24 October 2007 - Afternoon session
6 (2.10 pm)
7 (Jury present)
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Can you hear us in Paris?
9 MR GUARDELLI: Yes, we can, sir.
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I call next Mr Morel.
11 MR GUARDELLI: They are just waiting -- they are just in
12 the corridor, the magistrates.
13 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: We are ready now, sir.
14 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you very much, Mr Morel.
15 MR JACQUES MOREL (sworn)
16 (Evidence via videolink, interpreted)
17 Questions from MR HILLIARD
18 MR HILLIARD: Good afternoon, Mr Morel. My name is
19 Nicholas Hilliard and I am going to ask you some
20 questions, first of all on behalf of the Coroner.
21 As you will appreciate, the interpreter is there to
22 translate every word you say. So if you speak at too
23 great length, she may not be able to remember everything
24 you have said; all right? So please will you try to
25 break up your answers?
87
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. Thank you. Before we look at some of the details of
3 your account, I want to start with some of the history.
4 You witnessed some events in the Alma Tunnel in
5 the early hours of Sunday 31st August of 1997?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. Is this right, that within a few days you saw the police
8 and gave an account to them?
9 A. Yes, sir, two days after.
10 Q. They say -- and we will look at the detail in
11 a minute -- that that was on 3rd September 1997. Do you
12 agree with that date?
13 A. Yes, yes. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Have you had a chance to see a copy of that statement
15 today?
16 A. Yes, I have.
17 Q. Then later I think you were seen by an examining
18 magistrate.
19 A. Yes, sir, Marie-Christine Devidal.
20 Q. She says that that was on 16th September 1997. Again,
21 do you agree with that date?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Have you had a chance to see a copy of that record?
24 A. Yes, sir, I have.
25 Q. Then, on 5th June of 1998, is this right, that you were
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1 present before the judge at what is described as
2 a "confrontation"?
3 A. The general confrontation?
4 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is asking if -- are you
5 speaking about the general confrontation?
6 MR HILLIARD: It was a confrontation at which ten of the
7 paparazzi who were under investigation were present --
8 A. Yes, yes, sir.
9 Q. -- and nine witnesses. Do you remember?
10 A. I do not remember. Maybe. I did not take any account
11 of the number of witnesses present that day. But no
12 witness being present on that very day were close to me
13 at the time of the crash in the tunnel, except a British
14 witness.
15 Q. We will come on to that later. I just want to do
16 the history for now.
17 Is this right, that at that confrontation the
18 suspects were asked questions and you had the
19 opportunity to make comments?
20 A. The suspects were not questioned.
21 Q. Did you have the opportunity to make comments?
22 A. Yes, you are right, sorry. In the second part of this
23 confrontation, because it was a very long confrontation,
24 in the second part, the suspects were questioned, were
25 asked questions. But as far as the witnesses were
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1 concerned, the first witness to be questioned at that
2 time, it was myself. It was me.
3 Q. Right. Do you have a record of that confrontation
4 there? The one we have is 49 or so pages long.
5 A. No, sir.
6 Q. Sorry?
7 A. No, no, sir -- oui, oui, oui. Okay, I have it now but
8 I did not see it before.
9 Q. Don't worry. Then on 9th and 10th December 2004, were
10 you seen by Metropolitan Police officers?
11 A. Yes, sir, with Mark Hodges, Mlle Jane Scotchbrook,
12 Michael Beer ... and I don't remember the last one.
13 I was for three days in London.
14 Q. Then, on 31st July 2007, do you remember seeing
15 representatives of Mr Mohamed Al Fayed?
16 A. Yes, sir, in the Ritz Hotel.
17 Q. On 25th September of this year, do you remember being
18 seen by Mr Martin Smith, the solicitor to the inquest?
19 A. Yes, sir, absolutely, and I can notice that the welcome
20 was excellent, it was outstanding.
21 Q. In addition, is this right, that you have written a book
22 about these events?
23 A. Yes, sir. It is a French book today. I hope it will be
24 translated into English tomorrow.
25 Q. You were good enough to email us a copy of it.
90
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. Has it actually been published, can you tell us?
3 A. No, sir, because in France, French publishers -- due to
4 the corrosive depositions in this book, the publishers
5 are not keen on publishing this book.
6 Q. I got that the publishers in France were not keen on
7 publishing it, but I missed the reason. What was the
8 reason?
9 THE INTERPRETER: Because of the corrosive statements.
10 Q. Because of the corrosive statements in the book?
11 A. Absolutely. These corrosive statements are statements
12 I cannot speak about today.
13 Q. Well, we will talk about as much as we can.
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Can you just help us with this? If you can find
16 a publisher -- if -- how much do you expect to make from
17 the book?
18 A. (French spoken)
19 Q. You have to pause there, please.
20 A. Mr Solicitor, I am not a writer, I am a music author,
21 and I contacted people who sold and published more than
22 50 million books in the world and these people told me
23 that we should sell 5 million books in the world of my
24 book due to the statements that are included in my book.
25 Q. All I wondered was can you give us any idea of how much
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1 you hope to make if you can get a publisher?
2 A. I have no idea. It is not a question of money for me.
3 I wrote this book only two years ago and half of the
4 revenues of the book would go to Third World children,
5 a disadvantaged children's foundation.
6 Q. We are going to come back to the book. I just want to
7 complete the history, if that is all right.
8 A. Thank you.
9 Q. Over the years, is this right, have you had contact with
10 many different people about these events?
11 A. At what level? For what purpose? People who wanted to
12 give me money so that I retracted from my deposition,
13 people who threatened me, people who agreed with me.
14 Q. Let me come to it. Let's just do it in outline.
15 Amongst others, you had contact, is this right, with
16 somebody who said that he was a former editor of
17 Paris Match?
18 A. Yes, sir. It was just after giving my deposition at the
19 magistrates, the examination magistrates.
20 Q. You say, is this right, that you were offered money to
21 change your account?
22 A. Yes, sir. I was offered 75,000 euros to change four
23 depositions which were quite tricky in this affair.
24 Q. What was his name, please?
25 A. Excuse me ... I do not remember his name. He gave me
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1 a phone number on a sheet of paper and I left this sheet
2 of paper at home. 15 days later I swallowed a piece of
3 glass and I was at hospital for 15 days between life and
4 death, and, during this period I was at hospital, my
5 flat had been visited and nothing had been stolen, nor
6 any furniture or objects, but all the phone numbers
7 related to me were taken.
8 Q. Right. But did you meet this man?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. How many times?
11 A. One time.
12 Q. For how long?
13 A. More than two hours.
14 Q. Did you speak to him on the telephone on occasions?
15 A. No, sir. He just called me once to give me
16 an appointment, but when he called me, he was already
17 downstairs at my building.
18 Q. He told you his name, is that right, but you have just
19 forgotten it?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Is this right, that you say that over the years you have
22 received threatening telephone calls?
23 A. It was not over the years; it was immediately following
24 my deposition at the police.
25 Q. And your flat was burgled, you say; is that right?
93
1 A. Yes, yes. I called immediately Judge Stephan. I was
2 receiving death threats; a grave was drawn on my door.
