Hearing transcripts

23 January 2008 - Afternoon session

23 (2.00 pm)
24 (Jury present)
25 MR BURNETT: Mr Rees, you will be pleased to know that we

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1 are nearly there, at least so far as I am concerned, for
2 the moment.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. We left the DVD before lunch at a point where you had
5 had a short discussion of just a moment or two short of
6 half a minute with Dodi, or that appears to be the
7 position.
8 Could we pick it up next at 00.04.42 and play it
9 through, Mr Foley, if you would be so kind, to 00.07.05
10 approximately.
11 What we are going to look at is the Princess and
12 Dodi coming out of the suite and just then going off
13 before you walk down to the back of the hotel.
14 (CCTV footage shown)
15 So we can see there that you have gone downstairs
16 and met Henri Paul, and you go back up together.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I think we can stop it there. Again, a question -- I am
19 sure your answer will be the same as before -- are you
20 able to remember the nature or substance of the
21 conversation you had with Dodi and the Princess when
22 they came out of the Imperial Suite --
23 A. No, I can't, sir. I don't remember.
24 Q. -- and as you were walking to the back of the hotel.
25 All right. Once again the jury have seen all the

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1 footage of the walk to the back of the hotel, down in
2 the lift, and the whole of the wait at the back of the
3 hotel before the car arrived. I don't propose to show
4 you all of that.
5 What I would like to do is pick up one small moment
6 whilst everyone was waiting. This is adjusted time
7 00.11.25; the service door camera.
8 (CCTV footage shown)
9 You will see in a moment or two that you are given
10 the phone by Henri Paul. Do you see that?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Now, I think in your statement you say that you think it
13 likely that you were speaking to Kes Wingfield at that
14 stage.
15 A. Yes, I believe that.
16 Q. Why is it that you think that is the case?
17 A. Because I believe that's an internal telephone system
18 within the Ritz, so I would have been speaking to Kes
19 who is at the front of the hotel.
20 Q. Then can we pick it up at 00.16.38 and simply play it
21 through until the Mercedes leaves? We will see, I hope,
22 vehicles that follow. If we don't see that, we can deal
23 with it differently.
24 (CCTV footage shown)
25 We can fast-forward through the shots from the

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1 front, please. Pausing there, I expect you saw a man on
2 a scooter following the Mercedes and you also saw
3 a vehicle following the Mercedes.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. We have had evidence about that, and the vehicle
6 following the Mercedes was a Pajero which belonged to
7 a photographer called Odekerken.
8 Just a few general questions about the scene we have
9 just viewed with you. Do you have any recollection of
10 anything that was said by Henri Paul in the minute or
11 two leading up to his getting into the car and driving
12 it?
13 A. No, sir, I don't.
14 Q. So you can't help us with whether he said anything to
15 any of the photographers who were nearby or to the car
16 jockey who brought the car or anything of that sort; you
17 simply can't remember?
18 A. If he had spoken to the photographers, it would have
19 been out on the street --
20 Q. You wouldn't have heard.
21 A. -- and I stayed inside.
22 Q. So you can't help us with that.
23 After the scene that we have just witnessed, so the
24 car driving away from the back of the Ritz, I showed you
25 in the statement you made to the judge in Paris in

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1 March 1998 the two fleeting memories that you have had
2 after that.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You have explained your own caution about those. Is it
5 the case that you have no memory of what happened after
6 the pictures we have just seen until really some time
7 after you woke up in hospital?
8 A. Yes, sir. I have no memory after leaving the back of
9 the Ritz in a vehicle until waking up in hospital
10 sometime later.
11 Q. I have just got a handful of other discrete points to
12 ask you about. Was there a time after the crash, after
13 you had been released from hospital in Paris, that you
14 were staying at 60 Park Lane, which is
15 Mr Mohamed Al Fayed's property?
16 A. Yes, sir. When I came back and started -- I believe
17 I came down one time to visit the security team down
18 there and I stayed at an apartment within 60 Park Lane,
19 and also when I came back to start work on
20 a light-duties basis, I was accommodated in an apartment
21 within 60 Park Lane.
22 Q. Do you remember a member of the domestic staff there
23 called Karen Mackenzie?
24 A. Yes, sir, I do.
25 Q. Miss Mackenzie has given an indication of a memory she

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1 has of something you said to her. Let me see if I can
2 put it in context for you. This is a memory she locates
3 to shortly before you left 55 Park Lane, which is
4 I think where you were staying.
5 A. No, I was staying in 60 Park Lane, sir.
6 Q. You were in 60. She thinks it's 55. Do you remember
7 when you left 60, roughly?
8 A. Well, 60 Park Lane is private apartments where the
9 security operations room is based and where the family
10 members live, and 55 Park Lane is a more public area,
11 and I don't understand what she implied there.
12 Q. Do you have a memory at all of a conversation with her
13 near a lift on the seventh floor shortly before you left
14 Park Lane?
15 A. I don't remember a specific conversation with her, no.
16 Q. She remembers something -- it's something she
17 recollected six years later and she can't put any
18 context on it, so I am not able to help you with that --
19 but what she might say, if she comes to give evidence,
20 is this:
21 "We passed the time of day for a few moments before
22 the lift arrived. As we parted and Trevor got into the
23 lift, he said to me, 'If I remember, they will kill
24 me'."
25 Did you say anything of that sort to this lady?

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1 A. I don't remember saying that and I don't remember having
2 that conversation with her at all.
3 Q. Is it something that you could conceivably have said?
4 A. I doubt it very much.
5 Q. Obviously there is something odd about the statement
6 because if you can't remember, you don't know what it is
7 you are going to remember, but you have no --
8 A. I have no recollection of it.
9 Q. -- recollection of that at all.
10 Was there a time after the events that we have been
11 talking about when you were working for a sports shop in
12 Oswestry, close to where you come from?
13 A. Yes, sir. That was whilst I was recovering from the
14 accident.
15 Q. Did you receive some anonymous letters and telephone
16 calls?
17 A. Yes, sir, I did, yes.
18 Q. Can you tell us how many of each, roughly, and over what
19 period?
20 A. I can't remember over what period of time it was, but
21 there was probably two or three letters and a number of
22 telephone calls on one day.
23 Q. On one day?
24 A. On one day only, yes.
25 Q. Were there telephone calls to the shop?

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1 A. To the shop, sir, yes.
2 Q. And the letters to the shop as well?
3 A. I believe they were either to myself or through the
4 solicitors' office.
5 Q. I see. What was the nature of the anonymous
6 communication or communications that you were getting?
7 A. I don't remember the specifics of the letters. They
8 were generally slightly threatening in nature. I didn't
9 take them seriously and I believe I just threw them
10 away. The telephone calls were stating that they know
11 who I am, they know where I work, where I live and to
12 keep quiet. That was the sort of general nature of the
13 telephone call.
14 Q. No indication of who it was who was talking to you?
15 A. They said "You know who we are".
16 Q. Did you?
17 A. No, I didn't.
18 Q. But at all events you didn't take it seriously?
19 A. No, I told them to -- if they knew where I was, to come
20 to the shop and see me.
21 Q. And did they?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Last point: you told us that the phone you were using in
24 Paris was a work phone.
25 A. Correct, yes.

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1 Q. Would that mean that the billing was not personal to
2 you, but went to 60 Park Lane or to the organisation?
3 A. Yes, I believe the bills went to 60 Park -- through the
4 Harrods organisation. We had to mark off any private
5 telephone calls that we made and then it was returned to
6 the office.
7 Q. Have you any idea what's happened to the phone bills,
8 the phone records?
9 A. No, sir, I don't, no.
10 Q. But if they exist, that's where they will be?
11 A. I believe so.
12 MR BURNETT: Thank you very much, Mr Rees.
13 A. Thank you.
14 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield?
15 Questions from MR MANSFIELD
16 MR MANSFIELD: I wonder if it's possible to ascertain, have
17 the timelines -- they have. Would it be possible for
18 the timeline that relates to the CCTV that has been
19 shown to be distributed both to yourself --
20 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes, certainly. I have one,
21 I think.
22 MR MANSFIELD: May I check the jury have one as well? Yes.
23 Does the witness have one?
24 A. Yes.
25 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We are all ahead of you.

