
4 just be a typographical error.
5 Now, you were telling us before we broke what you
6 saw at the scene and I wish to return to that if I may.
7 Who first got out of your car?
8 A. My brother.
9 Q. Before he got out, did you see anyone close to
10 the crashed Mercedes?
11 A. We could not see the car.
12 Q. Did you see anyone moving about in the tunnel on the
13 other side of the road; that is to say the side on which
14 the Mercedes was?
15 A. In my recollection, there was a car which was stopped at
16 the exit of the tunnel.
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. But I do not remember the name of the car, the marque,
19 the model.
20 Q. Was there anyone in that car or near that car?
21 A. I do not remember anymore. When I read my deposition,
22 I noticed that I said that somebody was out of the
23 tunnel, but today I do not remember.
24 Q. Your first deposition was made a few hours after the
25 crash, and so is it right that what you said then is

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1 likely to be your best recollection?
2 A. Yes, indeed.
3 Q. Now, this is what you said.
4 Madame Interpreter, it is at the top of the second
5 page of the statement taken on 31st August [INQ0000495 - read out in court].
6 May I read it to you and you will pick it up in the
7 transcript?
8 "I saw someone running back from where the smoke was
9 coming from. He was returning to his car where someone
10 holding a phone was waiting for him."
11 Do you see that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So that is how you remembered it just a few hours after
14 the crash?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now you have told us that your brother got out of the
17 car; did you also get out of the car?
18 A. Yes, after him.
19 Q. Was it following that that you were able to see the
20 Mercedes properly?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Were there, at that time, four or five people around the
23 Mercedes?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were you able to see who or what they were?

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1 A. They were photographers and they were taking pictures.
2 Q. Was that with flash cameras?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you continue to approach the Mercedes?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was the rear right-hand door of that car open?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now I think you saw both a lady and a gentleman in the
9 back of the Mercedes. Is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Was either of them wearing a seat-belt?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you also see a gentleman who was a passenger in
14 the front of the Mercedes?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Was he wearing a seat-belt?
17 A. I do not remember.
18 Q. Might I remind you of what is in your statement? It is
19 at the bottom of the second page [INQ0000495 - read out in court], the one
20 we were looking at, in the middle of the last paragraph,
21 Madame Interpreter:
22 "I would add that he was seated in the front on the
23 passenger seat, without a seat-belt."
24 Do you see that, Mr Pennequin?
25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. So again that is likely to be your best recollection?
2 A. If it was written in my deposition, it is because it is
3 what I just saw.
4 Q. Thank you. Did you hear anything in the tunnel at this
5 time?
6 A. A horn. A horn sound.
7 Q. Was that coming from the Mercedes?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What was your brother trying to do at this point?
10 A. He did some kind of assessment. He looked in what
11 condition were the people -- the passengers of the car.
12 Q. And tried -- forgive me. Please continue.
13 A. And then, at the same time -- everything went quite
14 quickly and the doctor arrived at the same time.
15 Q. Did your brother try to help?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I think you told us that he is a volunteer fireman or
18 was at that stage.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did a time come when it was clear that the occupants of
21 the car spoke English and not French?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In your statement you describe a man who came to speak
24 some English, who was a Middle Eastern type, well
25 dressed, in a suit and tie. Did he speak to the lady in

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1 the car?
2 A. The people there were asking if somebody could speak
3 English because we did not understand what was said.
4 Then this guy introduced himself as an English speaker.
5 Q. So he was able to help?
6 A. He translated.
7 Q. Now I wonder if you could look at a photograph for me?
8 It is page 80 [not for publication] of the paparazzi bundle.
9 Madame Interpreter, that is the small bundle of
10 photographs that you have, page 80. I hope the members
11 of the jury have that as well.
12 Now, looking at this photograph, Mr Pennequin, you
13 can see that we have attached labels to the people
14 we see.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I just want to check that we have it correct. Is that
17 you on the left of the photograph?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And your brother to your right, with his back to us?
20 A. It is him.
21 Q. Is the Middle-Eastern-looking gentleman who helped
22 translate into English the man next to your brother,
23 identified as Gooroovadoo?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now returning to your account of what occurred, is it

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1 right that the photographers were still taking pictures
2 at this time, the time you are describing?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Were you conscious of a doctor arriving?
5 A. Yes, because we saw his car. He parked his car on the
6 other way of the tunnel and it was written on the car
7 "SOS Medecins", which is the emergency service.
8 Q. Did he park his car on the same side as your car was
9 parked?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did the doctor then get out and begin to render
12 assistance?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you look at page 81 [not for publication] in the same bundle please? Is
15 that the doctor there, with his back to us?
16 A. I think so.
17 Q. At this stage, were the photographers still present?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And were they still taking photographs?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you hear one of the photographers say something at
22 this stage?
23 A. I remember that somebody said "She is alive".
24 Q. Before somebody said that, had you tried to stop the
25 photographers taking pictures?

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1 A. The sequence of events is quite blurred right now, but
2 if I remember, we first tried to give assistance, then
3 we tried to push the photographers away in order to
4 establish a safety area around the car.
5 Q. Was it about this time that one of the photographers
6 said to you that Princess Diana was alive?
7 A. I do not remember.
8 Q. Might we again look at your statement? I am now looking
9 at page 3 [INQ0000496 - read out in court], the paragraph beginning,
10 "The photographers were still present ..." Do you have
11 that?
12 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
13 Q. "The photographers were still present and continued
14 taking photographs. It was then that I spoke to them,
15 telling them to stop. One of them then said to me:
16 'The people must know that Princess Diana is alive'."
17 Does that accord with your memory or certainly that
18 is your memory in 1997?
19 A. I totally recall this specific moment.
20 Q. Did you and Mr Masseron continue to try to get the
21 photographers away?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And then policemen arrived, is that right?
24 A. Two policemen arrived.
25 Q. What happened then?

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1 A. They continued what we were trying to do, which was to
2 have the journalists away.
3 Q. In due course, were they and you successful?
4 A. It was hard for them to do so, but finally, yes.
5 Q. Then you stayed and your brother in particular continued
6 to help, given his profession?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, when you were interviewed on a second occasion by
9 the police, you were shown some photographs, I think, of
10 various photographers. Do you remember that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You were first shown a photograph with five individuals
13 on it, but you did not recognise anyone. That is right,
14 isn't it?
15 A. It was not a photograph. It was real people behind
16 glass.
17 Q. I am sorry. I misunderstood. But you did not recognise
18 any of those five?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And then you were --
21 A. No, I did not, sorry.
22 Q. Then you were shown a photograph of seven individuals
23 [INQ0002417] which we will bring up on the screen now.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now do you remember being shown this photograph?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And at the time you identified or recognised the
3 individual marked "number 2" as a man who was crouched
4 close to the open rear door of vehicle.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You said that he had a camera in his hand, but he was
7 not taking any pictures. Do you remember that?
8 A. I do not remember now.
9 Q. But that is what you said at the time. So, again, that
10 is likely to be correct, isn't it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. That is Mr Rat, as I think everyone here now knows.
13 You also recognised number 3 as a man who arrived,
14 as you saw it, on foot and limping, as you were going
15 back to your car to leave. Is that right? Do you
16 remember that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. That is, as again we know here, Mr Veres.
19 Can I finally ask you some more questions about the
20 vehicle that you saw parked on the other side of the
21 road which you talked to us about a little earlier? You
22 told it was at the tunnel exit.
23 Now could you look at page 4 of your first statement
24 [INQ0000497 - read out in court] and might I take you to the last paragraph,
25 where you give your best description of this car. You

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1 said this:
2 "I noticed one car parked in front of the Mercedes
3 but quite a way from it, at the tunnel exit. I do not
4 really remember that car. It was a five-door green
5 saloon, a large car. It was dark and I could not see
6 that well."
7 So, again, that is your best description of that
8 car, but even within hours of the crash, you were not
9 very sure about it. Is that right?
10 A. No, because when we went out of the car, we were more
11 attracted by the things around the crashed Mercedes,
12 rather than what was happening around the tunnel.
13 Q. Were you still at the scene when the ambulance arrived
14 or had you gone by then?
15 A. We left when the fire brigade arrived.
16 MR BURNETT: Thank you very much, Mr Pennequin. I have no
17 further questions but there may be some more.
18 MR MANSFIELD: No questions.
19 Questions from MR KEEN
20 MR KEEN: Good afternoon, Mr Pennequin. My name is
21 Richard Keen and I am counsel for the parents of the
22 late Henri Paul. I would just like to ask you a very
23 brief set of questions. Do you have in front of you
24 your deposition from 31st August 1997 that my learned
25 friend was asking you about a moment ago?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Could you please turn to the third page [INQ0000496 - read out in court]?
3 Do you recall mentioning, and indeed identifying from
4 a photograph, the gentleman of Middle Eastern appearance
5 who appeared to speak in English to those in the crashed
6 car?
7 Could you just interpret the question, please, into
8 French?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. If you look at the second paragraph on this page, do you
11 see you begin by saying, "La personne qui parlait
12 anglais etait un homme"?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you please read the whole of that paragraph?
15 Could the interpreter please translate that answer into
16 English?
17 A. "The person who was speaking English was a man, an
18 Arabian type. He was 30 years old roughly. He was very
19 well dressed with a suit and he was wearing a tie. With
20 my brother, he took care of the front passenger.
21 Afterwards, I did not pay attention to what he was
22 doing, except for the fact that later I heard him say
23 that it was because of the journalists that the accident
24 had occurred. I do not remember his exact words."
25 MR KEEN: Thank you. No further questions, sir.