3 By phone call, we were death-threated. I called
4 Judge Stephan to explain him that there were some people
5 who were following me, who were threatening me, and he
6 answered "You too". So I asked him what do I do. He
7 told me that I should go to the police, that he could
8 not do anything for me.
9 Q. Mr Morel, I just, at the minute, want to get a summary,
10 an overview, of the account that you are going to give.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. We will go into some of the details a little bit later
13 on. Is this right, that you say that you met a judge in
14 France who sold you some information about the case?
15 A. No. Where did you get this information?
16 Q. Did you say that to Mr Al Fayed's representatives?
17 A. That is a problem of people who think they understand
18 both English and French and offer translation. It was
19 just a joke.
20 Q. You did say it, but it was a joke?
21 A. Not the fact, but the origin was a joke. But there is
22 a report which is actual.
23 Q. I am going to ask you about the file or dossier of
24 secret information that you speak about. Is this right?
25 You said for a joke that you had met a judge in France
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1 who had sold it to you?
2 A. Mr Al Fayed's representative asked me how did I get this
3 file. I answered that I could not give my source. They
4 asked me where did this file come from. I said that
5 it was coming directly, half of it from the court in
6 Paris and the other half from the Coroner in London.
7 They asked me, "How did you get this file?" I did not
8 know what to answer and they asked me, "Is this a real,
9 true file?", and obviously this is a true file, an
10 authentic file, and because they insisted on the origin
11 of this file, I answered joking that maybe it was
12 a magistrate who gave it to me or sold it to me. I do
13 not remember what I said exactly. But let me tell you
14 that this file does not belong to me. It is not with
15 me. It is abroad, in the hands of journalists.
16 Q. All right.
17 A. But it is true that I have been in possession of this
18 file during nearly one week abroad. It enabled me to
19 have all the statements, the interesting statements,
20 that I put in my book.
21 Q. Right. Thank you.
22 We are nearly there with the history. Is this
23 right: you say that you have received information about
24 a man called James Andanson?
25 A. I do not know where you have this information. Where
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1 did you get this information from? I have never met --
2 I have never known Mr Andanson.
3 Q. Would you listen very carefully to the question? You
4 say that you have received information about him.
5 A. Okay, okay. Yes, sir.
6 Q. You know that he is said to be dead?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Have you said, is this right, that you can prove that he
9 is not dead at all?
10 A. I did not say I could evidence. What I say is that
11 it is impossible due to the evidence which we were given
12 by the court in Millau that all the ashes of a human
13 body could be in a box of 30 centimetres by
14 30 centimetres.
15 I have asked experts who specialise in burning
16 bodies and they told me that in order to burn a human
17 body, you need to have one hour and a half at
18 1,200 degrees, that teeth never burn and that for
19 the bones of legs and arms, you have to crush them
20 because otherwise they are too big. So it is impossible
21 to have such a small box, such a small piece of bone.
22 So I do not state that Mr Andanson is not dead, but
23 I doubt it and I am not the only one to doubt.
24 Q. I am sure it is not possible to do justice to your book
25 in a sentence or two, but I am going to try to summarise
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1 it.
2 A. Okay, of course.
3 Q. Do understand that this is only an attempt at a summary.
4 The conclusion that you have come to is that
5 James Andanson carried out a plan to block the Mercedes
6 car in the tunnel so that photographs of the Princess of
7 Wales and Mr Dodi Al Fayed could be taken --
8 A. (French spoken)
9 Q. Let me finish -- and so that they could be asked
10 questions about their future plans --
11 A. (French spoken)
12 Q. If you could let me finish. The last part of what is
13 only a summary is you say that the plan to stop them in
14 the tunnel went wrong and they died by accident?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You say that your account of what you saw and heard in
17 the tunnel proves the conclusion that you have written
18 about in the book that you want to get published?
19 A. Absolutely.
20 Q. Is this right, that because of what you know, you fear
21 for your family's safety, you say; do I have that right?
22 A. Yes, sir. I will explain later.
23 Q. Is this right? You explained to Mr Smith that you were
24 anxious, if possible, to move to an English Caribbean
25 island?
97
1 A. Yes, sir, I would like to move to a Commonwealth island
2 because it would be easier for the children of my wife,
3 who are not French. But if I wanted to do so, now it is
4 going to be more difficult.
5 Q. Two last questions before we look at what you say
6 happened in the tunnel.
7 Have you received any payment or reward thus far for
8 your account of events that night?
9 A. No, sir.
10 Q. Has anybody agreed to make any payment or reward to you
11 in the future for your account of events that night?
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. In August of 1997, did you live in Paris with your wife?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Was her first name -- I hope I pronounce it right --
16 Fouzia?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Are you still married or not?
19 A. We were divorced in 2002.
20 Q. On Saturday 31st August of that year, had you been out,
21 the two of you, in the evening?
22 A. Absolutely, sir.
23 Q. Do you remember where you had been?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Where?
98
1 A. 800 metres from the place of the accident, from
2 the Alma Tunnel, after the Maison de Radio, the Radio
3 House. We were at a friend of my wife and we had an
4 oriental dinner with mint tea. We did not drink any
5 alcohol because both ladies were pregnant and I do not
6 drink any alcohol.
7 Q. After midnight, were you driving in your Toyota Corolla
8 car?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Was that a red car?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Just the two of you in it?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Were you on the expressway coming from the direction of
15 the Trocadero?
16 A. Yes, sir, on the left lane.
17 Q. Did there come a time when you reached the entrance to
18 the Alma Tunnel?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Ahead of you, but going in your direction, so towards
21 the centre of Paris, were there a number of cars, do you
22 say, and one vehicle with a blue flashing light?
23 A. Ahead of me there were a lot of cars. There were also
24 a lot of cars behind me and, on the right lane, there
25 was an ambulance with this blue light.
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1 Q. This is before, isn't it? You see the ambulance before
2 there has been an accident at all, a collision, a crash?
3 A. That is a good question.
4 Q. You saw the ambulance with the blue flashing light
5 before there had been a crash?
6 A. No, I do not exactly remember, you know. My attention
7 was focused on the car in front of me because, when you
8 are driving in a queue like that, then your attention is
9 obviously focusing on the car just in front of you.
10 Q. All right.
11 A. The ambulance was there already on the right lane, but
12 to tell you exactly whether it was before or after the
13 crash, I do not know. But anyway, the ambulance did not
14 stop.
15 Q. Now, as you went into the tunnel, did you see some
16 people?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. How many people were there?
19 A. There were in between 10 to 12 photographers. They were
20 hiding their cameras in their backs. They were in
21 the same lane as the Mercedes and they were just in
22 the entrance of the tunnel, walking in a file. They
23 were queueing, the one after the other.
24 Q. We are going to see where you say they were in a moment.
25 Just so we can understand how this fits in, you say, is
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1 this right, that they were photographers waiting for
2 the Mercedes to be blocked in the tunnel -- let me
3 finish, please -- you say that they had been alerted by
4 Mr Andanson and they were waiting for the chance to take
5 a picture?
6 A. That is not what I said it was. I think it is a poor
7 translation; that is what I have always said.