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1 MR MANSFIELD: Excellent. It may be useful -- I am not
2 suggesting it has to be done this way -- but I will want
3 to, at various stages, correlate with the -- can I call
4 it the "master timeline summary", which the jury should
5 have behind divider 3, that has other events on it.
6 I will be concentrating on the period after the
7 arrival back at the Ritz Hotel, which in the main --
8 sorry, do you have that?
9 A. I have this (indicates).
10 Q. You only have the body of that. I wonder if the witness
11 could very kindly have the major summary as well. So
12 the bottom of page 4 of the master summary is where the
13 car arrives back. (Pause) Could we have a jury bundle
14 for the witness box, please? (Pause)
15 MR BURNETT: We have a spare. (Handed)
16 MR MANSFIELD: This is rather easier. (Handed) This is the
17 summary because the one you have there is just, as it
18 says, "Movements of the bodyguards".
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. It concentrates on the Imperial Suite and we have seen
21 other scenes. This one, which you may not have seen
22 before, has many other events as well.
23 At the bottom of page 4, this is the arrival back
24 at the Ritz; do you follow?
25 A. Yes, sir, I do.

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1 Q. In the evening?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. 10 pm roughly speaking. I am not going to -- so it will
4 be the pages thereafter as well as the movements. I am
5 sorry, I should have introduced myself. I am
6 Michael Mansfield. I represent Mohamed Al Fayed.
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. I do have a number of questions, and I in particular
9 apologise to you to ask you to reflect on a terrible day
10 for you. It's difficult enough for witnesses to
11 remember 10 years ago without such terrible events, but
12 in your case it's obviously difficult.
13 Will you say if you find the whole thing too
14 burdensome or you don't understand the question or so
15 on --
16 A. I will, sir.
17 Q. -- and I will stop immediately. Do you follow?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. Also I want you to understand that I am not trying to in
20 any way trap you by what you may or may not have said on
21 different occasions. Do you follow? I just really want
22 to see what memories there are and what can be triggered
23 by various things that you have seen and so on. Do you
24 follow?
25 A. I do, sir.

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1 Q. It's quite clear in your case that -- and I want to ask
2 you really as I stand here now: do you have memory --
3 I will not touch the tunnel, all right; no questions
4 about the back of the Ritz through to the tunnel.
5 I will not ask you any questions about that.
6 The questions I am going to ask you mainly concern
7 the events of the evening before you left the back of
8 the Ritz. Do you follow?
9 A. I do.
10 Q. Now, in that period, as you sit here now, do you have
11 memories of that period or are you really reliant on
12 what you have read since or what you believe you said in
13 the first place? What's the position?
14 A. I have a general memory of what went on now, but sitting
15 here today, specific memories I have to refer to
16 statements that have been made previously.
17 Q. Right. I want to just again so the jury may follow --
18 we have had a partial picture -- it's not a complaint --
19 of the position. I want to suggest that today, for the
20 first time, to the authorities, you have said something
21 that affects Dodi Al Fayed for the first time; something
22 that you haven't said before to the authorities. Do you
23 follow?
24 A. Well, carry on.
25 Q. Do you recognise what it is --

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1 A. No.
2 Q. -- that's different, quite different to how you put it
3 over the years?
4 A. I don't, sir, no. Please tell me.
5 Q. I will come to it. I will take it in stages. The first
6 thing that it is important to establish, so that the
7 jury and you have clearly in mind, is the occasions on
8 which you have spoken to the authorities and at some
9 length.
10 Can I just run through the dates? It doesn't matter
11 if you don't remember the dates, but the occasions. It
12 starts with the authorities in France and the
13 investigating juge. Do you remember?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. You have had some dates put to you today. On
16 19th September 1997, you spoke to the juge. You spoke
17 again on 2nd October.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Again on 19th December 1997.
20 A. I believe so, yes.
21 Q. So there are three occasions then. Again, after
22 The Mirror interview in March 1998. I am less concerned
23 with that for the moment. So three major occasions when
24 you are dealing with your recollections of the night --
25 do you follow -- with the juge.

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. One appreciates the difficulty even then that you would
3 have had. But then there comes another important
4 period, and the jury have heard it referred to as the
5 "Paget Investigation", namely when the
6 Metropolitan Police see you in 2004.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now that's over a number of days and many hours, isn't
9 it?
10 A. I believe it was two to three days.
11 Q. Yes. I am just going to put the dates so that there is
12 again precision about it. On 27th September 2004, it
13 was in the afternoon, about 1.30, you spent four
14 hours -- I don't know whether it was taped. We have
15 transcripts of an interview with you. Do you remember
16 that? I am not asking you to remember the detail, just
17 the occasion.
18 A. With the Metropolitan Police?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Yes, I do.
21 Q. So four hours on that particular occasion,
22 27th September. Then, on 20th December 2004, just
23 before you come to make a statement, you spend another
24 two and a half hours in interview with the police.
25 That's in the morning of that day; all right?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Then, as you rightly remember, there was a third day.
3 The third day was 21st December when you made a very
4 lengthy statement. I do not have the timing for that,
5 but it is 27 pages long. Do you remember that?
6 A. I believe the statement was written, was --
7 Q. A compilation.
8 A. -- a compilation of the interviews, yes, sir.
9 Q. That's why I can't give you an exact time of how long it
10 took, but anyway, that was the third occasion.
11 Now just dealing with the Metropolitan Police
12 interviews, when did you last have a chance of having
13 a look at those or have you never seen them?
14 A. The statement, sir?
15 Q. The interviews.
16 A. The interviews. I have never seen the interviews, just
17 the statement.
18 Q. Now, I am going to come straight to what I am going to
19 suggest to you is a key point, the one I was starting
20 with. The theme of the statements to the French police,
21 the interviews with the Metropolitan Police, all the way
22 through to the 27-page statement which was a compilation
23 of the things that you had said, you had always said
24 that the person who told you about the change of plan
25 was Dodi.

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1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. All right. Now do you recognise today, for the first
3 time, how you have changed that?
4 A. I believe I do, yes.
5 Q. Yes. Well, just so that we are on the same wavelength,
6 what is it that you now recognise is different for the
7 first time?
8 A. That it is -- looking at the CCTV footage, it's highly
9 likely that Henri Paul was the person who informed me of
10 the change of plan.
11 Q. Yes. Now I want to examine how you have come to that
12 belief, and I want to say to you straightaway that that
13 was going to be the suggestion that I was going to make
14 to you, in much the same way that my learned friend has
15 taken you through it. But there are some other details
16 I want to come to.
17 It's perfectly obvious that, in France, the French
18 police didn't have or at least they didn't use the CCTV
19 that we have seen today. So you didn't see it in
20 France?
21 A. No, I didn't, sir, no.
22 Q. When you were seen by the Metropolitan Police in 2004,
23 both in September and December, would it be right to say
24 that they did not take you through the CCTV in the way
25 you have been taken through today?