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1 Questions from MR CROXFORD
2 MR CROXFORD: Monsieur, my name is Ian Croxford. I am going
3 to ask you some questions on behalf of the Ritz Hotel.
4 This is right, is it? As you were travelling in
5 your brother's car into that tunnel that evening, quite
6 slowly, as you got towards the tunnel, you noticed some
7 blue-ish flashing lights. Is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Later on, after you got out of the car and went over to
10 the crashed Mercedes, you realised, did you, that those
11 blue-ish flashing lights were the flash lights of
12 photographers taking photographs?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. So some photographers had obviously arrived at the scene
15 before you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now your brother drove his car into the underpass, and
18 I think he must have realised that there had been
19 a crash before you did. Is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Because he simply stopped as soon as he could, got out
22 of the car and rushed over to try to help. Is that
23 right?
24 A. We could not see the car, but we felt that something
25 serious had happened.

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1 Q. So he got out and went to help?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. He and the Arabian-looking gentleman who spoke English
4 did whatever they could to try to help the occupants of
5 that car. That is what happened, isn't it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now just before he stopped and got out, there was still
8 what appeared to be some smoke coming from the area of
9 the crashed Mercedes, wasn't there?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. At that stage, just before the car was stopped was when
12 you first saw someone, as you agreed with Mr Burnett
13 a little while ago, running back from where the smoke
14 was coming from; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. He was the man who was returning to his car where
17 someone was holding a phone whilst waiting for him. Is
18 that right?
19 A. From my position, yes.
20 Q. That car was the large car that you saw parked some
21 distance away from the Mercedes, towards the exit from
22 the tunnel; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Of course your attention was mostly focused on the
25 Mercedes, wasn't it?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. But you have no doubt that you saw this large car parked
3 up near the exit, have you?
4 A. There was a car which was parked at the exit of the
5 tunnel.
6 Q. And it was a large car, and your best assessment was
7 that it was green or at least a dark colour; is that
8 right, sir?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. There was a man standing beside the car, was there,
11 holding this phone, waiting for the other man to come
12 and reach him?
13 A. I assume it was like that.
14 Q. Thank you. Eventually, presumably, that man who had run
15 away from the scene reached the car and had some dealing
16 with the man holding the phone?
17 A. I do not know.
18 Q. Because you were looking at the Mercedes?
19 A. Yes, we were going towards the Mercedes.
20 Q. So you don't know what happened to the man who was
21 standing by the dark car?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Now you, of course, went to help your brother and one or
24 two others try to assist the passengers in the car,
25 didn't you?

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1 A. Yes, my brother.
2 Q. And is this right, that you tried, even to the extent of
3 trying to push them, to hold the photographers back from
4 the car?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When you were over by the car, did another man come
7 towards you holding a mobile phone?
8 A. I don't remember now, but it is written in my
9 deposition, that is right.
10 Q. Would this be right -- if you tell me that it is what is
11 in your deposition or if you can remember -- do you
12 remember helping a man who was on a mobile phone talking
13 to the fire brigade?
14 A. I do not remember. I read my deposition, but I do not
15 remember now.
16 Q. Well, can we just see if -- your deposition at the time
17 probably would have been your best recollection, would
18 it not, sir?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is this correct, that this other man with the mobile
21 phone was talking to the fire brigade, but first of all
22 he did not know how many people had been injured. Is
23 that right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you told him that, as you saw it, two people were

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1 dead and two people were injured, semi-conscious?
2 A. Dead or seeming to be dead.
3 Q. I am so sorry, can you repeat?
4 A. They were dead or they were looking like being dead.
5 Q. Did he pass that information on to the fire brigade?
6 Did you hear him?
7 A. I do not remember.
8 Q. Did you also tell him to tell the fire brigade that they
9 would need cutting equipment?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Lastly, please, you were able to identify from
12 photographs two people. Do you remember that?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Two of the photographers at the scene.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I just want to understand this: the second of those that
17 you have identified, who we understand was Mr Veres,
18 the limping man, he arrived after you had been on the
19 scene for some little time, didn't he?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR CROXFORD: I just want to deal with a matter on the
22 transcript, sir, if I may. Page 69, lines 1 and 2, for
23 the purposes of when we come to check.
24 Mr Pennequin, I want to go back to the car that was
25 parked up by the exit to the tunnel, the large dark car.

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1 I said to you that there was a man standing beside
2 the car, holding a phone, waiting for the other man to
3 come and reach him. Do you remember my asking you that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. That is the position as you saw it, was it not?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR CROXFORD: Thank you very much.
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Any further questions?
9 MR BURNETT: No, thank you, sir.
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you very much,
11 Mr Pennequin. That will be all. We are very grateful
12 to you for coming.
13 A. Thank you.
14 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Dalby next please.
15 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: Mr Dalby is here, sir.
16 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you very much.
17 MR BURNETT: I wonder if Mr Dalby could take the oath
18 please.
19 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: I am sorry, Mr Burnett, we cannot
20 hear you.
21 MR BURNETT: It always seems to be the first words I speak.
22 Can you hear me now?
23 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: Yes, we can hear you now.
24 MR BURNETT: Can Mr Dalby be sworn, please?
25

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1 MR DAMIEN DALBY (affirmed)
2 (Evidence via videolink, interpreted)
3 Questions from MR BURNETT
4 MR BURNETT: Mr Dalby, my name is Ian Burnett and I shall
5 ask you questions first on behalf of the coroner.
6 Would you give us your full name, please?
7 A. Dalby, Damien. My name is Dalby, Damien.
8 Q. You are a French national living in France, I believe.
9 Is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Mr Dalby, before I ask you about the events on the night
12 of 30th and 31st August 1997, can I please ask some
13 preliminary questions? Can you hear?
14 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: Mr Burnett, the sound is not very
15 good.
16 MR BURNETT: I will try again.
17 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: That is better.
18 MR BURNETT: I can speak up, but only to a limit, I suspect,
19 without it being difficult for people here.
20 Mr Dalby, did you make a statement to the police on
21 31st August 1997, very shortly after the events?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you have a copy of that statement with you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you make another statement to the police on

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1 5th September 1997?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And similarly, do you have it with you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And last, did you make a statement before Judge Stephan
6 on 4th May 1998?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that one you also have with you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Have you read those statements through before coming
11 today?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You have not. All right.
14 Have you made any other statements to anybody in
15 connection with these events?
16 A. No.
17 Q. May I ask you some questions we ask of all witnesses?
18 Have you been paid any money by anybody in
19 connection with the events of 30th and 31st August?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Are you expecting to be paid money by anybody in
22 connection with those events?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr Dalby, I hope I can take some of
25 this very quickly because we have heard from your

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1 brother, Mr Pennequin, so we have a very good idea of
2 your journey.
3 We have already heard that you were in the car with
4 your brother, with Ms Lemaigre and with Mr Masseron, and
5 that you were driving towards the Alma Tunnel.
6 A. Yes, indeed.
7 Q. At the time, were you a volunteer fireman?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you tell us what you noticed as you approached the
10 Alma Underpass?
11 A. The crashed car. Before entering the tunnel, we thought
12 that we could see the lights of the firemen and the
13 police, but then we noticed it was flashes.
14 Q. As you approached the tunnel, did you have to slow down?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And did you in fact stop in your car?
17 A. I was on the left and when I saw that there was nobody,
18 I left my car like that and I ran out of my car.
19 Q. When you got out of your car and ran from it, what did
20 you first see?
21 A. The crashed car and people taking pictures.
22 Q. Were those people taking pictures with flash cameras?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you come across another volunteer fireman at
25 the scene?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. We don't know his name. Do you know his name, M Dalby?
3 A. Not at all.
4 Q. Did you also notice an SOS Medecins car at the scene?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Was that there before you arrived or did it arrive after
7 you?
8 A. Largely before us.
9 Q. When you got to the Mercedes -- you have told us about
10 the photographers -- what else did you notice about the
11 Mercedes?
12 A. That is all.
13 Q. Was there anything coming from the Mercedes?
14 A. Smoke was emanating from the Mercedes. I wanted to stop
15 the battery, but I could not.
16 Q. So you tried to disconnect the battery but you were
17 unsuccessful?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I think you say that the rear right door was open. Is
20 that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Were photographers taking photographs around that door?
23 A. There was a photographer, but he did not prevent me to
24 do my assistance job. He went back.
25 Q. So could you tell us about that photographer then? You

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1 say he did not prevent you from assisting.
2 A. Not at all.
3 Q. We will come to that in a moment. When you first saw
4 that the back door was open, could you see people inside
5 the Mercedes?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is it right that the lady was trying to speak?
8 A. She was saying, "Oh my God, oh my God".
9 Q. Am I right in thinking that you did not speak English at
10 the time?
11 A. That is true, even today.
12 Q. But there was somebody there who spoke some English, is
13 that right?
14 A. There was a tourist which was around there and I asked
15 him to translate to the bodyguard not to move because
16 the emergency services were arriving.
17 Q. Can you remember what this man looked like?
18 A. I met with him later at the police station.
19 Q. Is he the man wearing a suit and tie who was
20 dark-skinned, possibly North African?
21 A. Yes. That is true.
22 Q. Can you remember anything else he said to you? Perhaps
23 you could look at page 2 [INQ0000436 - read out in court] of your statement.
24 Could you look five lines down at the sentence
25 beginning "The man who translated what I said ..."?