8 The queue of photographers, if you allow me, was
9 stopped under the tunnel. The photographers were there
10 before the crash. The deduction, which was made a few
11 days after the confrontation, is that the purpose was to
12 block the Mercedes under the tunnel.
13 Q. Right and they were there, you say, so that once that
14 had happened, they could go and take a photograph?
15 A. What I said to Mr Martin is that maybe, where there is
16 this misunderstanding in between the various
17 translations of words, in between French and English --
18 a "camera", which is not a camera in France -- I said
19 that there were ten photographers maybe with their
20 cameras and one video recorder.
21 Q. Right. I do not think there is much between us.
22 A. It was not only to take pictures, the photographers,
23 because they all know where the Princess and Mr Al Fayed
24 were going.
25 Q. Now --
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1 A. It was more what I today call a "media war". It was to
2 have the information, the scoop, before the TV channels
3 in order to have information on the future life of the
4 Princess of Wales and Mr Al Fayed.
5 Q. Right. Which they would get by talking to them when
6 they were blocked in the tunnel and taking pictures;
7 that is your theory?
8 A. Not to take a picture. They could have the pictures
9 when the Mercedes would have arrived at Mr Al Fayed's
10 apartment.
11 Q. All right.
12 A. Not only photographs, it was interviews --
13 Q. Anyway, ten of them have got their cameras with them?
14 A. I did assume it was not only photographs.
15 Q. All right. Let's see where you say these men were
16 before the crash. We are going to show you a picture of
17 the entrance of the tunnel, coming from the direction
18 that you were driving in; all right? If it is going to
19 take a long time, we will come back to it.
20 Now, can you just describe to us, first of all,
21 whereabouts the men were?
22 A. Just at the entrance of the tunnel, which means the exit
23 of the tunnel for the Mercedes. The pavement within
24 the tunnel is not broad. It is only 49 centimetres.
25 I measured it. There is an area where you can be safe
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1 in case you have any problem within the tunnel. If you
2 have the book, it is on the drawing. It is on three
3 pages.
4 Q. We will look at your drawing, and after we have had our
5 break, we will get the equipment ready. So they are
6 outside the tunnel, is that right, this line of ten or
7 twelve men, you say?
8 A. I did not count them, but roughly, yes.
9 Q. You drive on into the tunnel, is this right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And do you --
12 A. Normally we should have crossed with the Mercedes -- my
13 car and the Mercedes should have crossed -- but the
14 paparazzi decided otherwise.
15 Q. You drive into the tunnel on your side of the road and,
16 is this right, you hear the sound of a crash?
17 A. Yes, sir. I was at that time around the sixth pillar in
18 my way.
19 Q. The sound of the crash, is this right, has come from
20 the other side of the road?
21 A. Yes, sir. That is the tunnel, the noise is amplified.
22 I never heard such a noise. I told it in my deposition.
23 I thought it was a lorry carrying cars on two levels and
24 I thought that at the entrance of the tunnel it was too
25 high and then the cars at the second level were just
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1 dropped onto the road.
2 Q. So you hear the sound of a crash. What do you see of
3 the crash?
4 A. I heard three -- the sound I heard was in three
5 sequences. The first one, it was an average noise,
6 the second one, it was a very strong noise, and
7 the third one, it was once again an average noise.
8 I did not see the accident directly because I was in
9 the left lane and, due to the pillars, they were acting
10 as a wall. What I perfectly saw was this huge cloud of
11 white smoke due to the leak in the Mercedes' radiator
12 and the lining of the pillars, which made this whitish
13 smoke.
14 Q. What about in front of you, the traffic in front of you,
15 what did that do?
16 A. All the cars stopped on the left lane simply because
17 the bumper of the Mercedes was on our lane, crossing our
18 lane, as I explained on my drawing.
19 Q. Yes. Did you manage to avoid the bumper of the Mercedes
20 that was now in your lane?
21 A. The bumper was 1.80 metres or 2 metres wide, so
22 we avoided it by turning around.
23 Q. Was there anything else in the road in front of you?
24 A. Yes, sir. After the crash, all the cars stopped. I was
25 certainly the fourth or the fifth car just in front of
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1 the bumper. Then arrived a large motorcycle. It was
2 brand new. It was like a brand new moto. The driver
3 laid his motorbike on the road so the fourth, fifth and
4 sixth car, we all had to avoid both the bumper and
5 the large motorbike which was laying on the road.
6 It was lying on the road, the fuel tank on the road.
7 Q. In the direction that you are going, those lanes, there
8 is a bumper from the Mercedes and a motorbike that is
9 lying on its side?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Which direction had the motorbike come from? The same
12 direction as you?
13 A. When the other motorbike -- the motorbike was arriving
14 from behind us, but actually it was the motorbike which
15 was escorting the Mercedes since the
16 Place de la Concorde and it was preventing
17 the Mercedes -- the motorbike was there to force the
18 Mercedes to enter the tunnel and to prevent the Mercedes
19 not to enter the tunnel and using the other lanes on the
20 right.
21 Q. Mr Morel, I want you to understand that I am asking you
22 at the moment, please, about what you saw and heard
23 yourself of events in the tunnel. Do you understand?
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. I want to be absolutely clear. You had not yourself
105
1 seen a motorbike escorting the Mercedes to the tunnel,
2 had you?
3 A. No, sir.
4 Q. I just want to make sure I am following what you are
5 saying to us. All you had seen was a motorbike pass
6 you, coming in the same direction as you, and then
7 the bike had been put on the road, you say?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. There are just three events that I want to ask you about
10 at the scene because you will appreciate that we have
11 been hearing evidence for days about this incident.
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. The three incidents I want to ask you about are these.
14 First of all, I want to ask you about a dispute that you
15 say you witnessed between some men.
16 A. Yes, sir, a dispute in between the motorbike driver and
17 three other paparazzi.
18 Q. Pause a moment. I want to tell you what the three
19 incidents are so you know what I am interested in.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. So first of all I am going to be asking you about
22 a dispute between some men.
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Secondly I am going to be asking you about photographers
25 taking pictures of the car. Then I am going to be
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1 asking you about a man telling the line of photographers
2 you have spoken about to leave.
3 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Hilliard, I do not know when
4 it is a convenient moment --
5 MR HILLIARD: I have that very much in mind.
6 A. It was not said because it was sign language only.
7 MR HILLIARD: All right, a man signing to the line of
8 photographers to leave.
9 A. Okay.
10 MR HILLIARD: All right, Mr Morel? Those are the only three
11 things I am going to be asking you about.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. Just before we have our afternoon break, after you got
14 out of your car, can you tell us which of those three
15 incidents happened first?
16 THE INTERPRETER: I have first to repeat these three
17 incidents because it is quite confusing.
18 A. The first incident was the driver of the motorbike.
19 MR HILLIARD: All right. We will come back to that and,
20 when we start again, we will have found, I hope,
21 the technology so that you can show us where the line of
22 10 or 12 men was.
23 A. I could have shown you because I had it on my cellphone.
24 I have the pictures with me.
25 MR HILLIARD: All right. Thank you very much. We will have
107
1 our break now.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I think the technicians are
3 hopeful of being able to resolve the problem over
4 the break. So we will break for quarter of an hour,
5 members of the jury.