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1 A. Not to my memory, sir, no.
2 Q. Not to your memory. Before you came into the witness
3 box, so that's after 2004 and before today, had you had
4 a chance to see the very frames we have been through
5 today?
6 A. I believe I have seen some of them which are public --
7 Q. The ones that have been in the public domain?
8 A. Aside from that, I haven't, no.
9 Q. So you haven't had the sort of sequential exposition
10 that Mr Burnett has just taken through?
11 A. No, I haven't, sir.
12 Q. Before you came in the witness box, did you get any
13 indication that there was a CCTV film, clips from it,
14 and what it depicted?
15 A. I have been told that there was a series of -- sequences
16 of CCTV film from the Ritz Hotel, yes.
17 Q. Were you told what it showed?
18 A. No, I wasn't, sir, no.
19 Q. The reason why I ask you this is that when you first
20 came into the witness box today and you were asked this
21 question about who told you about the plan and so
22 forth -- do you follow?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. -- what you said today was -- and I suggest for the
25 first time -- that you had not got any clear

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1 recollection and it was either Dodi or Henri Paul.
2 That's what you said today. Do you follow?
3 A. I do, sir.
4 Q. What caused you to say that today?
5 A. Was that answer prior to seeing the CCTV or --
6 Q. Yes, it was.
7 A. Right. I had a chance to look through the timeline
8 summary --
9 Q. When did you say that?
10 A. Last night.
11 Q. Last night. Who provided you with the timeline last
12 night?
13 A. The Solicitor to the Inquest.
14 Q. I am not suggesting there is anything improper. So you
15 are just provided with it so that you can look through
16 it?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. And you noticed straightaway, did you, that this
19 timeline doesn't exactly support the recollection that
20 you have had over many years; correct?
21 A. I looked through the timeline and surmised that that was
22 probably the sequence of events that occurred.
23 Q. Yes, it's a bit more than the sequence. That's why
24 I have asked you very carefully. If you don't have
25 a recollection, we would all understand and I will sit

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1 down, but if now you are claiming something different,
2 I want to examine how we have got to this position
3 because I suggest your present recollection is the
4 correct one, that it was in fact Henri Paul, and the
5 sequence on the timeline makes it abundantly clear, if
6 for no other reason that the walk to the back of the
7 hotel can only have happened after you have been told
8 this; correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Dodi hasn't actually spoken to you before you go to the
11 back of the hotel, has he?
12 A. That's what would appear from the CCTV.
13 Q. That's what would appear. There are two aspects to
14 this. One is the detail of the conversation up until
15 today that you have professed to say came from Dodi,
16 which now in fact may be Henri Paul, and also there is
17 a preamble to all of this, and I will put to you now
18 what the preamble is in all of your statements.
19 So that you can see, could we have on screen -- do
20 you have your statement there?
21 A. I do, sir.
22 Q. That's the Paget statement in December, the 21st. It's
23 the long one on page 21. Could I have on the screen,
24 please, so the jury can follow because they don't have
25 this statement, [INQ0005893 - Read out in court]. You can follow from your

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1 copy. Could we have highlighted, please, "Whilst we
2 were waiting ..."? It's the third paragraph.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I am going to go slowly so you can follow.
5 December 2004, this statement:
6 "Whilst we [that's you and Kes] were waiting outside
7 the suite, Henri Paul had been into the suite to see
8 Dodi on a number of occasions. I don't know the content
9 of their conversations. I think he was the only one to
10 go in apart from possibly restaurant staff. I don't
11 remember any other members of the management team coming
12 to speak to Dodi."
13 Now that was the theme in the interviews as well,
14 wasn't it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In other words, Henri Paul going to see Dodi. I suggest
17 that the picture you were painting was that they were
18 sorting out a plan and then it is announced by Dodi. Do
19 you follow?
20 A. I don't think I was painting a picture, sir. I was
21 saying what I recollected at that time.
22 Q. I want to ask you straightaway -- and I am sorry to say
23 we will have to go through some of this again -- when
24 you watch the CCTV today and you look at the timeline,
25 that observation there about "Henri Paul had been into

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1 the suite to see Dodi on a number of occasions" just
2 isn't right, is it?
3 A. No, sir, it isn't right, no.
4 Q. It isn't right. I am going to pause here to ask you
5 how, in December, September and over that whole period
6 in 2004 -- how was it that you had this recollection so
7 clearly when it's, I suggest to you, so clearly wrong?
8 A. That's the memory I had since the accident. That's the
9 consistent memory that I have had since the accident.
10 I haven't seen the CCTV footage until today, nor seen
11 a timeline, so that was my best recollection up to that
12 point.
13 Q. I appreciate. You do recognise, do you, now, how you
14 can be -- I appreciate because of what you have been
15 through -- it may be that reason. I don't know. I am
16 not attempting to put any explanation on it -- you do
17 recognise how seriously wrong you have been in the past
18 about what you have suggested?
19 A. I believe that that particular instance has been --
20 I have been mistaken on it. That was my best memory at
21 that time, as I said. However, as I said to the
22 previous lawyer, that I believe if the instruction came
23 from Henri Paul, it would have been through Dodi.
24 Q. We will come to that. We will come to your belief about
25 that. It's quite a separate matter. So you recognise

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1 now there are not -- and it's really only between the
2 time you have left the bar, Bar Vendome, all right, that
3 you go upstairs and you are outside the suite -- it's
4 that time, all the way through, so it's 8 minutes past
5 11 French time through to 10 past 12 French time. It's
6 about an hour. So we have got that on CCTV. It just
7 doesn't happen in this way, do you follow? So that
8 memory is wrong?
9 A. That memory is mistaken.
10 Q. Yes, I am sorry, mistaken, whatever. I want to move to
11 the next stage.
12 "Later ..." and of course it can't be later because
13 Henri Paul hasn't been going in and out, do you follow?
14 Just follow on the statement there:
15 "Later Dodi stuck his head out."
16 Well, he hasn't stuck his head out after the comings
17 and goings of Henri Paul to the suite. Do you follow?
18 A. I believe Dodi did stick his head out of the door at
19 some point, yes.
20 Q. We will come to that. Nowhere in here, as I have
21 already put to you, nowhere in this statement, do you
22 suggest that -- and you now accept it must have been
23 Henri Paul -- do you ever suggest that Henri Paul told
24 you about the plan; do you follow?
25 A. I do, sir.

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1 Q. So that's another mistake, isn't it?
2 A. If it's not in -- I have not had a chance to read this
3 statement in detail.
4 Q. Would you like to? It's only this page in fact that we
5 are dealing with what I suggest to you is perhaps one of
6 the most crucial aspects of what happened that night.
7 Would you like an opportunity just to read through it?
8 A. No, I mean -- there is no reason -- as I said, my memory
9 was of Dodi informing me of the plan. Looking at the
10 CCTV footage, I accept that it would have been
11 Henri Paul who informed me of --
12 Q. It's Henri Paul. I will have to come back to it if it's
13 Henri Paul. As you say, it must have been him.
14 Now, just following it through to the question of
15 Dodi, because what you put in here is -- and since the
16 jury have not seen it before, I am just going to go
17 through what you say Dodi said:
18 "Later Dodi stuck his head out of the door to tell
19 us that they were leaving or would be leaving soon. He
20 told me that he wanted to leave from the back of the
21 hotel with Henri Paul driving just him and the Princess.
22 He told me 'You and Kes stay at the front to appear that
23 we are leaving from there'. I told him that wasn't
24 going to happen. I don't know if Henri Paul took any
25 part in deciding how the couple were going to leave the

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1 hotel."
2 Pausing there, note how you phrase it there. You
3 don't know whether Henri Paul did. Then:
4 "In any event the verbal command came from Dodi.
5 I do not remember whether Henri Paul was present when
6 the command was given. No other member of staff would
7 have heard this instruction. Dodi had remained in the
8 suite and I didn't see him until he came out to speak to
9 us about the arrangements for leaving the hotel.
10 "Although neither Kes nor I had a problem with
11 Henri Paul driving, I strongly advised Dodi that we
12 should leave from the front, where the usual driver,
13 Dourneau, was waiting. The vehicles at the front were
14 now in place because I think, by now, they had been
15 called for. The crowd had been pushed back and it was
16 all in order.
17 "I was also concerned that by leaving from the rear
18 entrance, there would be no back-up vehicle. I believe
19 at the time it was also my view that it would generate
20 more press interest by trying to escape from the rear
21 rather than just going out the front. As previously
22 mentioned, I had already discussed with the press that
23 they would get their photos from the couple leaving and
24 entering the premises and that they should not take
25 photos en route and buzz us.