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1 If I read on:
2 "The man who translated what I said ..." --
3 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: Mr Burnett, which statement?
4 MR BURNETT: Forgive me. It is the first statement. For
5 our purposes, it is [INQ0000436 - read out in court].
6 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: Thank you.
7 MR BURNETT: It is page 2 of that first statement.
8 If I read it in English, can you confirm the French,
9 Madame Interpreter?
10 "The man who translated what I said told me that he
11 was following the vehicle and that it had been
12 travelling at high speed. He literally said: 'They were
13 asked to drive quickly'. This man was wearing a suit
14 and tie, he was dark-skinned, possibly North African and
15 was aged roughly 35 to 40."
16 Is that correct?
17 A. Yes. I recognised him during the confrontation.
18 Q. I appreciate that. This statement was made within
19 hours of the crash and so it is likely to be your best
20 recollection of events, isn't it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now you have told us about a number of people in the
23 vicinity and two people in the car who appeared to you
24 to be alive.
25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Do you remember one journalist, after taking his
2 photograph, shouting "She is alive" and then taking the
3 other photographers to task, shouting at them and
4 pushing them away? Do you remember that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. It appeared to you that he wanted to stop the others
7 taking photographs?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now on your second visit to the police station, you were
10 shown a photograph with seven men on it [INQ0002417].
11 We will try to pull it up on the screen in front of you.
12 You identified the man with number 2 on him as the --
13 A. Yes, his name is Rat.
14 Q. M Rat, and he was the man trying to stop the other
15 photographers taking photographs after he shouted "She
16 is alive". That is your recollection, is it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When you saw the police on the second occasion, you were
19 able to tell them his name because you had seen him on
20 television; that is right, isn't it?
21 A. The very evening, at the evening news.
22 Q. Now, by this stage, was the SOS Medecins doctor tending
23 to the lady in the back of the car?
24 A. When I arrived?
25 Q. No, no, at the time, shortly after the incident where

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1 Mr Rat shouted at the other journalists.
2 A. I do not remember.
3 Q. But you do remember, do you, the doctor giving
4 assistance at the same time that you were trying to
5 help; is that right?
6 A. When I arrived I saw nobody and I shouted "Where is
7 the doctor?" because I could see his car but I could not
8 see anybody and his car was much beyond mine.
9 Q. Could you look at page 81 [not for publication] in the bundle of photographs
10 please?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Are you able to confirm that that is the doctor from
13 the SOS Medecins car?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were you still at the scene when the police arrived?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What did they first try to do?
18 A. They first blocked the road, then they tried to remove
19 the photographers, then they asked me who I was and
20 I told them that I was a fireman, so they let me give
21 assistance. But it was hard for them to prevent all
22 these photographers to be around the car.
23 Q. So they had a tough time in getting the photographers
24 away, did they?
25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Did you hear one of the photographers say something to
2 the policeman?
3 A. Something like, "We are earning our money out of that,
4 please leave us to do our job".
5 Q. I see. Then, in due course, the fire brigade arrived as
6 well, is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was it at about that time that you left the scene, once
9 the fire brigade had arrived?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR BURNETT: Thank you. Those are my questions.
12 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you.
13 Mr Keen?
14 Questions from MR KEEN
15 MR KEEN: Mr Dalby, my name is Richard Keen and I am
16 the counsel for the parents of the late Henri Paul, who
17 was the driver of the Mercedes that crashed in the
18 tunnel. Although these events took place ten years ago,
19 I have been asked simply to thank you for the assistance
20 that you attempted to give to the victims of the crash.
21 Thank you.
22 A. Thank you.
23 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Croxford?
24 Questions from MR CROXFORD
25 MR CROXFORD: Mr Dalby, my name is Croxford. I am counsel

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1 for the Ritz Hotel in Paris. That evening you were
2 driving from outside Paris and towards the centre of
3 Paris; is that right?
4 A. I left Versailles to reach St Germain des Pres.
5 Q. In the kilometre or two or three before the Alma Tunnel,
6 the traffic had been moving freely, had it? It was
7 "fluide"?
8 A. In France, as soon as there is a crash, people stop to
9 see and look, so the cars were slowing down.
10 Q. But if you cast your mind back to not when you are at
11 the tunnel, but 2 or 3 kilometres before then, things
12 were moving freely, were not they?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. As you approached the tunnel, however, traffic began to
15 back up and slow you down?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. As you got closer to the tunnel and saw some flashes
18 that turned out to be photographers' flashes, there was
19 already a build-up of traffic ahead of you?
20 A. Yes, there were many cars much ahead of us.
21 Q. Obviously we cannot know how long it was, but it is
22 clear that the actual crash of the Mercedes had taken
23 place some time before you reached the Alma Tunnel?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR CROXFORD: Thank you very much, sir. That is all

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1 I wanted to ask.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you very much, Mr Dalby.
3 That will be all that we require of you. We are
4 extremely grateful to you for coming and giving your
5 evidence. Thank you.
6 Where does that leave us now?
7 MR BURNETT: Sir, the next witness on the list is Mr Firman.
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I call Mr Firman then.
9 MR BURNETT: Page 359 in your bundle, sir.
10 MR DANIEL FIRMAN (affirmed)
11 (Evidence via videolink, interpreted)
12 Questions from MR BURNETT
13 MR BURNETT: Now, Mr Firman, my name is Ian Burnett and
14 I shall ask you questions first on behalf of the
15 Coroner, the judge.
16 Could you give us your full name, please?
17 A. Daniel Firman.
18 Q. You are a French national resident in France?
19 A. Yes, indeed.
20 Q. Before I ask you some questions about the events of the
21 night of 30th and 31st August 1997, can I ask you some
22 preliminary questions?
23 Did you make a statement to the French police on
24 4th September 1997?
25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Do you have a copy of that statement with you?
2 A. Yes, I have it in front of me.
3 Q. Did you also make a statement in front of Judge Devidal
4 on 25th November 1997?
5 A. I think you are right. I would have to check, but
6 I think you are right.
7 Q. Do you have a copy of that one with you also?
8 A. No, I just have the copy of 4th September.
9 Q. Don't worry. We will see if we can manage without it.
10 Have you made any statements to anyone else
11 concerning these events?
12 A. No, never.
13 Q. Can you confirm that no one has paid you any money in
14 connection with these events in the past?
15 A. Never. I thought I was being very discreet with respect
16 to what I stated.
17 Q. I am glad. So you can confirm that you are not
18 expecting anyone to pay you anything in the future?
19 A. Not at all.
20 Q. Now, can I take you then to the events of the night in
21 question? Were you a passenger in a white Clio being
22 driven by a friend of yours, M Males?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. It was about midnight and there were just two of you in
25 the car; is that right?

84

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You were driving along the expressway by the Seine
3 towards the Alma Tunnel, I think. Is that right?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. What did you notice as you were approaching the
6 Alma Tunnel?
7 A. When we arrived close to the tunnel, I precisely
8 remember to have seen white light coming out of the
9 tunnel while the cars in front of us were slowing down
10 at the same time.
11 Q. Did you see anything other than white light?
12 Pause there to let it be interpreted.
13 A. Afterwards I noticed something which seemed abnormal.
14 I thought it was a film being made, which is quite
15 common in Paris, but then I realised it was something
16 different because there was a white car being parked at
17 the exit of the tunnel with a man who was having
18 a phone.
19 Q. Can I see if we can explore that a little bit? Was the
20 white car in the carriageway on the other side of the
21 tunnel from you?
22 A. The opposite way; the carriageway where the crash had
23 taken place.
24 Q. Where was this white car stopped? Was it on the ramp
25 going down into the tunnel, at the top of the ramp or in

85

1 the tunnel?
2 A. At the top of the ramp, just at the exit of the tunnel.
3 Q. You have mentioned that it was a white car. Did you
4 notice its size?
5 A. Not really, but it seemed rather to be a small car.
6 Q. Were its lights on or off?
7 A. I cannot remember. I remember the car being stopped,
8 but I do not remember for the lights.
9 Q. If we look at your first statement, the one you have in
10 front of you, Mr Firman, at the second page, please,
11 page 2 [INQ0000463 - read out in court] in the second paragraph, do you see
12 that you say "Its headlights were switched off"?
13 A. Yes, indeed.
14 Q. Now obviously this statement was made just five days
15 after the events and is likely to be your best
16 recollection, is it not?
17 A. I think I made this deposition as seriously as possible,
18 and if I stated that, it means that I recollected that
19 the lights were off.
20 Q. Thank you. Now did you notice any people by that car?
21 A. I remember two people, as I have stated, and I remember
22 one was having a telephone call.
23 Q. Are you able to tell us from your memory or from your
24 statement in front of you what either of them looked
25 like?