6 (3.13 pm)
7 (A short break)
8 (3.32 pm)
9 (Jury out)
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Just before the jury gets back,
11 I do not know if everybody has had a chance of going
12 carefully through the proposed list of witnesses
13 tomorrow, but if there are any of those witnesses who
14 really are not essential and whose evidence could be
15 read, it would be a considerable convenience not only to
16 the witness concerned, but also to the Paris end, to
17 know tonight so that the necessary arrangements can be
18 made.
19 MR BURNETT: Sir, at the moment, for tomorrow, we have five
20 French witnesses confirmed, although I should say that,
21 as far as we can judge, each of them should be really
22 quite short. They are all aftermath witnesses and
23 should not take very long.
24 There is a sixth witness, Clarence Williams, who is
25 due to give evidence via videolink from San Francisco at
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1 4 o'clock tomorrow afternoon. I have raised with my
2 learned friends the question of how long he might take
3 or whether he might in fact be read; something that we
4 will discuss further today.
5 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
6 MR BURNETT: So as far as the witnesses tomorrow are
7 concerned, we shall have to try our best to get them all
8 in, conscious as we are that it is inconvenient for them
9 to come back. But it does rather depend on whether both
10 this witness and his ex-wife are completed today or
11 whether they run into tomorrow.
12 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes. Thank you.
13 MR KEEN: I think, sir, it was advised by letter of
14 20th July that we did not see why Mr Pertuisot was
15 required at all. It may be that, unless someone has
16 a different view, we can dispense with his evidence
17 entirely.
18 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Well, that would be very helpful.
19 MR KEEN: We are certainly not clear on this side why he
20 continues to be on the calendar.
21 MR CROXFORD: For my part, sir, I had understood that we had
22 written and said that Mr Pertuisot was not, as far as
23 we could see, a relevant witness that we required.
24 I have just been checking the other witnesses. Part
25 of the problem is getting some sort of certainty as to
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1 who the other witnesses are, but I would certainly not
2 expect, for my part, that I would be very long with any
3 of the others.
4 I have discussed with one of my learned friends the
5 question of the West Coast witness, Mr Williams, but
6 I think we probably, on balance, would say that he ought
7 to be heard.
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Pertuisot's evidence, is it
9 required at all? Is it required to be read?
10 MR BURNETT: Sir, while Mr Hilliard continues with the
11 evidence of this witness, I will read it again. It may
12 be that it is unnecessary. It certainly covers ground
13 that has already been covered already and will be
14 covered by others.
15 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: What is important is that somehow
16 the French end are notified of this before we rise.
17 MR BURNETT: Indeed, sir. We will make sure that happens.
18 (Jury present)
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Members of the jury, the reason
20 that we have not sat promptly is that I was just raising
21 with counsel one matter about witnesses tomorrow, which
22 we do need to resolve, which I think we have resolved.
23 It did not concern you.
24 The other matter I would just like to mention is
25 that it has just come to my attention that you were
110
1 brought here as early as 8 o'clock this morning, which
2 seems wholly unnecessary and unfair on you. I am taking
3 steps to try to see that you are brought here at a more
4 realistic time for a 9.30 start. I am sorry about that.
5 I hope it will not happen again in future.
6 MR HILLIARD: All right, Mr Morel, can you hear us all
7 right?
8 THE INTERPRETER: Up until now, we could not hear you very
9 well at all.
10 MR HILLIARD: Now you can?
11 THE INTERPRETER: It seems to be the case.
12 MR HILLIARD: Mr Morel, we are going to start just by
13 looking at the plan that you drew, that you have
14 mentioned. All right?
15 A. The one that is in my book or the one that I drew by
16 hand?
17 Q. The one that you drew by hand. It is not the one that
18 is on the screen.
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Could I have one? (Handed)
20 MR HILLIARD: This is going to go in divider 5. It will
21 have a page number when we do the housekeeping.
22 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you.
23 MR HILLIARD: Now do you have a copy of the plan all right,
24 Mr Morel?
25 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I still do not have one.
111
1 MR HILLIARD: The second one has disappeared between me and
2 you. I do not know where they go.
3 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I would like a loose one with
4 a hole-punch. Thank you.
5 MR HILLIARD: Mr Morel, just so we understand the plan, at
6 the top of the plan, if you have it please -- really not
7 probably the way it is on the screen, but you have
8 a copy in front of you.
9 It is easiest to have it -- at the top is the
10 direction that you are coming from, and it says, does it
11 not, "J Morel"? If you have it at the top, there is
12 your vehicle coming down our plan. Do you see?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you have that?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You have drawn in, haven't you, some vehicles ahead of
17 your car?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If we look at the left of the plan, as it were, running
20 down the plan is the word "ambulance".
21 A. We cannot see on our copy.
22 Q. Can you not?
23 THE INTERPRETER: It is one or the other of the first two
24 vehicles in the right-hand lane.
25 Q. That is it. Then if you go over, if you have the plan
112
1 the way I am suggesting you have it -- not as it is on
2 the screen -- if you go over to top right, you will see
3 seven circles coming down the plan. Do you want to hold
4 it like I am holding it?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. If you do that, then you will understand what I am
7 saying better, I think. It is top right if you have it
8 that way --
9 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: Are you holding it differently
10 from the screen?
11 MR HILLIARD: Yes. I am holding it with Mr Morel coming
12 down the plan, not from left to right.
13 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: Fine. We have moved the plan
14 around.
15 MR HILLIARD: Do you now see, top right, there are seven
16 circles? Do you have that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And do you see that below that are the words "File
19 Indienne", Indian file?
20 A. Yes. It was the line of photographers that were hiding
21 their cameras behind their backs. One of them was
22 carrying a video camera.
23 Q. That is right. Those are the people you say you saw
24 outside the tunnel waiting before the crash.
25 A. No, they were under the tunnel, they were in the tunnel.
113
1 Q. Before we go on with your plan, we are now going to show
2 you a computer-generated representation of the tunnel
3 from the direction you were coming in. Can you see
4 that?
5 A. No, not yet. Now we can.
6 Q. If we can just go to the middle of the road, please, and
7 then come nearer towards the tunnel. Just pause
8 a minute. You were obviously in the right-hand lane as
9 you were going towards the tunnel, Mr Morel. Correct?
10 A. No, I was in the left-hand lane, like I said earlier.
11 Q. Sorry, I meant as between left and right, sort of going
12 towards and coming away. Of the two lanes on your side
13 of the road, you are in the left one, are you not?
14 A. Yes, okay.
15 Q. Now what I want to know is where the 10 or 12 men were.
16 A. You have to move forward -- stop. Backwards. A little
17 bit further backwards. Stop.
18 Q. What are you doing, poking at the -- we are not going to
19 see that, I do not think.
20 A. It does not look like the actual tunnel because there is
21 some kind of cage on the left-hand side where they were
22 hiding.
23 Q. They were hiding in a cage?
24 A. Not all of them. The light on the left-hand side,
25 between the third and fourth lights, that is where they
114
1 were.