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1 "Dodi would not listen to my reasoning and was
2 having none of it. I told him that if he insisted on
3 this plan of leaving from the rear, that I would also
4 insist that I should at least travel with him so that he
5 had some security, leaving Kes at the front of the hotel
6 to leave with the other vehicles. That was the
7 compromise that I managed to get from him. As far as
8 I was concerned, until he had told me otherwise, it had
9 been my understanding that we would all be leaving from
10 the front of the hotel in two vehicles.
11 "I insisted as forcefully as I could that we should
12 not leave from the rear. At the end of the day his
13 original idea was just him, the Princess and the driver
14 in one vehicle. If I had really started to kick up
15 a fuss, he would have just told me to do as he said and
16 to go to the front, so I had to make a decision on the
17 ground at the time. I had to decide on the best
18 compromise that I could reach with him without throwing
19 him into making another rash decision to go alone. If
20 I kept insisting that his idea was wrong, that we should
21 be leaving from the front, he would have got more het up
22 about me challenging him again and again.
23 "It was probably the most heated debate we had had
24 on that holiday as I had to try and emphasise as much as
25 I could what Kes and I wanted to do, but ultimately he

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1 was the boss and he had the authority to dismiss us if
2 he wanted to. Kes and I could not have carried him
3 kicking and screaming to the front of the hotel and thus
4 a workable compromise had to be made. The alternative
5 would have been Kes and me being sent to the front of
6 the hotel and leaving in cars waiting outside whilst the
7 couple left alone without any security cover."
8 Then you go on to describe Kes and so on.
9 Now, the most heated debate you had had with him on
10 the whole of the holiday.
11 A. It was a -- we had a strong --
12 Q. A strong interchange?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Which involves a certain amount of substantial argument,
15 doesn't it?
16 A. I don't believe it -- there was a great deal of argument
17 going on. I insisted the point, he conceded that
18 I would go with him and I accepted that as a workable
19 compromise, as I have said.
20 Q. I think you know what I am coming to. You see,
21 I suggest to you that the CCTV doesn't support this
22 either, does it? Do you know for how many seconds Dodi
23 puts his head out six minutes or so before they actually
24 leave the suite? Do you know how long it is?
25 A. Please tell me.

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1 Q. It's 28 seconds. Now this debate that you suggest here
2 following Henri Paul going in and out of the suite
3 didn't take place like that, did it?
4 A. Sorry. Repeat your question, please, sir.
5 Q. Yes. Would you now -- having seen the CCTV that
6 Henri Paul doesn't go in and out, that it's Henri Paul
7 that tells you and that Dodi only pokes his head out,
8 the only occasion is for 28 seconds, that you might be
9 wrong about this as well; do you follow?
10 A. I agree that looking at the CCTV footage, it looks like
11 Henri Paul would have been the person to inform me of --
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Please let me finish. Thank you. I also agree that,
14 according to the CCTV footage, it looks like there was
15 only 28 seconds of conversation. However, my best
16 memories of that time are what's written down here and
17 I stand by them.
18 Q. Well, you don't, do you, because you have agreed -- and
19 please understand we really just want to get at the
20 truth of what's happened. Don't stand by memories if
21 you can see -- if you are shown --
22 A. I have accepted the Henri Paul --
23 Q. All right.
24 A. I have accepted that, as I have said.
25 Q. Yes, and would you accept that it seems most unlikely

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1 that there was a debate of any length on this topic with
2 Dodi for 28 seconds?
3 A. If you take the CCTV footage, I can believe that's what
4 it would appear. However I believe I have been quite
5 consistent all along that I insisted that I would go
6 with the couple from the rear of the hotel. I believe
7 that's a consistent memory I have.
8 Q. We will come to it. Can we work back before we get to
9 the timeline? Let us accept that it was Henri Paul that
10 told you and that Henri Paul has not been in and out of
11 the suite. He plainly, on the face of it, hasn't been
12 going in and out of the suite, liaising with Dodi over
13 this plan, has he?
14 A. Not face-to-face, it wouldn't appear, sir.
15 Q. No. He is hardly going to do it over the phone, is he?
16 A. I don't know that. I can't answer that, sir.
17 Q. Now if, as it appears now, it was Henri Paul who told
18 you about this idea or rather plan, the actual plan, of
19 a decoy car at the back, and that it must have been
20 before you did the, as it is called -- if you look on
21 the master schedule, you will see that the event is
22 described on the master schedule, which the jury and you
23 have now in front of you. It's on the ninth page,
24 "Henri Paul's fifth and final visit":
25 "The bodyguards walk the final route."

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1 So it has got to be some time before 11.42. There
2 are at least two occasions where you may recall from
3 this morning where Henri Paul is standing in front of
4 the two of you, and he looks as though -- one can only
5 say this -- he is describing a situation with his hands;
6 do you remember?
7 A. I do, sir.
8 Q. So it could be -- and I can't place it as to whether it
9 is that occasion -- one of those two occasions before.
10 Looking at the master -- since it has headings, it's
11 a little easier to follow -- the first time he talks to
12 you outside the Imperial Suite is at 18 minutes past 11.
13 That is page 7. The next time is on page 8 at 23.36.
14 So there are two occasions where he is talking to you;
15 do you follow?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. Now what did Henri Paul say?
18 A. I can't recollect what he said.
19 Q. Now this is very important because if this is the first
20 time you are getting wind of this plan, I suggest to you
21 that what happened that night was that -- and please
22 understand I am putting it not as sort of some clever
23 criticism -- it's just as things turned out, you weren't
24 in as much control as you should have been on the night
25 and it's just a human error by you. Is that possible?

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1 A. Sorry. I don't understand the question.
2 Q. All right. I will put it into context. If
3 Henri Paul -- he is not employed by you, is he,
4 Henri Paul?
5 A. He is employed by Mr Fayed. He is not employed as part
6 of Mr Fayed's personal team, no.
7 Q. Quite. The actual route to authority in your particular
8 case is through Dodi onto, if you like, Park Lane, and
9 then eventually Mohamed Al Fayed himself.
10 A. Route concerning what?
11 Q. Well, who is your employer?
12 A. Mr Al Fayed was my employer.
13 Q. Sorry, yes, "was". Now, since you don't have
14 a recollection of what Mr Henri Paul said, I suggest to
15 you that actually you didn't take it on board that
16 night -- you may have been consumed with other problems;
17 do you follow -- but you didn't take on board what he
18 was saying to you whenever he said it before the final
19 walk, on either of those two occasions or perhaps some
20 other occasion. Is that possible, that you just didn't
21 take it on board?
22 A. No, I disagree.
23 Q. Then kindly tell us what your reaction was to
24 Henri Paul.
25 A. Well if, as you have said, it's more likely that

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1 Henri Paul was the person who informed us of the plan,
2 I believe my reactions would have been as I have stated
3 in the statement.
4 Q. You see, you have never described Henri Paul, before
5 today, doing it. You have never described any reaction,
6 and I will fill the gaps with you a little bit.
7 If Henri Paul said to you, as he must have done,
8 "Look, we are going to have a car out the back. It's
9 a decoy. We are not going to use the cars from the
10 front", what you ought to have done at that point is to
11 have challenged him, oughtn't you?
12 A. I believe that what I have said in my statement is what
13 we did. We did challenge the decision, and we decided,
14 as I said, that the workable compromise without
15 inflaming the situation was for myself to go with the
16 couple from the rear, rather than the original
17 suggestion.
18 Q. Yes, the question is: who did you challenge and who is
19 in control of what's happening in the Ritz? Do you
20 follow? If it's Henri Paul who tells you before your
21 final walk-through, there is not a shred of evidence
22 anywhere at any time that you ever said to him, "We
23 can't have this", is there?
24 A. I don't believe anyone -- I don't understand -- no shred
25 of evidence. I have stated it in my statement; I have

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1 mentioned it in my statement. The CCTV doesn't have
2 sound on it, so I don't know what I said.
3 Q. No, it doesn't. But do you see before today you had not
4 countenanced Henri Paul as being the source of it, do
5 you follow? So I am wanting to get from you whether you
6 challenged Henri Paul when he said "We are going to go
7 out the back with a decoy"?
8 A. I believe I would have done, sir, yes.
9 Q. You believe you would have done. Is it possible that
10 you didn't?
11 A. Not to my memory.
12 Q. Because I am going to suggest to you -- and I will give
13 you the illustrations -- that there are a number of
14 things that you overlooked, even on the 30th -- do you
15 follow?
16 A. Please carry on.
17 Q. -- and they were part of your responsibility on the
18 30th. The Ritz has a quite separate organisation in
19 terms of its security, the security at the Ritz, as
20 opposed to you providing security, personal security,
21 for Dodi. They are quite separate, aren't they?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. You agree. Now, if you are going to be responsible for
24 the security not just of Dodi -- and I think you accept
25 that it included Diana as well, didn't it?