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1 A. No. I fully remember this man having a phone call.
2 That is part of the thing which really remained in my
3 memory.
4 Q. At the time you noted that one of the men was wearing
5 a white shirt, but I think that is about all.
6 A. As of today, I do not remember if he was wearing a white
7 shirt.
8 Q. But on 4th September 1997, that is what you thought?
9 A. Yes, indeed.
10 Q. Did you notice any other vehicle close to that small
11 white car?
12 A. I remember a motorbike.
13 Q. Where was it, as compared with the car?
14 A. The motorbike was a little bit more backwards, more in
15 the tunnel.
16 Q. Was there anyone on it?
17 A. No. The motorbike was stopped.
18 Q. The car you were in continued into the underpass and you
19 came across some debris in your carriageway.
20 A. Yes, indeed.
21 Q. So the driver of your car changed lanes to avoid
22 the debris, is that right?
23 A. Yes, indeed.
24 Q. Did you hear anything at this point?
25 A. The thing which was really impressive was the horn, the

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1 noise of the horn of the car, and this noise did not
2 stop.
3 Q. At this stage, was the car you were in still moving
4 forward?
5 A. Yes, indeed.
6 Q. Did a time come when you could see the crashed vehicle
7 on the other side of the tunnel?
8 A. I noticed it when we were quite close to it because,
9 with the number of pillars, it was acting as a screen so
10 we could not see it.
11 Q. When you first saw it, did you notice any people on foot
12 around it?
13 A. I mean it is difficult for me to tell you, difficult to
14 remember even, but maybe it was at the same time that
15 I saw the car, but I saw two people who were going back
16 towards the exit of the tunnel, going towards the car
17 I saw stopped and one was walking quicker than
18 the other.
19 Q. Are you able to tell us, either from your memory or from
20 looking at your statement, what either or both of those
21 men looked like?
22 A. I do not really remember now, but from my deposition
23 I remember one of these persons more than the other.
24 The one with a camera in his hand, he was really simply
25 dressed, jeans and a T-shirt.

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1 Q. As far as the other one was concerned, you give
2 a description of him in your statement as follows:
3 "I did not see the other one as clearly, but I think
4 he was a short fat man with greying hair and dressed in
5 a safari-type jacket. He also had a camera."
6 You see that, do you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I am going to show you a photograph, if we are able to
9 bring it up [INQ-JB4-0000004]. Now I am only asking
10 about the jacket. I do not expect you, ten years after
11 the event, to be able to recognise somebody. Could you
12 interpret that please?
13 A. From my statement, I can recognise what I wanted to mean
14 by this jacket.
15 Q. So this at least is the right sort of jacket, is it?
16 A. No, with no sleeves.
17 Q. I am sorry, I missed that.
18 A. A jacket with no sleeves.
19 Q. So these two men were walking in the direction of the
20 parked car at the exit of the tunnel. If I can then
21 take you back to the scene of the crash itself.
22 Would you interpret that, please, Madame?
23 Did your car come up behind an SOS Medecins car?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. At the same time, did you notice someone trying to open

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1 the door of the Mercedes, the crashed Mercedes?
2 A. Yes, indeed. I totally remember.
3 Q. As that was happening, did the driver of the
4 SOS Medecins car get out and go towards the Mercedes?
5 A. I remember this guy going out of his car, but I do not
6 really remember because I focused my attention on the
7 other guy who tried to open the right rear door.
8 Q. Did you see the passenger in the SOS Medecins car put
9 the blue flashing light on the roof?
10 A. No, I do not recollect anything like that.
11 Q. I wonder if you could look at the bottom of page 2
12 [INQ0000463 - read out in court] of your statement please. Do you see you
13 say, "The passenger in that car placed a blue flashing
14 light on its roof. I then realised that it was
15 a doctor's car"?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. After that, I understand that the driver of your car
18 went around the doctor's car and you drove away from
19 the tunnel; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Whilst you were close to the scene, I think you did not
22 notice any flash photography going on; is that right?
23 A. I do not have any recollection of that.
24 Q. Did the car you were in stop for any length of time or
25 is everything you saw essentially from a very

90

1 slow-moving car as you were going through the tunnel?
2 A. There were two periods of time, the first one when we
3 were entering the tunnel, we did not stop driving; and
4 the second period, when we were stopped actually behind
5 the SOS Medecins car, because we were blocked, and it is
6 where I had time to see people trying to open the rear
7 right door.
8 MR BURNETT: Thank you. Those are my questions. If you
9 stay there, there will probably be some more questions.
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I think we had better have our
11 break now for LiveNote. So we will break as usual for
12 quarter of an hour.
13 (2.50 pm)
14 (A short break)
15 (3.07 pm)
16 (Jury present)
17 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes, Mr Keen?
18 MR KEEN: No questions, sir.
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Croxford?
20 MR CROXFORD: It is me again, sir.
21 Questions from MR CROXFORD
22 MR CROXFORD: Mr Firman, my name is Croxford. I am acting
23 for the Ritz Hotel Paris and I would like just to ask
24 you a few questions please.
25 You were travelling in your friend's Renault Clio

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1 and you drove through the Alma Tunnel going in the
2 direction towards Central Paris; correct?
3 A. Yes, indeed, that is true.
4 Q. As you were going into the tunnel, you saw, on the other
5 side of the road, going the other direction, stopped,
6 a small white car; is that right?
7 A. Yes, indeed.
8 Q. That small white car, you did not recognise it as
9 a Renault Clio, I assume?
10 A. I cannot remember the model at all. I just remember
11 the shape and the colour.
12 Q. Are you familiar with the Citroen AX motor car?
13 A. Yes, of course.
14 Q. That car you saw on the other side would have been
15 a similar size and shape to a Citroen AX, wouldn't it?
16 A. That is possible, but I would not be able to state it.
17 Q. But it is possible? That is all I ask.
18 A. That is possible.
19 Q. You saw, I think, a man standing by that small white car
20 seemingly talking on the telephone; correct?
21 A. Yes, indeed. It was a cellular phone.
22 Q. And as you went further on into the tunnel, you saw two
23 men walking out of the tunnel in the direction of that
24 small white car; is that right?
25 A. Yes, that is true.

92

1 Q. Each of these men had a camera in his hand, did he not,
2 and they were professional cameras?
3 A. Yes, absolutely.
4 Q. You saw one of the men rather better than you saw
5 the other; that is right, isn't it?
6 A. From my deposition, from my statement, I recall now that
7 I probably saw both men all together, but from my
8 recollection, it seems that I saw the first man first
9 and he marked me more. He had a camera and he had
10 a quicker pace.
11 Q. Isn't this right, though, that back in 1997 your
12 position was that you did not see the second man very
13 well?
14 A. In my statement I managed to describe him, but now,
15 today, I have no recollection of this second guy.
16 Q. Do you have your second deposition there, the one you
17 made on 25th November to examining magistrate Devidal?
18 A. No, I do not have it.
19 Q. Well, does this sound familiar -- it must be very
20 difficult to remember what happened ten years ago and
21 I am not criticising you, sir.
22 Could that be translated please?
23 Was your recollection this -- is your recollection
24 this -- that one of these two men was young, 35 or
25 40 years old and dressed in a T-shirt with cotton

93

1 trousers or jeans; correct?
2 A. I remember that.
3 Q. The second man, you did not see the second man very
4 well, but your friend who did see him told you that the
5 man was short and fat and was wearing a reporter's
6 jacket with lots of pockets?
7 A. What I remember today mostly is this jacket, this
8 reporter's jacket, because this reporter's jacket
9 combined with the camera, the professional camera he had
10 in his hand, let me remember of this professional
11 expertise of all of that.
12 Q. The jacket was a sort of safari jacket, was it not?
13 A. When I say "safari jacket", it means that it is
14 a reporter's jacket without any sleeves and with a lot
15 of pockets.
16 Q. Without any sleeves -- of course, the man you saw might
17 have had his sleeves just pushed up.
18 A. I do not know -- I do not think so. It does not seem
19 that this jacket has been modified.
20 MR CROXFORD: Thank you very much, sir.
21 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Horwell? Mr Burnett?
22 MR BURNETT: No further questions, sir.
23 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Firman, thank you very much.
24 That is all that we require of you and we are very
25 grateful to you for coming to give evidence. Thank you

94

1 very much.
2 Mr Burnett, that concludes the evidence from
3 the French witnesses for today, is that right?
4 MR BURNETT: That is right. The next witness we hope is at
5 4 o'clock coming from the United States.
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Before we lose contact with
7 France, can we be clear about the programme for Monday?
8 MR BURNETT: Yes, sir, we can be clear about it, if I can
9 find my bit of paper. We have Mr and Mrs Dauzonne
10 coming on Monday morning at 9.30. As we understand it.
11 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: I am sorry, Mr Burnett, we cannot
12 hear you again.
13 MR BURNETT: Let me keep trying. We have Mr and
14 Mrs Dauzonne coming on Monday morning, so that is two
15 Dauzonnes. We then have listed M Darmon, who is the
16 driver for M Rat. We understand that he has been
17 summonsed. M Rat, the position is that no one knows
18 where he is at the moment and efforts are continuing to
19 try to locate where he is.
20 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Darmon might have some idea.
21 MR BURNETT: One would hope so. One would hope so. But,
22 sir, we shall just have to wait and see what the
23 position is regarding the paparazzi on Monday and
24 beyond.
25 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes. Very well. So it is