2 Q. We may have to look at some photographs, Mr Morel, but
3 do you say they are in the sort of area that we are
4 looking at now or not?
5 A. Yes, yes, in the area of the third, fourth and fifth
6 lights.
7 Q. So if we look at those lights, what, on the left as
8 we look at it?
9 A. Yes. Yes, just there. Not on the road on this lane; on
10 the pavement.
11 Q. So by the third, fourth and fifth light, there is this
12 line of 10 or 12 men?
13 A. Yes. You realise that from here, from the point of view
14 of where we are looking at this picture, the pillars
15 will act as a wall and will prevent anybody from seeing
16 them.
17 Q. All right. That is fine. We can take that off the
18 screen for now, please.
19 If you can just have a look -- do you have our album
20 of photographs there, the larger of the two albums,
21 Mr Interpreter, "Photographs and plans"? Go to page 44
22 [INQ-JB1-0000044].
23 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
24 MR HILLIARD: Can you see the pillars running down the
25 middle and the lights on the left side and the right
115
1 side? You need to answer. Can you see those?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. If we look at the lights on the right-hand side of the
4 picture, if we went to the light at the end and came
5 back three, four or five lights, that is about where, is
6 it, beneath those lights where the ten or twelve men you
7 say were standing?
8 A. Yes, between the third and the sixth pillars.
9 Q. All right. If we go back to the plan you drew then, if
10 you have "ambulance" over to the left side of the plan,
11 if you then come over into the carriageway you were
12 driving in, can you see "pare-choc", it looks like,
13 written on the plan?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Is that the bumper that you were telling us about?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Just above that on the plan, if you are holding it the
18 way I suggested, you may just be able to work out
19 the letters "M-O-T-O". Can you see that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The one by the bumper, is that the one that you were
22 telling us about that was put down in the road?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. So we have seen the ambulance, the bumper,
25 the motorbike, and then we can see on this that you have
116
1 drawn in where you parked your car, have you not?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. If we look, bottom left, there are the words "JM" and
4 then "G-A-R-E"; is that right?
5 A. Yes. It means I parked.
6 Q. That is it. If we follow that, there is a line across
7 that, is there not, onto the plan and that shows where
8 you parked your car. Is that right?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. If we come to the bottom of the plan, you have shown
11 a vehicle that says in it "Diana" and "Dodi". That is
12 to show the direction of travel of their car?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Then if we go up the plan, over on the right, there is
15 a vehicle effectively by the wall with its, as it were,
16 headlights nearest the bottom of the plan. Is that to
17 show their car after it had crashed?
18 A. Yes, sir, absolutely.
19 Q. You got out of your car, is this right, and walked
20 towards their vehicle?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. At that time, were the doors of the car shut or not?
23 A. They were shut.
24 Q. Did you see anybody go towards the car, apart from you?
25 A. Four people.
117
1 Q. What were they doing?
2 A. Everybody was trying to open the doors of the vehicle.
3 Q. Did any of them manage to do that?
4 A. Yes, sir.
5 Q. The door at the front, the door at the back or both?
6 A. The rear right door first; the one on the side where
7 the Princess was sitting.
8 Q. What happened after that door had been opened?
9 A. Just like I explained, paparazzi rushed to try to get
10 into the car. The lady that had fallen between her feet
11 and one of the bodyguards, they lifted her up to have
12 her sit again on her seat. Immediately they were
13 fighting to try to take photographs. Then there were
14 two of them inside the car.
15 Q. Pause, please. Do you say that Princess Diana, because
16 she was the lady in the back -- do you say that they
17 actually put her -- I want to be clear what you are
18 saying -- you say, do you, that they actually put her
19 onto the back seat and you saw that happen?
20 A. Yes, that is what they did.
21 Q. Right. And left her then in that position, now actually
22 sitting on the back seat of the car?
23 A. Yes, and they took photographs.
24 Q. You were asked about this, is this right, on
25 3rd September when you made your first statement to
118
1 the police; yes?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And --
4 A. It was the same day as Scotland Yard came to Paris to
5 the Criminal Police Office.
6 Q. We can take this very shortly, I expect.
7 Translate, please.
8 We will be able to do the next part very quickly,
9 I expect.
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Do you agree with me that on the 3rd September statement
12 to the police, there is not anything about moving
13 Princess Diana onto the seat of the car?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Do you also agree with me that you have described two
16 people at the back of the car --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- and that you said about both of them -- this is what
19 your 3rd September statement says -- that you did not
20 know if they were taking photographs of the people in
21 the back? That is what the statement says.
22 A. In my statement this is what I say?
23 Q. Yes. In the statement it says about each of the men,
24 "I do not know if he was taking photos".
25 A. Do you have 30 seconds?
119
1 Q. Certainly. If you go to the second page, Mr Morel,
2 the second page of the -- let's make sure we have
3 the same one, 3rd September 1997. Do you see at the top
4 you describe two men coming to the car who had cameras?
5 (Pause)
6 THE INTERPRETER: I am going to translate what the witness
7 has read. That is:
8 "The other one ..." --
9 MR HILLIARD: No, no. If you go up to the top. I will read
10 it out in English and you see if I get it right and you
11 can follow in the French.
12 "I then saw two men come up to the car, both of whom
13 had cameras. One got into the back of the vehicle on
14 the right-hand side. He put his head and shoulders
15 inside and was holding his camera in his hand, but I do
16 not know if he was taking photos of the people in the
17 back or whether he was tending to them.
18 "The other one then came up. He, in turn, put his
19 head and shoulders into the car, above the shoulders of
20 the other man, whilst holding his camera in both hands
21 as if to take photographs. I do not know if he was
22 taking any pictures as I did not see any flashes, but
23 his actions suggested he was because he was positioning
24 his camera at different angles."
25 A. That is clear.
120
1 Q. You were shown a picture of seven suspects, do you
2 remember? That is a "yes" or a "no", if you can.
3 A. I am certain I have seen them all on television. The
4 one that I remember best was the one that has a ponytail
5 just like a woman because obviously, when a man has
6 a ponytail, you remember it.
7 I would like to come back to the matter of
8 the photographers. I could never say for sure that
9 those people were taking photographs. Even at
10 night-time, there are films that are so sensitive that
11 you can take photographs without flashes. I would say
12 that their behaviour made one think that they were
13 taking photographs. I tried to be as accurate as
14 possible.
15 Q. I am going to ask you about the photograph with seven
16 people in it. That is what I was asking you about.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. You did not recognise, did you, in that photograph, any
19 of the people or those two people you mentioned who were
20 at the back of the Mercedes? That is right, isn't it?
21 A. Are you going to show me the photograph now?
22 Q. Well if you want to see it ten years later, I will. You
23 have seen it once already.
24 A. Well, to be very clear, when I was in Scotland Yard,
25 the police officers did not have photographs yet. They
121
1 had just copies on paper, photocopies. But yes, I have
2 seen that as well.