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1 A. She was accompanying Dodi so she became part of our
2 responsibilities, sir, yes.
3 Q. -- you would want to ensure, particularly in
4 a Metropolitan area like Paris, but obviously elsewhere
5 as well, that they are both protected physically as far
6 as is humanly possible at all times.
7 A. I agree.
8 Q. You agree. Now I am going to start with an obvious
9 example, perhaps. If you look on so that -- now the
10 jury have it, I will go more slowly because they didn't
11 have this before -- but if you look on the bodyguards'
12 timeline, if you have that now --
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. -- and if you look at page 2, you will see two-thirds of
15 the way down that you go to the Bar Vendome -- do you
16 see that -- at 22.03.52. I will take the time on the
17 furthest left-hand side. They are slightly adjusted,
18 but for my purpose it will not make a difference.
19 So 22.03.52, you and Kes descend the stairs and you
20 go into the bar. Now, in this period, just before
21 I come to the end of it, you were asked about,
22 I suggest, a very long phone call, 10 minutes roughly;
23 do you remember?
24 A. Yes, I was.
25 Q. Right. I am going to suggest to you that you are not

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1 having a ten-minute phone call with the ops room, are
2 you?
3 A. I don't remember who I phoned at that time. It was
4 either Ben Murrell or the operations room --
5 Q. It would not be Ben Murrell either, would it?
6 A. I don't know, sir.
7 Q. Well, what would you have to be saying that took
8 10 minutes to either of those two? "We have arrived, we
9 are okay", that doesn't take 10 minutes, does it?
10 A. I don't know the content of the phone call so I can't
11 comment on that --
12 Q. I want you to think very carefully. You see, you had
13 just got back to the Ritz. You didn't even know,
14 because I suggest you are in the wrong car -- you didn't
15 even know what was going on, did you, when you got back
16 to the Ritz? Suddenly you are back at the Ritz. Then
17 they are in the restaurant, then they are upstairs. You
18 didn't really know what the plans were, did you?
19 A. The plans weren't communicated as much as they should
20 have been, sir.
21 Q. The answer is you really didn't know what the plans
22 were?
23 A. I have just given you my answer.
24 Q. The reason I am asking you that is that you would not
25 spend 10 minutes talking about plans you didn't know

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1 about. Do you follow? So you are not ringing
2 Ben Murrell back at the villa --
3 A. I don't know who I called.
4 Q. I want you to think.
5 A. I have already said to you that I believe it was either
6 the operations room or Ben. That's my best recollection
7 of who it would have been.
8 Q. Did you have other problems at the time? Please
9 understand that I am not going to pry into them, I am
10 not going to ask specifics I am just going to ask you:
11 did you have other problems occupying your mind and the
12 phone call had nothing to do with either Diana or Dodi
13 or the Ritz? Do you follow?
14 A. I understand what you are insinuating, sir, yes.
15 Q. Nothing improper, just that you were preoccupied, as we
16 all are from time to time, about other things.
17 A. I wasn't preoccupied by what you are suggesting, sir,
18 no.
19 Q. But you can't suggest what this phone call was, if it
20 was to Murrell or the ops room.
21 A. I can't. I can't suggest what the content was. I have
22 already suggested who I thought it would have been to.
23 Q. Now turn over to page 3. You are downstairs, either in
24 the bar or making a phone call outside or back in the
25 bar, until 23.08. That is in the middle of page 3. Do

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1 you see that?
2 A. Yes, sir, I do.
3 Q. You have picked it up?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So if you follow with me, that means that you are
6 downstairs for the best part of one hour; all right?
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. Who is upstairs protecting the Imperial Suite?
9 A. As far as I was aware, that would have been the Ritz
10 security personnel, sir.
11 Q. You have watched the CCTV, haven't you?
12 A. Yes, sir, I have.
13 Q. You must have been astonished to see that there is no
14 one up there, is there?
15 A. Sorry, is that a question, sir?
16 Q. Yes. There was no one upstairs when you weren't there,
17 sitting outside the suite, because -- so you can see the
18 context of the question -- the Ritz don't provide
19 personal protection if a person such as a so-called
20 celebrity or member of the Royal Family or whoever it is
21 staying -- they bring their own personal protection and
22 they look after it themselves, do you follow?
23 A. I follow what you are trying to suggest, sir, yes.
24 Q. Did you even consider who you were handing over to? Did
25 you talk to them?

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1 A. I don't remember the specifics of the time, sir. As
2 I said, as far as we were aware, the Ritz security was
3 taking over the post on the door whilst the couple were
4 inside.
5 Q. There isn't any post on the door in that sense for
6 the Ritz.
7 A. No, sir, there would have been a specific -- should have
8 been a specific post on the door.
9 Q. I want to ask you how much or whether you were -- the
10 point I am making to you is you were preoccupied. Do
11 you agree, first of all, that there is nothing in any of
12 your interviews to suggest that you had spoken to Ritz
13 security to ensure that a member of Ritz security was
14 outside the suite, is there?
15 A. I believe that's -- I have always stated that there was
16 someone from Ritz security there. That was my belief in
17 my statements.
18 Q. What was the question?
19 A. You are suggesting that I didn't speak to the Ritz
20 security to ask them --
21 Q. Yes. In other words if you are going to hand over
22 security of two people who are -- certainly one -- well,
23 both, by this stage, in the public eye, you would want
24 to ensure that you have sorted out with the Ritz
25 security, "Look, we are down in the bar if there is

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1 a problem and we will come straight up. This is my
2 mobile number. I am going into the square to make
3 a phone call"; all this sort of thing. It's fairly
4 basic, isn't it?
5 A. Sorry, was that a question, sir?
6 Q. Yes, that's fairly basic routine security, isn't it?
7 A. I don't understand your question. Are you actually
8 asking me a question there?
9 Q. Yes. The question is: have you any recollection of
10 speaking to a member of Ritz security to say you were
11 downstairs in the bar, or wherever you were, and you
12 would be back in an hour?
13 A. I think I have no specific recollections of what
14 happened at that time 10 years ago. As I said at the
15 start of your questioning, I have to rely on what I have
16 put in my statement. Sitting here today, I have no
17 specific recollections of individuals events.
18 Q. You see, according to the CCTV -- and of course if there
19 is any other CCTV which shows different -- the amount
20 that we have been shown so far does not indicate -- you
21 have seen it today, haven't you?
22 A. I have seen what's been put on the screen, sir, yes.
23 Q. It doesn't suggest when you left -- we can see it
24 again -- that there was any handover. Do you follow?
25 A. I follow what you are saying, sir.