95

1 possible that we may have a short day on Monday?
2 MR BURNETT: Yes, sir.
3 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We will have to wait and see.
4 MR BURNETT: Yes, sir. There are, as you know, one or two
5 matters of administration and law that might need to be
6 dealt with some time early next week.
7 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: As far as that is concerned,
8 there is one particular matter outstanding --
9 MR BURNETT: Yes.
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: -- but I understand that there
11 are still further matters that one or other party may
12 wish to put forward. We do not want to have material
13 put in at the very last minute and it may be that it is
14 more realistic to deal with that on Tuesday.
15 MR BURNETT: Sir, one of the difficulties that we may have
16 to confront concerns the timetabling of the hearing from
17 or reading of paparazzi witnesses, and next week is a
18 little uncertain, to put it mildly.
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We are obviously doing our best,
20 members of the jury, and we will keep you informed as
21 early as we possibly can. But it will be a 9.30 start
22 on Monday morning and we will have to take it from
23 there. But we have another witness at 4 o'clock this
24 afternoon from America.
25 MR BURNETT: Sir, Mr Hilliard will be taking the American

96

1 witness, who is Mr Clarence Williams. From soundings
2 around with my colleagues, it is hoped he will not take
3 too long, so an hour or an hour and a half should be
4 adequate to deal with Mr Williams' evidence.
5 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: The absolute deadline is
6 6 o'clock from the jury's point of view and probably the
7 sanity of everyone else too. We will see how we go and
8 adjourn until 4 o'clock. Thank you.
9 (3.20 pm)
10 (A short break)
11 (4.00 pm)
12 (Jury present)
13 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I call Mr Williams. It is
14 page 388 [INQ0000548 - read out in court], isn't it, Mr Hilliard?
15 MR HILLIARD: Yes, it is.
16 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Can you hear us, Mr Williams?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, I can.
18 MR CLARENCE ELLIOTT WILLIAMS (affirmed)
19 (Evidence via videolink)
20 Questions from MR HILLIARD
21 MR HILLIARD: Is your name Clarence Elliott Williams?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Mr Williams, my name is Nicholas Hilliard and I am going
24 to ask you some questions first of all on behalf of the
25 Coroner.

97

1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Mr Williams, I am going to be asking you about events at
3 the end of August 1997 in Paris.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I think shortly after what you had seen in the tunnel --
6 we will go into the detail -- but whilst you were still
7 in Paris, did you have some contact with French police
8 officers?
9 A. I believe I talked to them over the telephone once.
10 Q. Then, in due course, I think in March of 2005, did you
11 speak to British police officers?
12 A. Yes, I did, in my office.
13 Q. That is the date that we have on a witness statement you
14 made.
15 A. Yes, that was in my office in Sacramento.
16 Q. I think particularly when you were in Paris you had some
17 contact with journalists, is that right?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. But apart from those occasions that we have dealt with,
20 have you given your account at any other time to
21 anybody?
22 A. Well, there were interviews at CNN and interviews with
23 the journalists while in Paris.
24 Q. But apart from those? That is really what I am talking
25 about.

98

1 A. No.
2 Q. Just so we have full picture, have you been paid any
3 money or any compensation at any time in the past for
4 information about events that night?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Do you have any hope or expectation that you are going
7 to be paid in the future for information about events?
8 A. No.
9 Q. So you understand, those are questions we have been
10 asking of all witnesses, not just you.
11 A. Fine.
12 Q. All right. Mr Williams, I think on 31st August 1997 you
13 were in Paris on holiday. Is that right?
14 A. Yes, I was.
15 Q. I am going to take the background very shortly with you
16 because it is not in dispute at all. All right?
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. I think you had arranged with two friends,
19 Michael Walker and Stanley Culbreath, to meet them in
20 London on Friday 29th August. Is that right?
21 A. That is right.
22 Q. Then you were going to do a tour of London, Paris and
23 Amsterdam. Is that right?
24 A. That is right.
25 Q. Can you just help with this, because I think we have had

99

1 difficulty getting in touch with them, but have you had
2 recent contact with Michael and/or Stanley?
3 A. Yes, I have.
4 Q. They have not moved address or job or anything like that
5 recently?
6 A. No, not to my knowledge.
7 Q. Now, having met up, the three of you, in London, I think
8 you arrived in Paris at about lunchtime on Saturday
9 30th August. Is that right?
10 A. That is right.
11 Q. The hotel you stayed in was called, I think, "Dauphin
12 St Germain", in somewhere called Rue Dauphine; correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. I am just going to ask that we turn in a bundle of plans
15 and photographs that we have to page 6
16 [INQ-JB1-0000006]. Just so we can see, Mr Williams,
17 the road where your hotel was in -- I do not know
18 how well you can see this, but if you look at the
19 bottom-right corner of the plan, there is a bridge that
20 is marked "Pont Neuf". Can you see that?
21 A. Yes, I can.
22 Q. If you followed the bridge south, as it were, on the
23 plan, can you see that the road below is Rue Dauphine?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. It was in that street that your hotel was?

100

1 A. Yes, it was.
2 Q. We can lose the plan now. You and Michael were going to
3 be in one room and Stanley had a room on a different
4 floor; is that right?
5 A. That is right.
6 Q. I think you took a cab to the hotel.
7 A. We had a driver -- it was not an official cab, but
8 we had a driver that we met at the airport.
9 Q. Once you had got to your hotel, I think you changed and
10 then went out in the afternoon. Is that right?
11 A. Well, we were walking. We went out in the afternoon,
12 yes.
13 Q. I am taking these details from your statement. I think
14 you got back to the hotel at about 7 or 8 in the
15 evening.
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. The driver, who you have told us about already, I think
18 was due to come back at about 10 o'clock to pick you up
19 to go out in the evening?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. He did that, and did you go on a tour of the city with
22 him?
23 A. Yes, we did.
24 Q. I think as best you recall it, his car was
25 a light-coloured Peugeot four-door saloon. Is that

101

1 right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And his name, as you remember it, the driver was Malo;
4 is that right?
5 A. Yes, something to that effect. I cannot be absolutely
6 certain, but something to that effect.
7 Q. I think, doing the best you can to estimate time, you
8 thought that at about half past 11 or quarter to
9 midnight you arrived at the area of the Eiffel Tower?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. You stayed for some time there and then had a discussion
12 about getting something to eat?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. I think, having gone all the way to Paris, you decided
15 that you wanted some fried chicken. Is that right?
16 A. Yes. You are never too far from home.
17 Q. We understand.
18 All right. So off you went to see if you could find
19 somewhere to get some of that. Yes?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. It was in the course of that journey that you found
22 yourself going into what I am sure you now know, but no
23 doubt did not know then, was the Alma Tunnel.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Again, Mr Williams, I am going to take these events from

102

1 your statement quite shortly because, you may or may not
2 know, but we have already heard quite a lot of evidence
3 about these events.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. Down you went into the tunnel and you then discovered
6 that cars in front of you were stopping?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Now you did actually, I think, draw a sketch plan,
9 didn't you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you have it there with you?
12 A. I believe so.
13 Q. You have it there if you need it. I am not, for the
14 moment, going to ask us to look at it because we are
15 pretty familiar with the scene in the tunnel.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. As you went forward, edging forward in the traffic, did
18 you become aware of the crashed vehicle that was, as it
19 were, on the other side of the road to you?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Because you were coming in a different direction from
22 that car. You were coming back towards the centre of
23 Paris, weren't you?
24 A. I just know I was going in a different direction.
25 I don't know if I was -- I don't have the --

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1 Q. All right. Will you take it from me that we know that
2 the direction you were going in would be coming into
3 the centre of Paris?
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. Your response, I think, or of those in the car, was to
6 in fact put your seat-belts on. You were one of the
7 back-seat passengers, is that right?
8 A. Yes. The response -- we had put our seat-belts on
9 because of the driver's driving habits in Paris were
10 very risky.
11 Q. All right. Had you had them on before you had seen
12 the accident?
13 A. Yes, I believe we had them on before.
14 Q. Just help us. We can work out where the driver was, but
15 where were the three of you in the car?
16 A. It was a left-hand drive, left-side drive. Stanley was
17 in the right front passenger seat, Michael was in
18 the left rear passenger seat and I was in the right rear
19 passenger seat and Malo was obviously driving.
20 Q. As well as damage that you could see to the vehicle,
21 I think you were able to see somebody in one of the
22 front seats of the car. Is that right?
23 A. Yes, a partial view of them, yes.
24 Q. Then I think you were able to see some people standing
25 around the crashed car at the rear of it?