3 Q. Mr Morel, in your statement in 1997, on the episode that
4 I am asking you about at the moment, not on any other
5 episode, you said that you were shown a photograph of
6 seven men and that you did not recognise either two of
7 the men you have just told us about at the back of the
8 Mercedes.
9 A. The two men inside the Mercedes? There were not two
10 men. I am getting confused. In the back of the
11 Mercedes there was Dodi Al Fayed and Diana.
12 Q. Mr Morel, you have just been telling us about two men at
13 the back of the Mercedes who had gone towards it from
14 outside.
15 A. They have to be able to get the best point of view
16 because the door of the Mercedes is not wide enough for
17 two men. They were struggling against each other.
18 I could not recognise any of them on this photograph
19 because I could see only their backs. But the criminal
20 police officers did not show me this photograph, they
21 showed me other photographs, because actually they were
22 trying to find a motorcycle rider.
23 Q. Mr Morel, the photographs that you were shown, you did
24 not recognise either of the two men you have just been
25 telling us about who were at the back of the Mercedes?
122
1 A. No, no, I could only see their backs.
2 Q. That is the first incident of the three that I want to
3 ask you about. That is dealt with now.
4 The second incident, I think your attention was
5 distracted by some people who were close to the pillars.
6 Is that right?
7 A. You are talking about those who were fighting?
8 Q. That is right.
9 A. What do you want to know?
10 Q. Whereabouts were the men who were fighting?
11 A. Right in front of the motorcycle.
12 Q. If you look at your drawing, if you look down the middle
13 of it, there are the pillars marked, aren't there?
14 A. Yes, and then actually they were fighting on the other
15 carriageway.
16 Q. Right.
17 A. The one that has been used by Diana's car.
18 Q. Now, do you see, in the middle, that your initials,
19 "JM", appear by the word "pare-choc" which you have told
20 us is a bumper? Do you see your initials, "JM"?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is that where you were standing roughly?
23 A. Yes, that is where I was, about -- I was more in between
24 the motorcycle and the bumper.
25 Q. Right.
123
1 A. That was within a scope of 10 metres.
2 Q. So that is roughly where you are standing. Then do you
3 see a point B has been marked? Do you see?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Then, above that, do you see the name "Rat"?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now go over to the right and you can see the car in
8 the position it was after the crash.
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Come down your drawing a little bit and there are
11 the letters "C" and "D", aren't there, by the wall?
12 A. Yes, "C" and "D" represent scooters, paparazzi, that got
13 there late.
14 Q. Did the people who had been on those scooters have
15 anything to do with the fight?
16 A. I do not know. There were four or five paparazzi that
17 started fighting. I do not know where they came from.
18 They came from all sides, just like flies. What I know
19 is that the young motorcyclist of North African origin
20 had a fight with the paparazzi who is called Rat.
21 Q. Pause there, please. The young motorcyclist, is he the
22 person who got off the motorbike that you have told us
23 about that was laid down on the road?
24 A. Sure, yes, yes. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Then you say that he and Mr Rat got involved in a fight;
124
1 is that right?
2 A. With two other paparazzi.
3 Q. Will you just listen very carefully to my question and
4 see if you agree with it or not? Was this quite out in
5 the open?
6 A. Yes, sir. I am not the only witness who has seen and
7 heard them fighting.
8 Q. So we agree?
9 A. Yes, yes, sir.
10 Q. You were also, is this right, able to hear what was said
11 between them?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. What was it that was said between them?
14 A. One of the paparazzi was blaming the others, and
15 I quote, "Holy shit, why did you do it this way?", and
16 the other said, "We could not do otherwise". And
17 the other one said, "Yes, but look", signing at the
18 Mercedes. The second one said again, "I am telling you
19 that we could not do otherwise". Then that is when they
20 started fighting physically.
21 Q. Right --
22 A. Mr Rat protected himself with his Canon camera. He was
23 using it as a propeller, just like a propeller of an
24 aircraft. Other people who were not paparazzi made sure
25 they got apart.
125
1 Q. Had you ever met any of them before?
2 A. Never.
3 Q. About how far away from them were you when they had
4 the conversation, roughly?
5 A. Less than 2 metres away. Actually I had to step back so
6 that I would not be hit by the Canon camera.
7 Q. Were they speaking loud enough for you to hear?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Would you have been clearly visible to them?
10 A. Yes, they did not care about us. They did not care
11 about people that were around them.
12 Q. Mr Morel, that is the second of the three incidents that
13 I want to ask you about.
14 A. Okay. Thank you.
15 Q. The last one is the ten or twelve men who were in
16 the tunnel that you have told us about.
17 A. You are talking about the line of photographers?
18 Q. Yes, the people that you have marked as the "Indian
19 file" on your drawing.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now when you had last seen them, they had been further
22 up the tunnel, is this right, by the wall?
23 A. Yes, the pavement is only 49 centimetres wide, so
24 obviously they had to be close to the wall.
25 Q. What I want to know is did you see that they had moved
126
1 away from the wall?
2 A. No, never.
3 Q. So they never moved from the wall all the time you saw
4 them?
5 A. Well, they tried to move towards the Mercedes, like --
6 you can presume they wanted to take photographs, but
7 I do not know. I did not ask them any questions.
8 Q. You were saying they tried to move towards the Mercedes?
9 A. The first two that were closest to the Mercedes tried to
10 get closer to it, the one that had a video camera and
11 the one that had just a camera.
12 Q. Will you just wait please? Do they start moving after
13 the fight has finished that you were telling us about?
14 A. No, sir -- is it okay?
15 Q. Yes please.
16 A. No, they actually started moving towards the Mercedes
17 long after the fight was over, when somebody that was
18 standing close to my car started making signs at them.
19 Q. Now you must listen, please, carefully because that is
20 just what I asked you. I did ask you, "Did they start
21 moving after the fight had finished?", and I think you
22 agree with me.
23 A. Well, what is your question exactly? Do you mean that
24 that is when they moved towards the Mercedes to try to
25 take photographs or when they left the place?
127
1 Q. What you have just said was that long after the fight
2 was finished, two of the men started to move down
3 towards the Mercedes.
4 A. No, actually the two that moved to the Mercedes, that
5 was right after the fight, because -- anyway, I did not
6 stay in the tunnel for long. I was there for six
7 minutes about, six minutes.
8 Q. After the fight, do you see a man come from a car that
9 is parked near yours?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Was the car that the man came from parked behind your
12 car? "Yes" or "no", if you can.
13 A. I do not know where he came from.
14 Q. Did you see a man who you say signaled to the Indian
15 file?
16 A. Yes, sir. He was right beside me.
17 Q. Where had he come from?
18 A. I do not know.
19 Q. Did he get into a car?
20 A. I did not pay attention.
21 Q. So you never saw where he went?
22 A. There is some confusion in relation to the statements to
23 the police. I explained to the police that the way --
24 what I said was transcribed in the record of the police
25 was not right concerning that particular man, but that
128
1 man did not have that much importance at the time, so
2 they said it did not matter.
3 Q. Mr Morel --
4 A. So at the time it did not matter, but today it does
5 matter very much --
6 Q. Mr Morel, I am going to have to interrupt you. Please,
7 at the minute I am not asking you about what you said to
8 the police. I am asking you for your version of events
9 today. Do you understand?