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1 Q. I am not going to set it up now, but perhaps after the
2 break I will get you to look at some sequences of CCTV
3 so that you can see that there is no handover by you.
4 This wasn't the only occasion, I suggest, that you left
5 the suite with no-one outside, was it?
6 A. Sorry, that's a question, that I left the suite with
7 no-one outside?
8 Q. That's right.
9 A. Not -- according to the CCTV, there were times when
10 there was no-one outside of the suite, that's correct.
11 Q. Yes, but when you were both out of the hotel. Both the
12 bodyguards, personal protection, were out of the hotel,
13 but one of your charges was left inside the room.
14 A. That's what would appear from the CCTV.
15 Q. Yes, I think you know. The occasion -- I am actually
16 pinpointing here -- is a bit earlier. It's the occasion
17 when you go across to Repossi, Kes walks and you go by
18 car; correct?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Right. Any handover then, to say, "Look, we are just
21 popping over the square, we will be back in a second.
22 Princess Diana is in there, having her hair done", or
23 whatever she is having done, "Everything all right
24 there?"
25 A. I believe the Ritz security were fully aware of who was

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1 in the suite at that time and what was going on at that
2 time. They were fully aware, sir.
3 Q. Yes, they are fully aware of who is in there, but the
4 problem is, isn't it, that leaving aside paparazzi who
5 may or may not manage to get through the front doors,
6 other people can walk through the front doors, can't
7 they?
8 A. At the Ritz Hotel?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. It's a hotel, sir.
11 Q. Of course there are cameras everywhere, or at least the
12 jury know where they are, and you would not want, even
13 with cameras, to leave the suite unguarded, would you?
14 A. I think what you have to realise is at the time you have
15 to make an assessment of where the main threat is coming
16 from. With Dodi leaving the hotel, probably the main
17 threat was him outside, so the decision was taken at
18 that time to do that; the Princess being in the
19 Imperial Suite of the Ritz Hotel with attendant security
20 there, the main threat was, at that time, towards Dodi.
21 Q. Did you, at that time, notify Ritz security that you
22 were leaving the hotel with the Princess in the suite?
23 A. I can't specifically remember informing them, sir, no.
24 Q. Whose idea was it to drive across the square?
25 A. I don't remember who made the decision. The car turned

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1 up and that was --
2 Q. Yes, you see, I want to suggest to you that a lot of
3 things are happening which are really out of your
4 control. Who drove you across the square to Repossi's?
5 A. I don't remember who it was. I would assume it would
6 have been Philippe Dourneau at that time.
7 Q. Yes. One can assume almost anything, but I want to
8 suggest to you that that is the assumption you have
9 made, but it wasn't him. Did you know how the car was
10 arranged, how the driver was arranged or any of it?
11 A. I think you have to realise, sir, that the Ritz is part
12 of Mr Fayed's organisation. When the family visit, as
13 in that's not just Dodi, but Mr Fayed, his wife and the
14 children visit, they rely heavily on the vehicles from
15 the Ritz. We have to accept that they have set
16 standards and we have to fit in with them.
17 Q. That's the point. You were just fitting in with a Ritz
18 set-up that day, I mean an established framework of
19 working; do you follow? Working practice.
20 A. I wasn't fitting in with their established practice. We
21 were guiding them as to what we wished to do. However
22 we had to rely on their vehicles and their drivers at
23 that time.
24 Q. Yes. And the car that was used to get across the
25 Place Vendome wasn't the Mercedes that you had come into

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1 Paris from Le Bourget in, was it?
2 A. I am not aware of that, sir.
3 Q. No, you see, so when it comes to just crossing --
4 I appreciate it's only crossing the square. You have no
5 recollection of notifying Ritz security you have done
6 it, you have no recollection of who the driver was and
7 you have no recollection of what the car was that you
8 used; is that fair?
9 A. No, I remember the driver. The driver was a recognised
10 Ritz driver and the vehicle was --
11 Q. Well, was it a recognised Ritz driver?
12 A. I believe it was, sir, yes.
13 Q. Who was it?
14 A. I don't remember the person's name, but I'm going to --
15 Q. I will put a name to you. Does Mr Musa mean anything to
16 you?
17 A. I have seen his name mentioned in various documents.
18 Q. Yes. Do you know him?
19 A. Personally, no.
20 Q. So you didn't know whether he was a recognised Ritz
21 driver or not, did you?
22 A. I recognise his -- you are asking me to remember
23 specifically. It wasn't a stranger to me. It would
24 have been a recognised driver from the Ritz pool of
25 drivers, I believe.

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1 Q. Going back to the stage in the hotel and you going back
2 up to the suite in this vital hour before they leave
3 when Henri Paul must have told you. If Henri Paul, as
4 you say -- and I am not suggesting you are wrong about
5 this -- if Henri Paul, as opposed to appearing perfectly
6 competent and sober, no problem with him at all,
7 competent driving; all right?
8 A. That was reported (inaudible - overspeaking).
9 Q. That is how you have got it recorded. If, however,
10 unlike that, he had been under the influence of drink,
11 or rather -- let us put it more specifically -- you had
12 known that he had been drinking alcohol, your position
13 is that you would not have let him drive; is that right?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. So you do have the power to protect the person you are
16 there for from bad driving that might arise as a result
17 of alcohol, don't you?
18 A. I believe I would have had the power to stop a person
19 who had been drinking alcohol from driving the vehicle,
20 sir, yes.
21 Q. If you had been paying sufficient attention, you had the
22 power to stop Henri Paul carrying out a plan which
23 involved no protection and no back-up, didn't you?
24 A. I did stop a plan where there was no protection.
25 I myself travelled in the vehicle, as you know. As

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1 I have stated, there was -- the atmosphere at that
2 time -- I believe that if I had pushed the point -- out
3 at the front of the hotel there was subsequent paparazzi
4 there --
5 Q. We are talking about Henri Paul, not Dodi.
6 A. I accept that, sir. I am just --
7 Q. All right.
8 A. I did stop a plan where there was no security. I myself
9 went -- a workable compromise was reached that I went
10 and we left from the rear of the hotel.
11 Q. You see, it wasn't a workable compromise. I will come
12 to it now. During the summer of 1997, there was
13 a policy re-assessment once Diana had a relationship
14 with Dodi and was travelling with Dodi, wasn't there?
15 A reassessment of the protocols --
16 A. It wasn't an official re-assessment. It was
17 an assessment that was made by myself and the Park Lane
18 team.
19 Q. What was agreed, as a matter of sensible practice,
20 particularly in towns where there might be interference
21 from all sorts of people -- you agree?
22 A. I agree there might be interference from many people in
23 towns, sir.
24 Q. Of course. Not just the paparazzi -- there would be two
25 vehicles, a back-up and the vehicle in which they

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1 travelled?
2 A. We made that assessment, sir, yes.
3 Q. Yes. That can have only been arrived at, informally or
4 in any other form, a few weeks before August 30th.
5 A. I believe we made that assessment in the two weeks prior
6 to that holiday starting.
7 Q. Yes. It was still most unsatisfactory, not just no
8 back-up, but the idea of trying to creep out the back
9 and get the press, as it were, distracted at the
10 front -- and using the normal two cars at the front
11 didn't for you, you are saying, make any sense; right?
12 A. I didn't agree with the plan, sir, no.
13 Q. Yes, you didn't agree. If you had been paying attention
14 to Henri Paul as opposed to deferring to his authority,
15 you could have said to him, "Sorry, no go", couldn't
16 you?
17 A. I believe that Henri Paul's message came through Dodi,
18 and we reiterated to Dodi, when he popped his head out
19 of the Ritz -- out of the Imperial Suite, what we
20 recommended was to leave from the front of the hotel.
21 Q. Yes. How did you know it was coming from Dodi before
22 you went for the, as it were, final walk out the back,
23 having been told by Henri Paul?
24 A. I would think he would have said it.
25 Q. He would have said almost anything. Don't assume

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1 anything. You -- would this be fair -- have absolutely
2 no recollection of the conversation with Henri Paul, do
3 you?
4 A. I have no recollection of many individual conversations,
5 sir, no. As I said earlier, I am referring to what
6 I have said in statements.
7 Q. I know. I appreciate that. So you have no recollection
8 that Henri Paul ever said to you, "I have got it from
9 Dodi", have you?
10 A. Again you are asking me for specific memories of
11 conversations, and no, I don't, sir, no.
12 Q. You do recognise the importance of this, don't you?
13 A. Oh, it is a very important fact, sir, yes.
14 Q. Quite. You certainly don't have any recollection of
15 anybody saying -- or do you -- "Oh, we have got it
16 authorised", Henri Paul saying to you, "We have got it
17 authorised from Mohamed Al Fayed"?
18 A. I have never claimed that, sir, no.
19 Q. I am not saying you have. Because, of course, if there
20 is going to be a plan of this kind which you are
21 concerned about for the security of your principals, you
22 have an obvious remedy if you don't want to push it
23 yourself, haven't you?
24 A. Please tell me what that is.
25 Q. I think you know what it is, don't you? As somebody who

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1 had been with Dodi for 12 months and been with
2 Mohamed Al Fayed and been in the residence team --
3 I will put it to you to save time before the break --
4 what you do is a number of options. You can either
5 ring -- first of all, did you have a team leader at that
6 time?
7 A. The team leader would have been the team leader of
8 Mr Fayed's team.
9 Q. Right. So there is a team leader. There is
10 Mr Handley-Greaves, who we have heard a lot about --
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. -- who is in charge, basically, of personal protection.
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. There is John Macnamara, who is in charge of security
15 generally.
16 A. Director of security.
17 Q. Then there is Mohamed Al Fayed, obviously, who is in
18 overall charge. But if you wanted to take up a real
19 concern that Henri Paul is pushing you or in any way
20 cajoling you into a plan that you didn't accept, it
21 would be a ten-minute phone call or a five-minute phone
22 call or a two-minute phone call some time after you have
23 got back upstairs to the ops room, saying, "I am really
24 disturbed about this. I think we need to sort it out";
25 that was all you needed to do wasn't it?