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1 A. The rear -- I would say around the car. I would say
2 around the car, several places.
3 Q. About how many people did you see around the car?
4 A. My impression that evening would have been five/six, if
5 I had been asked without seeing the photos.
6 Q. Did you see a photographer holding a camera who was in
7 front of the vehicle?
8 A. Upon leaving the tunnel, I saw a photographer who was
9 shooting back into the tunnel and I recognised because
10 he had a very long lens on his camera.
11 Q. As you went past, was there also somebody there who
12 appeared to be trying to block your view of the crash?
13 A. While we were sitting in the car and Michael was taking
14 the pictures, there was a gentleman that appeared to be
15 sort of deliberately sort of blocking the window at
16 which Michael was sitting, the left rear window. He was
17 very circumspect about it. He was not waving. He just
18 sort of nonchalantly backed up into the window.
19 Q. You mentioned there Michael taking some pictures. At
20 what stage was it that he was doing that?
21 A. When the car stopped, having just left the Eiffel Tower,
22 he had the camera sitting on his lap. The car stopped.
23 We were commenting about the extent of the crash to
24 the vehicle and Michael just had his camera and picked
25 it up and just started snapping pictures.

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1 Q. We have the pictures, Mr Williams, and we are going hand
2 out copies of them at this end. They will come up on
3 the screen one by one and we will look at them with you.
4 All right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I think the next divider that is free is divider 8. If
7 there is something in there already, that is my mistake.
8 I think that one should be empty.
9 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you.
10 MR HILLIARD: Mr Williams, they will look a bit different
11 now because what has happened, you will see when they
12 come up, is that where it has been possible, with more
13 information, to identify particular individuals, then
14 that has happened on the pictures. But obviously you
15 will realise that difference when you see it.
16 So if we can just have the first photograph. We
17 will just go through them with you. That is number 1
18 [INQ-JB7-0000002]. If we can have number 2
19 [INQ-JB7-0000003] up please?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. 3 [INQ-JB7-0000004], 4 [INQ-JB7-0000005], 5
22 [INQ-JB7-0000006] and 6 [INQ-JB7-0000007].
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Mr Williams, I am not suggesting every detail of them,
25 but do you remember those now as being the photographs

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1 that Michael took?
2 A. Yes, they are. I remember that.
3 Q. The other thing I want to ask you about is this: do you
4 remember, as you went past, hearing an argument taking
5 place amongst people near the crashed vehicle?
6 A. I think what we heard were loud voices, some yelling.
7 Distinctively, as to whether it was an argument,
8 I cannot say, but there were some loud voices going back
9 and forth in (indistinct).
10 Q. Just the other thing is this: we mentioned seeing
11 somebody in the front seat of the crashed vehicle.
12 I think that was the front passenger seat. Is that
13 right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Your recollection is that you may have seen the door
16 open and you may have seen that person's feet outside
17 the vehicle. Is that right?
18 A. Well, yes, because -- yes, that is what I recall.
19 Q. Well I think you then continued on your journey and left
20 the tunnel --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- and I think you eventually got back to your hotel at
23 about 2 or 3 in the morning. Is that right?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. In your room, I think you and Michael had left the

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1 television on while you were out so it was still on when
2 you came back.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And I think you saw some information on the news about
5 the car crash. Is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is this right, mentioning, you think, that
8 Mr Dodi Al Fayed had died in the car crash?
9 A. Either that he had died or that he had been in an
10 accident, serious. I do not know if they confirmed his
11 death -- I am trying to recall -- but his name was
12 mentioned.
13 Q. Did Michael decide to call CNN in Atlanta?
14 A. Not at that time. Not at that time.
15 Q. But relatively soon after seeing that on the television,
16 did he make that decision?
17 A. Yes. It was after the second news announcement came on,
18 mentioning the Princess link.
19 Q. So then it was Michael contacts CNN in Atlanta.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. By then making contact with CNN in Paris,
22 the arrangement was, is this right, that somebody was
23 going to pick the three of you up from your hotel?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Sure enough, I think the three of you were collected and

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1 taken to a television studio. Is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you decide to let them develop Michael's
4 photographs?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were the three of you actually interviewed on
7 television --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- about what you had seen in the tunnel?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I think you estimate that you left the television studio
12 at about sunrise on Sunday 31st August --
13 A. Did you say "Monday"?
14 Q. "Sunday". On the Sunday?
15 A. Sunday, yes.
16 Q. And got back to the hotel at about 7 or 8 on the Sunday
17 morning?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now the rest of that Sunday, did you take part in any
20 more interviews?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you remember anything else that you did on
23 the Sunday?
24 A. To the best of my knowledge, we were -- reporters
25 followed us from CNN to the hotel. Within the lobby,

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1 sort of small eating area, they set up shop, so to
2 speak. There were six/seven or more reporters.
3 We talked to them, interviewed with them. I think one
4 television station from the United -- television
5 network, ABC, scanned some pictures. London, London
6 Times. And we spent a considerable amount of time;
7 we spent, I would say, most, if not all, of the day
8 there in the hotel.
9 Q. I want to come on then to Monday. Was Stanley still
10 with you on the Monday or not?
11 A. I think -- if I recall correctly, I believe Stanley left
12 Monday, Monday morning some time. He was with us first
13 in the morning, but I believe he spent that day going.
14 He told us he was going to Amsterdam.
15 Q. Can you help us please with what you and Michael did in
16 the course of the day on Monday?
17 A. Monday we did more interviews. I recall -- I believe
18 speaking to various media persons back here in
19 the United States, specifically San Francisco and
20 Sacramento, and I believe -- and I am not certain
21 whether it was Sunday or Monday -- I was called and went
22 to Reuters and did interviews similar to this with
23 a television programme that I believe was in Australia
24 at that time.
25 Q. So subject to the question of whether Reuters was Sunday

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1 or Monday, Monday was pretty much like Sunday in
2 the sense that it was more contact with the media?
3 A. Yes, because I did make a note that we did not get
4 beyond, I would say, 100 yards from the hotel in those
5 two days. I was very disappointed with that.
6 Q. What about the Monday evening? What did you do then
7 please?
8 A. Monday evening, earlier in the day, we had returned to
9 the tunnel, I believe with CBS, and I recall that it was
10 getting dark because it was about to rain and that was
11 the threat, and the CBS reporter and the producer wanted
12 to get us there before that occurred. After that, CBS
13 paid for dinner for us at a restaurant that was very
14 near the hotel. Michael and I went to the restaurant to
15 have dinner.
16 Q. Now, apart from staff in the course of the meal, whilst
17 you were in the restaurant, did anybody talk to you?
18 A. Other than the -- while we were in the restaurant, just
19 the person -- the maitre d' or whoever served us. That
20 was about it. We did not have any conversations.
21 Q. What about when you left the restaurant? Did you speak
22 to anybody then?
23 A. Yes, there was a gentleman -- and I noticed him when
24 we went into the restaurant because it was unusual that,
25 you know, we were facing directly towards him when

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1 we went in and he was staring at us or looking at us.
2 A little more unusual than I would imagine others were.
3 I recall, as we were leaving, he got up and left at
4 the same time as we were. He had been there before
5 we arrived and left when we were leaving and approached
6 us and asked us if we were the ones who had been on
7 television, had been in the tunnel, et cetera.
8 Q. What did you say to that?
9 A. We said "Yes, we had".
10 Q. Did he say anything about his involvement in these
11 events?
12 A. Yes, he mentioned that he too had been in tunnel, that
13 he had gone to -- I do not know the exact name but
14 the police had gathered him up in some way, either asked
15 or taken him, and others who were in the tunnel, to some
16 police office, headquarters or what have you, and asked
17 them questions about the accident that evening. He was
18 surprised that we had not been questioned at that time.
19 Q. By this time, by the Monday evening, had any of the
20 three of you been to any police station in connection
21 with these events?
22 A. No. No.
23 Q. Did you say anything to him or was anything said to him
24 about Michael's photographs?
25 A. Yes, we mentioned that we had photographs and

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1 we started -- I guess we had that in some sort of bond
2 that all three of us had been there. He had told us he
3 was a consultant, I believe information technology. He
4 was from California, Silicon Valley. So there were
5 a lot of coincidences there.
6 We talked -- I guess caught up in the excitement of
7 all of us having been there, even what he asked, and
8 we said yes, he could see the pictures and we showed him
9 the photographs --
10 Q. Pause a moment. Where were the photographs?
11 A. The photographs were at the hotel in our room.
12 Q. And whereabouts in the room?
13 A. To the best I can recall, and this is just -- when
14 Michael -- I think they were in the night-stand over
15 near his bed.
16 Q. The "night-stand", do you mean the little cupboard by
17 the bed?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. You have been asked, I think, whether the name
20 "Brian Anderson" means anything to you. I think when
21 you were asked in 2005, it did not ring any bells. Is
22 that right?
23 A. I could not recall the gentleman's name. I knew it for
24 a while, but I could not recall that name.
25 Q. When the photographs were retrieved from the cupboard,