10 A. What I remember today is that the man who made gestures
11 and signals for the Indian file is the one whose car was
12 parked right behind mine and who left all of a sudden,
13 very quickly.
14 Q. Mr Morel, pause. That is just what I was asking you
15 about five minutes or so ago. Did the man, I said, who
16 signaled to the Indian file come from the car parked
17 behind you? Do you remember me asking you that and you
18 said you had no idea?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, just --
21 A. Sorry, but I was a bit confused because beside me there
22 were two men, one onto whose foot I have stepped and
23 the other one that was making signs. The one who was
24 signaling to the queue of photographers is the one who
25 left with the car that was parked behind mine, like
129
1 a mad man, driving at a very high speed.
2 Q. If you listen very carefully to me, I think you will
3 find there is usually probably nothing that you disagree
4 with because I have all your accounts here.
5 A. Yes, but I cannot understand you anyway so I have to
6 listen carefully to the interpreter.
7 Q. Of course. Now, the man who you say signaled to
8 the Indian file, you say he came from a dark car that
9 was --
10 A. Well, that is the one that he left with.
11 Q. Right. That was parked behind you?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. There was not anyone else in it?
14 A. I did not notice anyone.
15 Q. It was going in your direction?
16 A. Yes, yes. It is impossible to go in the other
17 direction.
18 Q. And that car, is this right, definitely was not a white
19 Fiat Uno? That car, Mr Morel?
20 A. No, absolutely not.
21 Q. Pause a minute. You say, is this right, that that man
22 was James Andanson?
23 A. Well, I said I presumed it was him, that it was
24 James Andanson, because I did not know him at the time,
25 but I have seen things in secret and confidential
130
1 documents later on.
2 Q. Now, do you have the secret and confidential documents
3 with you at the moment?
4 A. No, sir, because the documents have got a very heavy
5 weight in France. They were xeroxed in one of several
6 offices, so they are held illegally and they do not
7 belong to me, but I could get them whenever I want.
8 Q. And have you ever seen secret and confidential documents
9 like these before or not?
10 A. Before what?
11 Q. Before you saw these ones?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. You have?
14 A. I saw documents like those when I worked for the Army.
15 I was sworn, and I worked for the (link broken)
16 department of the Marines.
17 Q. How long ago was that?
18 A. I knew what they could look like.
19 Q. How long ago was that?
20 A. That was in 1965.
21 Q. 19 ...?
22 A. 1965.
23 Q. What, the documents 30 or so years later were just
24 the same?
25 A. No, they were not at all the same. The ones I was
131
1 dealing with at the time were military documents.
2 Q. How did you know these ones were genuine? That is all
3 I want to know.
4 A. There are things that you cannot make up. There are
5 things that I had a feeling of, but I did not have
6 evidence, I did not have proofs, but when I saw these
7 documents, I had the proofs; documents in hand that had
8 been rendered by hand to Mr Coroner Burgess, translated
9 into French.
10 You can imagine that the English lawyers of
11 Mr Al Fayed had written on them, and they hand over
12 a document which is marked "confidential", "secret" to
13 the Coroner. You can imagine that the document would be
14 written in English. Actually this document is
15 translated into French and I have a copy of it in
16 English.
17 Q. Right.
18 A. I think in this file there are names, fax and phone
19 numbers that exist, and magistrates' concerns over
20 holding their positions still at the time.
21 Q. Thank you very much. This is right, is it not, that you
22 have actually seen photographs of Mr Andanson since that
23 night, but you are not able to say if it was him or not
24 from the photographs? That is correct, is it not?
25 A. I saw for the first time photographs of Mr Andanson in
132
1 the press, in Paris Match magazine, some months ago. He
2 did not match the person who was signaling for the
3 attention of the Indian file at all. He does not look
4 like that at all.
5 Q. That is right, is it not? He did not look anything like
6 the man who made the signal?
7 A. No, not at all.
8 Q. Right. I just want to understand. As far as that man
9 was concerned, again, this is the position, is it, that
10 that man was not hiding himself and he was out in
11 the open?
12 A. No, no, on the contrary. He was trying to be very
13 discreet. He was making signs as discreetly as
14 possible. Can you see me?
15 Q. Yes we can see you.
16 A. That is the kind of sign he was making (indicating).
17 Q. You understood that that man, whoever he was, was
18 indicating to the photographers to move away. That is
19 what you saw; is that right?
20 A. Yes, it is sign language. Everybody can understand it.
21 He was, you know, looking at the file of photographers
22 and making the sign as a statement, "Stop here".
23 Q. Then, in due course, is this right, the police arrived?
24 A. The police did not get there right away.
25 Q. That is why I said "in due course".
133
1 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
2 A. The first police car, the black and white police car,
3 got there about five minutes after the crash.
4 Q. Just so you understand, Mr Morel, it is simply that
5 we have heard lots of evidence already about the police
6 arriving, so we don't need to go into all the detail
7 with you. Don't misunderstand me.
8 A. Okay, no problem for me.
9 Q. One other bit from the scene. There was one other man
10 you were telling us about whose foot you stood on or he
11 stood on your foot, is that right, and he was wearing
12 pointy western boots?
13 A. Yes, sir, he was wearing western kind of shoes.
14 Q. Off you went home with Mrs Fouzia Morel, your wife. In
15 due course, did you go home with her?
16 A. So you don't want to talk about the man whose foot
17 I stepped on?
18 Q. Not really.
19 A. It is very important.
20 Q. Go on then.
21 A. (French spoken)
22 Q. Just a minute. I am going to ask you about that
23 conversation. If we can stick to my order. We cannot
24 both have an order. I am going to ask you about
25 speaking to Mr Al Fayed the next morning.
134
1 A. I heard that tomorrow afternoon that we were supposed to
2 resume.
3 Q. No, no. Listen. Will you bear with me for a minute and
4 listen to me?
5 In due course, you go home with your wife that
6 night; you went home?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You learned the next morning about who had been involved
9 in the accident?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You telephoned the Ritz Hotel?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. And, in due course, you say that Mr Al Fayed telephoned
14 you back?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. He spoke to you, you say, and your wife?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Is this right, in the course of that conversation, you
19 say that you mentioned the man who trod on your toe
20 wearing western-style boots? That is what you say.
21 A. Ah okay. Yes, sir. This is what I wanted to get to.
22 Q. Yes. This is what you say. Having mentioned a man
23 treading on your toe with western-style boots, your
24 account, I think, is this, that Mr Al Fayed said,
25 "The bastards, I knew they were there".
135
1 I want you to listen to all of this before you
2 answer. This, I think, is your account. You mention
3 the boots and he says, "The bastards, I knew they were
4 there". You said, "Who, who?", and your account is that
5 Mr Al Fayed then said, "I was sure, I was sure. They
6 are the bastards that did it, the Secret Service".
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Now, that is your account. I have just two questions
9 for you about it. Mr Al Fayed, I think you say, was
10 very upset in this conversation, if it happened, for
11 obvious reasons. Here is the first question. Why, in
12 a conversation --
13 A. (French spoken)
14 Q. No, no. We will have the question first.
15 Why, in a conversation like this -- can you just
16 help us -- did you mention somebody treading on your toe
17 wearing western-style boots?