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1 A. I think if you look to what I have said in various
2 statements, I had no problem with Henri Paul driving the
3 vehicle. I wasn't happy with the fact that we were
4 going without a back-up, however we accepted the
5 compromise of myself going in the vehicle and looking at
6 dealing with the situation either later that evening or
7 the following day.
8 Q. The question was: there is no problem about ringing
9 through to the ops room -- because you were getting
10 heated about this, you were insisting that it should be
11 the normal procedure because you have cleared the
12 paparazzi -- no problem about ringing through to the ops
13 room, was there?
14 A. I believe I would have phoned the ops room about various
15 things, sir.
16 Q. Yes, but you didn't about this, did you?
17 A. I don't remember specifics of telephone conversations,
18 I am afraid.
19 Q. I am not asking for specifics. Are you claiming you
20 telephoned the ops room about this?
21 A. I am not, sir. I am not claiming that at all.
22 Q. You are not claiming it?
23 A. I am not.
24 Q. No. What I want to suggest to you is -- please
25 understand it's not trying to be clever in retrospect or

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1 anything of that kind -- that for various other reasons
2 you just went along with Henri Paul, head of security or
3 acting head of security on the night, when he came up
4 with the plan in your presence; is that right?
5 A. I think we expressed our concern or I expressed my
6 concern -- I can't speak for Kes -- I expressed my
7 concern. We looked at the possibility of what was first
8 suggested. We disagreed with that. As I said many
9 times, we reached a compromise which I thought was
10 a workable compromise at that time and then we ran with
11 the situation.
12 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, would that be an appropriate moment?
13 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes. How do we stand for time?
14 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, I did actually forewarn that I probably
15 would trickle into tomorrow and I am afraid I will
16 trickle into tomorrow.
17 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes. Mr Keen, will you be taking
18 any time?
19 MR KEEN: I don't anticipate that I will be any material
20 time with this witness.
21 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Croxford?
22 MR CROXFORD: Perhaps 20 minutes or half an hour, sir.
23 MR HORWELL: 20 minutes, sir, I would have thought.
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We have a pretty full list of
25 witnesses tomorrow. Obviously everybody will do the

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1 best they can to keep it as short as possible, but
2 I realise that he is a very important witness.
3 MR MANSFIELD: Yes, sir. Certainly.
4 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We will break for quarter of
5 an hour.
6 (3.15 pm)
7 (A short break)
8 (3.30 pm)
9 (Jury present)
10 MR MANSFIELD: I have asked that we have -- they are very,
11 very short; just three sections. If you look on the
12 timeline for the movements of the bodyguards -- you have
13 it there -- and page 2 is the first one. I will do them
14 in order. Page 2 of the bodyguards' timeline. It's the
15 one at 22.03. I am using the times in the extreme
16 left-hand corner: Imperial Suite foyer, you enter the
17 foyer and they enter the suite, that is Diana and Dodi,
18 and then you return to the stairs. Could we just have
19 that first please?
20 (CCTV footage shown)
21 Can we go to the next one? It is on the next page,
22 3. This is when, at 22.20, you leave the bar. You will
23 see it in the middle of the page. Then you ascend the
24 stairs and at 23.09 you are back in the foyer again,
25 standing at the top of the staircase, entering the foyer

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1 and so on. Could we have that section, please?
2 (CCTV footage shown)
3 That will do. It's just a glimpse of that. Then
4 the final one is the one on page 6 at literally
5 22 seconds past midnight, again the unamended time,
6 through to 00.50. This is the 28 seconds. Could we
7 have that, please?
8 (CCTV footage shown)
9 Now I just showed those to remind everyone of the
10 passages I have been asking about. It's quite clear
11 that there is no other member of security sitting
12 outside that suite on those clips, is there?
13 A. Not on those clips, sir, no.
14 Q. Thank you. I just want to deal with some other aspects
15 in relation to -- what I am suggesting to you was that
16 you had deferred essentially to Henri Paul. I am going
17 to do it in order. You land at Le Bourget, the
18 arrangements have already been made and there is a car
19 driven by Dourneau as the lead car -- you are in that
20 one -- and a back-up with Henri Paul.
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. We make our way into Paris via Villa Windsor.
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. First of all, that's all been arranged by other people,
25 that actual pick-up?

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1 A. The transport, yes, sir.
2 Q. And the drivers?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. And the route is really down to Dourneau?
5 A. Chosen by the team on the ground, yes.
6 Q. I think you have agreed on more than one occasion in the
7 past that plainly you weren't that familiar with Paris,
8 and I think, in fact -- is the position you had been
9 once before with Dodi?
10 A. With Dodi. I had been previously with Mr Fayed's
11 family.
12 Q. All right. Then we are getting to the Ritz. Question:
13 wearing seatbelts?
14 A. I don't remember, sir.
15 Q. Think about this, even this detail. I know it's a long
16 time ago and I am going to put it straight to you: when
17 Mr Dourneau was in charge, he made sure people wore
18 their seatbelts.
19 A. I don't remember, sir.
20 Q. It's quite important, isn't it, seatbelts?
21 A. They are, sir, yes.
22 Q. May I put it to you that really you appear, if I may say
23 so, both in London and in France, to ignore the
24 provisions of the law, don't you?
25 A. I don't believe I do, sir, no.

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1 Q. You knew it was illegal in France by 1997 -- I can give
2 you the dates -- and similarly in England by 1997 for
3 both front-seat and back-seat persons not to wear
4 a seatbelt; you knew that, didn't you?
5 A. Yes, I did, sir, yes.
6 Q. Right. Now, of course, I appreciate what you may say,
7 which is as far as you are concerned, you need to quick
8 exit and that's why you didn't wear a belt.
9 A. Whilst moving in slow traffic in London, that's the
10 reason why.
11 Q. That's your explanation of why you didn't. But, of
12 course, that doesn't explain why somebody in your care
13 isn't wearing one, does it?
14 A. Sorry, was that a question, sir?
15 Q. It doesn't explain -- the fact that you may like to
16 excuse yourself from the implications of the law by
17 saying "I need to get out quickly", that excuse -- and
18 I leave aside the legality of it -- does not apply to
19 somebody in your charge like Dodi, does it?
20 A. No, it doesn't, sir, no.
21 Q. Did you ever say to him, "Look, I don't think I want to
22 be in a car with you if you are not going to wear your
23 safety belt"?
24 A. I wouldn't have used those terms, no, sir.
25 Q. That's a rather kind way of putting it. Do you follow?

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1 A. I follow what --
2 Q. I mean you don't have to beat him over the head and say
3 "Come on", but you might say to him, "Look, come on,
4 Dodi, you may feel it's easier without one, but really
5 I am your protection officer and I do not want to be
6 involved in some sort of collision in which you are not
7 wearing one". Did you ever have that discussion?
8 A. Not in those terms, sir, no.
9 Q. In fact you didn't have a discussion about it at all,
10 did you?
11 A. Not specifically about seatbelts, no, sir.
12 Q. That would apply to the moment at which you left the
13 rear of the Ritz on that fatal journey; you didn't
14 insist on safety belts, did you?
15 A. I don't remember what happened in the vehicle, sir.
16 Q. No, I do appreciate, and I promised and I won't take you
17 further, but your last memory -- I am just looking back
18 on your statements and your interviews -- seems to be
19 getting into the car.
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Is that fair?
22 A. I would say so.
23 Q. I just want to ask you, even at that stage you didn't
24 insist on people wearing their seatbelts because then
25 you had Diana as well as Dodi, didn't you?