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1 had he gone to the room with the two of you?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. How long did you spend with him back at the hotel on the
4 Monday evening?
5 A. He may have been there 15/20 minutes at the most.
6 Q. Then the Tuesday --
7 A. When we came out of the restaurant, the road was sort of
8 like a T, it formed a T into the Rue Dauphine, and as
9 we came out, he indicated that his hotel was to
10 the right and our hotel was to the left. It was not
11 a very long street, but it was very nearby.
12 Q. Then just finally, please, the Tuesday -- because
13 I think you left Paris on the Wednesday to come back to
14 London; is that right?
15 A. Yes, we came back to London on our way to Amsterdam.
16 Q. Can you help us, please, with how you spent the Tuesday,
17 just in general terms?
18 A. Tuesday morning we were awakened -- when I say "awaken",
19 I don't exactly what time -- by a call from the
20 Associated Press offices in Paris on the right bank.
21 They were interested in Michael's photographs and asked
22 if we could come by their offices because they were
23 interested in purchasing or using the photographs.
24 Q. So --
25 A. And we subsequently went over to the Associated Press

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1 offices.
2 Q. Having done that, did you then go shopping before you
3 got a taxi back to the hotel in the afternoon?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And --
6 A. We walked around Paris.
7 Q. Then I think Michael was not feeling very well. Had he
8 got a problem with his kidneys, something like that?
9 A. Yes, because he had an operation right after he got back
10 to the States.
11 Q. So after you had got back, I think he remained at
12 the hotel and you went out again?
13 A. Yes, he went to the hotel and I went out to do -- to get
14 some souvenirs, shopping for friends.
15 Q. When you came back, was Michael there or not?
16 A. He was not there.
17 Q. Did you find out where he had gone?
18 A. Yes, the lady at the front desk indicated that the
19 officials or the police had come by and that Michael had
20 gone with them, and she had a card, I believe, in her
21 hand and indicated to me that they wanted to talk to me.
22 She made the call, I talked with someone on the
23 phone and, basically, the inquiry was to the extent that
24 I had anything more to offer in terms of information
25 than what Mr Walker had, and I think it was "no" and

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1 that was it.
2 Q. Was that the only contact that you had with the police
3 while you were there?
4 A. That is the only contact I had.
5 Q. Then I think, in due course, Michael returned. Is that
6 right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I think you went out and looked at the building where he
9 had gone to see the police. Is that right?
10 A. Well, we -- as I said, other than the trip over to the
11 Associated Press, that was the first time that we had
12 actually been out, as I said, more than 100 metres or
13 100 yards from our hotel. So we were resigned to try to
14 get out and see at least some of Paris.
15 We had missed several things and a part of that was
16 crossing the bridge and seeing the building. Michael
17 was very descriptive of it because it had been described
18 to him as "medieval", and Michael's description to me of
19 it was of it being "dungeon-like". So we walked by and
20 we saw the media and the trucks and the (indistinct) all
21 out front.
22 Q. Then, as you have already said, the next day you came
23 back to England on the way to Amsterdam.
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 MR HILLIARD: If you remain there, please, Mr Williams,

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1 there may be some other questions. Thank you very much.
2 A. I did not understand what you just said.
3 MR HILLIARD: Can you hear me now? I was just saying thank
4 you very much. If you just wait there, there may be
5 some other questions.
6 A. Okay, okay. Thank you.
7 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield?
8 Questions from MR MANSFIELD
9 MR MANSFIELD: Good morning, Mr Williams. I say good
10 morning; it is for you. Can you hear all right?
11 A. Yes, I can hear you now.
12 Q. My name is Michael Mansfield and I represent
13 Mohamed Al Fayed, whose son was killed in the crash.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. A very few questions. It really concerns the man you
16 met when you left the restaurant. It is just that bit.
17 A. Okay, yes.
18 Q. I appreciate you don't remember his name. Do you agree
19 that in fact, once you had got back to the hotel with
20 him, you did in fact give him your business card, didn't
21 you?
22 A. I could have, very well could have, yes.
23 Q. I am not going to embarrass you by reading out the
24 details on it, but we have a copy of that card which he
25 gave the British police. Do you follow?

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1 A. I would not be embarrassed that he had my card. I just
2 did not know whether I gave it to him or not.
3 Q. It is not having the card. I do not want to read out
4 the details in public, unless you don't mind. It has
5 all your telephone numbers and the company --
6 A. Oh, I appreciate that. Thank you.
7 Q. So when you met him, he made it very clear that in fact
8 he had been taken to the police headquarters in Paris,
9 didn't he? He actually said that he had been taken to
10 the police headquarters?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. That he had been interviewed?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that they had retained his passport?
15 A. He could have said that. I do not recall specifically,
16 but he could have said that.
17 Q. Well, I am putting it to you because it is certainly in
18 the recollection of your colleague that he did say
19 something about that -- in other words, Michael
20 remembers that that is something that --
21 A. That very well could be.
22 Q. Right. Had you, up to that point, either of you, that
23 is you or Michael, considered going to the police
24 yourselves?
25 A. No.

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1 Q. And the reason?
2 A. We thought that we had been on CNN, that everyone had
3 given -- remember people recognised us, that if
4 the police were interested in talking to us, that they
5 would have approached us.
6 Q. But up to that point, that is the point when you met
7 this particular man, you had not gone to them --
8 A. No.
9 Q. -- and they had not come to you?
10 A. No, they had not, no.
11 Q. I only want a rough estimate. How many televised
12 interviews do you think you had given by the Monday
13 evening, 10 o'clock or 10.30, when you left
14 the restaurant? Roughly how many?
15 A. Five, six, four.
16 Q. Five or six. That will do. You go back to the hotel.
17 He, that is the gentleman, looks at the photographs.
18 It is just one question about that. When you were asked
19 by the British police where the photographs were kept --
20 and I am going to save you having to look at your
21 statement but you can if you want -- this is what you
22 told them:
23 "They were left in our room at the hotel, but
24 I cannot recall where exactly they had been left."
25 Is that fair?

119

1 A. That is fair.
2 Q. One more thing. The next day, that is the Tuesday,
3 the police come to the hotel and take Michael to
4 the headquarters, don't they?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I do not know whether you can help -- I am having to do
7 it through you for various reasons -- do you know that
8 in fact, when Michael was taken, the police asked him to
9 bring his passport and the film that he had taken?
10 A. I do know they asked for his film. That is the part
11 that he told me. I do not recall anything about
12 the passport.
13 Q. All right. I will leave that.
14 A. That does not surprise me.
15 Q. When you made contact with the police or they made
16 contact with you, the same day, over the telephone, do
17 you happen to remember -- I know it is a long time ago
18 and you may not, but sometimes names stick in people's
19 minds -- do you know who it was at the French police who
20 spoke to you or not?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You did not make a note?
23 A. No. In fact I had his card but I misplaced it a long
24 time ago, because I recall looking for it. He left
25 a card at the hotel and the lady called, but I misplaced

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1 that card.
2 MR MANSFIELD: I cannot take it any further.
3 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Keen?
4 Questions from MR KEEN
5 MR KEEN: Good morning, Mr Williams. My name is
6 Richard Keen. I wonder if I could ask you a very few
7 questions. I wonder if we could look at one of
8 Michael's photographs. It will be put up on the screen.
9 It is photograph number 5. That is INQ0026411,
10 I believe [INQ-JB7-0000006].
11 Can you see that photograph, Mr Williams? If you
12 look to the far left-hand side of the photograph, you
13 will notice that there is a person in uniform whom we
14 are advised is a policeman. Do you see him?
15 A. I am looking at you now, not the photograph.
16 Q. Perhaps they can show you the photograph. It would be
17 rather more informative than a picture of me, I suspect.
18 A. Yes, I can see that.
19 Q. Do you happen to recall, Mr Williams, how many policemen
20 there were at the scene of the crash as you passed on
21 that night?
22 A. My only recollection of actually seeing someone in
23 uniform like that was after we received the photographs
24 back.
25 Q. I see.

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1 A. I did not recall seeing any police while we were
2 actually in the tunnel.
3 Q. But it would appear from this photograph that they were
4 present as you passed?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 MR KEEN: Thank you, Mr Williams, no further questions.
7 MR CROXFORD: No, thank you, sir.
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Horwell?
9 Questions from MR HORWELL
10 MR HORWELL: Good morning, Mr Williams. My name is
11 Richard Horwell and I appear on behalf of the Chief of
12 London Police.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. I also only have a few questions to ask you and they
15 relate to the man that you met when you left the
16 restaurant. We know him as Mr Anderson. So can
17 I please keep calling him that? I know you don't
18 remember the name --
19 A. That is fine.
20 Q. But we know him as Mr Anderson. Now he has said in
21 a statement that he saw you and Michael at the
22 Brigade Criminelle headquarters on the Sunday and on the
23 Monday. Now, that cannot be right from what you have
24 said?
25 A. Absolutely not.