18 A. Well, actually he did not step on my foot. I stepped on
19 his.
20 Q. Right. Why did you mention that?
21 A. I explained everything in detail. We stayed on
22 the phone for half an hour. I told Mr Al Fayed
23 everything that happened, minute by minute, second by
24 second.
25 Q. Thank you.
136
1 A. Today I am sorry to have called Mr Al Fayed about this
2 man on whose foot I stepped because I may have directed
3 Mr Al Fayed in the wrong direction.
4 Q. The second question: did you know why it was that you
5 mentioning treading on the man's toes wearing
6 the western boots -- did you know why it was that that
7 prompted him to say that the Secret Service had been
8 involved?
9 A. Yes, sir, because he asked me how that guy was on whose
10 foot I stepped, so I described him. His hair was cut
11 really short; about 30; solid build; 1 metre 85/1 metre
12 90; wearing a short-sleeved Scottish-type shirt;
13 moustache, a bit like a beer drinker in Ireland or like
14 Dali, but shorter. Immediately after I described to
15 Mr Al Fayed this man on whose foot I stepped, he said,
16 "Oh, bastards, they were there".
17 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Hilliard --
18 A. "I was sure that they were there".
19 MR HILLIARD: We have to pause.
20 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I have just been handed a note
21 saying that one of the jury needed to leave by half past
22 four. I am very sorry, members of the jury. I did not
23 know about this until just a moment or two ago and this
24 is the first chance that I have had to intervene.
25 I do not know how long it would be to finish this
137
1 witness. I do not know whether the problem that you did
2 have has now been overtaken by events or if it is still
3 essential for us to finish at this moment.
4 THE FOREMAN: It was a family commitment that a member of
5 the jury had to get back for.
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: There is a family commitment that
7 a members of the jury has to get back for, so we are
8 going to have to break off for now. Quite apart from
9 that, there is a message from the shorthand writer
10 saying that she would need a break.
11 Members of the jury, can I say that we have finished
12 as far as you are concerned now, so please leave while
13 I try and resolve what we are going to do about
14 the remains of this witness's evidence. It will be half
15 past nine, I think, tomorrow morning.
16 Members of the jury, if in future there is a problem
17 that is forthcoming, could you do your best to let me
18 know in advance and I can deal with it before it becomes
19 a problem?
20 MR HILLIARD: There is something I want to just see if he
21 can bring for us tomorrow. I am happy to ask him when
22 the jury are not there. I can repeat it when they are
23 back.
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: The jury can leave now. Thank
25 you.
138
1 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: Mr Morel has just left the room
2 for a minute. He will be back shortly.
3 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We have difficulties at this end
4 because one of the jurors --
5 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: Mr Morel has now returned.
6 (Jury out)
7 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Miss Gaffney, can I just pass on
8 this information to you? Can you hear me?
9 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: I can, sir.
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We have a problem this end
11 because one of the jurors has a family commitment that
12 should have meant her finishing here at the latest at
13 half past four. I have only just discovered about this,
14 so we are not going to be able to continue with Mr Morel
15 this evening, but I am hopeful that we could resume with
16 him first thing tomorrow morning. Would that be an
17 arrangement that we can make?
18 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: I will check. Sir, may we make
19 a suggestion? We have three witnesses in the morning
20 and it may be better if Mr Morel could be heard in
21 the afternoon.
22 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: From our point of view, I think
23 the jury would much prefer to hear Mr Morel's evidence
24 at one go, without other witnesses being interposed.
25 I do not know how much longer Mr Morel is likely to be
139
1 required.
2 MR HILLIARD: As far as I am concerned, I have two very
3 short topics to deal with and then I am finished.
4 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: We did not hear what Mr Hilliard
5 said, sir, but what has been suggested this end is that
6 we start with Mr Morel first thing and then the other
7 three witnesses are heard at the end of his testimony.
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: That would be what we would hope
9 to do. I am just trying it find out how much longer we
10 are going to need Mr Morel for.
11 Mr Mansfield?
12 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, it will not surprise you, I think about
13 a minute.
14 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: A minute? Thank you. Mr Keen?
15 MR KEEN: I suspect rather less than that, sir.
16 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you. Mr Croxford, are you
17 going to spoil it?
18 MR CROXFORD: I am not going to ask him anything.
19 MR HORWELL: About half an hour, 40 minutes at the most.
20 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We think we are unlikely to
21 require Mr Morel for any more than half an hour in
22 the morning.
23 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: We are just checking what time
24 he can get here.
25 10.20, sir, our time.
140
1 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: What about Mrs Fouzia Morel? Is
2 she there today?
3 A. My ex-wife will not be able to come for the following
4 reasons: we received death threats and were the subject
5 of (link broken). I have been living abroad for six
6 years. We got divorced. She lives hidden with our
7 child under another name, her maiden name.
8 French justice at the time did not want to protect
9 us. She would rather be forgotten.
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Is she there with you today?
11 A. No.
12 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: She is not going to be there
13 tomorrow, is that the position? We would like her to
14 give evidence and we would like the magistrate's help to
15 bring her to court.
16 A. She cannot be forced and too many things have happened.
17 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I do not think we are going to be
18 able to resolve this this afternoon and certainly not
19 over the videolink.
20 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: No.
21 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: The fact is that she is not going
22 to be there tomorrow, so we can take that out of the
23 equation for organisational purposes, but, Mr Hilliard,
24 I think you had one matter you wanted to raise.
25 MR HILLIARD: Yes. Mr Morel, just one last thing before
141
1 we break off.
2 I do not want you to answer tonight. I am just
3 going to ask you a question. I am going to ask you,
4 please, if there is anything you can do this evening,
5 for when you come back tomorrow morning, to have
6 the secret dossier with you. I am just making the
7 request now. I do not want you to answer now.
8 A. I do not have it. It is not in France.
9 MR HILLIARD: All right. We will come back to that
10 tomorrow.
11 A. It is not possible to have this.
12 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you, Mr Morel. We will see
13 you tomorrow at half past ten your time, half past nine
14 our time.
15 (5.00 pm)
16 (The hearing was adjourned until 9.30 am on Thursday,
17 25th October 2007)
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
142
1
2 INDEX
3
4 MR OLIVIER PARTOUCHE (sworn) ..................... 1
5
6 Questions from MR HOUGH .................. 1
7
8 Questions from MR KEEN .................... 20
9
10 Questions from MR CROXFORD ................ 30
11
12 Questions from MR HORWELL ................. 33
13
14 Further questions from MR HOUGH ........... 37
15
16 MR BENOIT BOURA (affirmed) ....................... 41
17
18 Questions from MR HOUGH ................... 41
19
20 Questions from MR CROXFORD ................ 56
21
22 MS GAELLE L'HOSTIS (affirmed) .................... 68
23
24 Questions from MR HOUGH ................... 69
25
143
1 Questions from MR CROXFORD ................ 82
2
3 Questions from MR HORWELL ................. 85
4
5 MR JACQUES MOREL (sworn) ......................... 87
6
7 Questions from MR HILLIARD ................ 87
8
9
10
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