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1 Q. You had never met him before. He was a complete
2 stranger to you; is that right?
3 A. That is right, yes.
4 Q. And as far as you knew, a complete stranger to Michael?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. For him to have recognised the pair of you, he must have
7 seen you on television, must he not?
8 A. I would think so.
9 Q. There cannot be any other explanation, can there?
10 A. Not to my knowledge.
11 Q. You said to the jury a few minutes ago that when you and
12 Michael met him, you were sharing your experiences.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. We can all understand what you meant by that. But did
15 Mr Anderson tell you what he had seen of this incident?
16 A. Yes, he -- the conversation was about what he had seen,
17 yes.
18 Q. What did he say he had seen?
19 A. Basically it was that he was in the tunnel -- not in
20 the tunnel, but near the tunnel at or about the time, in
21 the tunnel, something to that effect; that he -- by
22 seeing the crash, either the aftermath, he had either
23 heard it or the aftermath of the crash, and he was just
24 in the vicinity, the near vicinity. I think that was
25 the --

123

1 Q. And that was it, was it?
2 A. That was it. That was it.
3 Q. Now you have said in a statement that you were
4 suspicious of Mr Anderson and thought that he might have
5 been exaggerating when at the restaurant.
6 A. Well --
7 Q. What made you say that?
8 A. Well, I think the first thing in terms of my suspicion
9 of him was the nature of the coincidence. I recall,
10 after leaving the restaurant, that he had been staring
11 at us as we came in, and then for him to still be there
12 after we had ate -- because it was not a quick dinner,
13 we did stay there some while -- I just thought that that
14 was strange. Then for him to approach us, that he
15 recognised us, that he was there, we were there, he was
16 from California, that was all, I think, sort of suspect.
17 My suspicion of him came when the police finally
18 showed up a day later; in other words, after having been
19 there for a couple of days, after that night, having
20 been on CNN, they had not come to us, but after we met
21 with him, then they showed up. My suspicion of him
22 further increased when, after being back in the States,
23 Michael called me and said that he recognised him on
24 television.
25 Q. Can you pause there? I am going to come to that as

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1 a separate incident.
2 A. That is fine. Sorry.
3 Q. I still have you in Paris, do you understand?
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. We have not left yet.
6 A. Okay.
7 Q. He went with you and Michael back to your hotel room.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. He has made a statement in which he has said that the
10 six photographs that we have just seen were hidden
11 behind a picture in the hotel room. Now is that
12 possible, Mr Williams?
13 A. Yes, it is possible, but I do not recall them being hid
14 behind a photo or anything. They could have been.
15 Michael was the one who had possession of the
16 photographs.
17 Q. Michael remembers them being in his suitcase.
18 A. That is possible and likely too.
19 Q. But was there any mystery about these photographs by
20 this time?
21 A. No. We were not, you know, protective, overly
22 protective, of the photographs or anything up to that
23 point, no.
24 Q. Some journalists already had copies of these
25 photographs, did they not?

125

1 A. Precisely, yes.
2 Q. Can you help as to how many journalists had scanned
3 these negatives or taken copies of photographs, just to
4 give us an idea? Under five, more than five?
5 A. I would say somewhere in the neighbourhood of five, yes.
6 Q. So there was no mystery about these photographs. They
7 had already effectively been released to the world?
8 A. Correct, correct.
9 Q. Can you think of any reason why either you or Michael
10 would have wanted to have hidden these photographs
11 behind a picture in your hotel room?
12 A. Not at all, not at all.
13 Q. Now, can I move on to the incident that you were about
14 to give evidence about, Mr Williams? This was about
15 a month later when you were back home in the States;
16 yes?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You received a telephone call from Michael and he asked
19 you whether you could remember -- to use your words --
20 "the guy that came to your hotel room"?
21 A. That we met at the restaurant and he came to the hotel,
22 yes.
23 Q. Did Michael say that he had seen the man we know as
24 "Mr Anderson" on the television, a programme called
25 "20/20"?

126

1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you make sure that later that day -- I think you
3 were three hours ahead of Michael, is that right?
4 A. Correct -- three hours later.
5 Q. Did you make sure that that night, when you got home,
6 you saw this television programme?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. How many different television programmes did you see at
9 this time showing an interview of Mr Anderson? Was it
10 just the one or more than one?
11 A. I believe I saw him on another one after this one. This
12 was the first time I saw him. I believe I saw him on
13 another one.
14 Q. Now you have said in your statement, Mr Williams, "My
15 impression was that he was saying that he had seen far
16 more than he had led us to believe that he had seen when
17 we met him in Paris".
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you, a few days later, telephone Vicky Maybury, one
20 of the interviewers, and did you tell her that he was
21 mentioning bikes and cars during the course of this
22 interview that he had never told you about when you were
23 in Paris?
24 A. Correct. I think it was she contacted me. I think she
25 called up me.

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1 Q. I think at an earlier stage you had said to the British
2 police that Mr Anderson's story seemed to get better
3 each time he appeared.
4 A. Yes, it did.
5 Q. Now, why were you suspicious about these events,
6 Mr Williams?
7 A. Well, I will say in the very beginning, before actually
8 seeing him on television on the 20/20 programme,
9 I always wondered why the police waited to contact us
10 three days afterwards and in my mind, without having any
11 facts, I believed it was because of this Mr Anderson and
12 I was suspicious as to whether or not he was not
13 connected in some way or in some official capacity with
14 law enforcement.
15 Q. Right.
16 A. That was my -- it was just too coincidental for
17 everything in my mind.
18 The next thing that became suspicious is in fact
19 when Michael called me to tell me. The way
20 the conversation went, he said, "Do you remember that
21 guy in Paris, the restaurant, the hotel?", and before he
22 could tell me that he was going to be on 20/20,
23 I thought he was going to tell me that he had found out
24 that he was in law enforcement or something.
25 When he came on and I saw the programme that night,

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1 I think it was about motorcycles and cars. There was
2 far more clarity in his conversation in that interview
3 and in subsequent newspaper articles and television
4 programmes than on that night when we talked outside
5 the restaurant, when he came to the hotel and we were
6 sharing, you know, our recollections in, as you would
7 say, the excitement and the coincidence of all of us
8 having been there at the same time.
9 Q. Had he ever mentioned bikes and a car to you when in
10 Paris?
11 A. No. His conversation was strictly about being there,
12 having seen the accident, no more, no less than us,
13 except that he, I think, was -- yes, no more or less
14 than what we had seen, but he was just there.
15 MR HORWELL: Mr Williams, thank you very much. That is all
16 I ask. Thank you.
17 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Hilliard, any more questions?
18 MR HILLIARD: No, thank you very much.
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Williams, thank you very much.
20 We are very grateful to you for giving up your time and
21 coming to give evidence for us. Thank you.
22 A. Thank you.
23 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: That is as far as we go until
24 9.30 on Monday.
25 Members of the jury, there is one matter I want to

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1 raise with counsel about the administration in
2 the future, so I will deal with that after you have
3 gone.
4 (Jury out)
5 Discussion re RULE 37
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I think this mainly concerns
7 Mr Keen. I think he is taking the lead on the rule 37
8 issue as to disputed statements. It may be that you are
9 not, but we can start with you anyway. The position
10 seems to be this: first of all we have to resolve what
11 the legal position is in France. I think that it is
12 clear as far as we are concerned, but there seems to be
13 some doubt that you may have a different view about it
14 or those instructing you may be getting a different view
15 about it and I am anxious to know whether there is any
16 difference and, if so, what it is and we need to resolve
17 it.
18 MR KEEN: Of course, sir. This is a matter that I in fact
19 mentioned to Mr Burnett earlier today. Part of the
20 difficulty is that a series of questions have been posed
21 by us regarding the position in France and, as we see
22 it -- and this is not a criticism -- the answers do not
23 really address some of the questions.
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We have been putting similar
25 questions since July and we are not, until recently,

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1 very happy with the answers that we have been getting
2 because they do not always address our concerns.
3 MR KEEN: A request was made if Mr Smith could in fact copy
4 us in on the exchanges and he said that he could not or
5 would not do that, so we don't know what the position is
6 regarding the exchanges, although given that these are
7 not adversarial proceedings, it is not clear to me why
8 we should not be copied in on these exchanges.
9 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I think probably what mostly
10 concerns you is the last email and I think all he was
11 doing was trying to put it into slightly better
12 language. But it may be that the answer is that you
13 should have the original.
14 MR KEEN: It would be useful if we could see the exchanges
15 because it might enable us to put into context what the
16 problem appears to be at the French end.
17 If I can summarise our perception of the position
18 which has been informed by advice from lawyers in Paris.
19 Clearly, sir, you sought assistance from the French by
20 way of a letter of request.
21 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
22 MR KEEN: That letter of request was acceded to or granted
23 by the French authorities. Thereafter, pursuant to
24 article 694 of the code of criminal procedure, the
25 matter is handled by the French authorities as if

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1 we were, in fact, a French domestic tribunal.
2 Our understanding is that consequently, and in
3 pursuance of their obligation to give mutual assistance
4 in pursuance of the letter of request, the French
5 authorities are able to summons witnesses to appear in
6 Paris before the videolink that has been set up.
7 Furthermore, under the terms of the code of criminal
8 procedure, we are advised that those witnesses are
9 required to appear in response to the summons, are
10 required to take the oath or to affirm and are required
11 to testify.
12 The only qualification that would arise is if any
13 individual cited as a witness was in fact going to be
14 the subject of prosecution or complaint. In the event
15 that any witness properly summonsed in response to
16 the letter of request declines to appear or to take
17 the oath or to testify, they are liable for what we
18 would perceive to be a contempt under French domestic
19 law and various penalties may follow.
20 Now, what we were advised by Mr Smith was that
21 although a letter of request had been granted, you, as
22 coroner, had no authority to require these individual
23 witnesses to actually attend and to actually take
24 the oath or affirm and to actually testify. But that,
25