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1 A. I don't remember any conversations in the vehicle about
2 it.
3 Q. Why didn't you?
4 A. I don't remember any conversations in the vehicle, sir.
5 Q. All right. I think you will accept that it's fair to
6 say that -- and we are coming on to later occasions.
7 Perhaps I had better go through the movements. You come
8 to the back of the Ritz with Mr Dourneau other driving.
9 You didn't know he was going to go to the back, did you?
10 A. Back in the afternoon?
11 Q. Yes. I am so sorry. We have come from the airport,
12 gone to Villa Windsor and then we go to the Ritz.
13 A. Yes, correct.
14 Q. You come in the rear entrance --
15 A. Rue Cambon.
16 Q. That was his decision?
17 A. As the driver, that was his decision.
18 Q. You are just sitting there -- I don't mean this
19 rudely -- I mean you are sitting there and it's out of
20 your hands; right?
21 A. He made a decision on those terms(?).
22 Q. He made a decision. Because, of course, it's necessary,
23 and if you were in control, plainly, which I suggest you
24 weren't -- if you were in control, say, in London, you
25 want people to know when you are arriving so there can

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1 be a smooth reception and transition into the premises?
2 A. I believe we called ahead at that time when we arrived
3 at the back of the Ritz.
4 Q. I am not saying you didn't. But you weren't dealing
5 with any of that, were you?
6 A. I didn't deal with the choice of the route. However,
7 when we were approaching the Ritz, I would have informed
8 them where we were going.
9 Q. Right. So we get into the Ritz, and we have dealt with
10 the visit to Repossi over the road and so on. You don't
11 remember the car, you don't remember the driver and so
12 on, so I don't go through that. Then we come to the
13 later stage, 7 o'clock in the evening, when you are
14 going to the apartment from the rear of the premises.
15 Who decided that?
16 A. Did we leave from the rear of the premises at that time?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. Okay. I don't remember who made that decision. That
19 was a decision taken on the ground by a combination of
20 the drivers and ourselves, I would assume.
21 Q. Well, you presume, but is this a fair picture: all you
22 are doing really is following on; somebody has decided
23 you will leave from the rear, and the next thing you
24 know you are leaving from the rear, with a driver who
25 has been already allocated in a car that's already been

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1 allocated and a back-up vehicle that's already been
2 allocated. Is that fair?
3 A. All part of Mr Fayed's organisation, sir.
4 Q. Of course, and you were fitting into this, weren't you?
5 A. We were directing as we saw fit for the security of the
6 couple. We had to involve the security and the drivers
7 of the Ritz Hotel. We didn't have the manpower or the
8 infrastructure ourselves on that trip. There was two of
9 us, so we had to assume that we used their manpower.
10 Q. Please understand, it's not a criticism. I am just
11 suggesting to you the reality on the ground, on Saturday
12 the 30th, in the evening -- and now we are in the
13 evening -- of who was really running the show, if I can
14 put it that way. Do you follow?
15 A. Myself and Kes.
16 Q. I suggest absolutely not. Do you follow?
17 A. I suggest it was, sir.
18 Q. So far you haven't taken any of the decisions, have you?
19 A. I believe I made a decision, based on the assessment on
20 the ground, to put myself in the vehicle to leave from
21 the rear of the hotel. That was an operational
22 decision, a workable compromise that we took. So, yes,
23 I did --
24 Q. You remember all that, do you?
25 A. I do, sir. I don't remember specifics.

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1 Q. You remember discussions with Philippe Dourneau?
2 A. Sorry, with who, sir?
3 Q. Philippe Dourneau, the driver.
4 A. Yes, I know who he is, sir. I don't know which
5 conversations --
6 Q. Did you have conversations with him?
7 A. I sure I had conversations throughout the day with him,
8 sir, yes.
9 Q. Why were they leaving from the rear at 7 o'clock, since
10 you remember?
11 A. Sorry, can you just rephrase which part of the day we
12 are on now, sir?
13 Q. I am sorry. Am I going too fast?
14 A. You are jumping about --
15 Q. I am dealing with 7 o'clock in the evening.
16 A. Okay, leaving the Ritz back to Dodi's apartment?
17 Q. That is right.
18 A. Okay. Thank you.
19 Q. Whose decision was it to go from the rear?
20 A. I believe that would have been a local decision taken by
21 the driver.
22 Q. Yes. Thank you.
23 A. Based on the knowledge he has of the traffic and Paris.
24 Q. You weren't involved in it, were you?
25 A. I would have been consulted about it, yes, sir.

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1 Q. Well you might have been consulted about anything. Do
2 you have a recollection?
3 A. Again you are asking for specific recollections of
4 conversations, which I do not have, no.
5 Q. Thank you. In this section of the evening, you are in
6 the lead vehicle. Who is driving the one behind?
7 A. It was another recognised Ritz driver. I don't know the
8 name of the gentleman, sir.
9 Q. The same one that you had in the afternoon?
10 A. I don't believe it was Henri Paul at that time, no.
11 Q. No, the one that went over to Repossi?
12 A. Again, I cannot remember that.
13 Q. I am only trying to demonstrate, if you don't mind, that
14 really you were not hands-on in this; you follow the
15 expression?
16 A. I understand what you are -- where your angle is, sir,
17 yes, however I don't accept it.
18 Q. All right. The route to the apartment on this occasion,
19 down to the driver?
20 A. He would have made the decision on the ground, yes.
21 Q. Who had contacted the apartment to let them know you
22 were coming?
23 A. That would have been either myself or Kes, I believe.
24 Possibly Philippe would have done it, but I would have
25 thought it was myself or Kes.

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1 Q. Were you aware that the security for the apartment had
2 been laid on and arranged by Henri Paul? Did you know
3 that?
4 A. I wasn't aware of that, sir, no.
5 Q. And that, in fact, the man on the door had been, as it
6 were, notified and warned of the possibility of being on
7 the door -- his name is Mr Gamblin -- two days before on
8 the Thursday; did you know that?
9 A. I did not, sir, no.
10 Q. You are in the flat, and then -- you have called it the
11 "final journey", so I will call it that in the hope that
12 you remember what I am talking about -- you now leave
13 the apartment to go to a restaurant, but you didn't know
14 which one?
15 A. To leave for a meal, sir, yes.
16 Q. Again, the route is being decided by the driver?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. But on this occasion, both the bodyguards get into the
19 rear vehicle?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. Not a good idea, is it?
22 A. That was a decision made on the ground at that time
23 based on the circumstances that we were facing.
24 Q. What's the answer to the question?
25 A. I believe I have given it.

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1 Q. It's not a good idea, is it?
2 A. It's a decision that was made based on the circumstances
3 at that time, sir.
4 Q. I appreciate what I think you may be getting at. You
5 wanted, quite naturally, to allow Diana and Dodi to have
6 some space; is that fair?
7 A. That was a decision -- trying to calm the situation,
8 yes, sir.
9 Q. Yes, I follow that. But, of course, calming
10 a situation -- because it was getting a little frenetic
11 because of the -- can I call it the "altercation" with
12 the paparazzi outside the apartment?
13 A. That happened on arrival at the apartment, yes.
14 Q. So you wanted, quite naturally, to keep the temperature
15 down?
16 A. I wished the couple to relax.
17 Q. And you didn't want any intrusions on their privacy, did
18 you?
19 A. I don't know exactly what my -- if it was to do with
20 intrusions on their privacy at that time or if it was to
21 do with calming the situation, as you have said.
22 Q. I am going to suggest to you that the reason why it
23 wasn't a good idea is the obvious thing for you is to go
24 in the lead vehicle, keep everything calm; if there is
25 any risk of paparazzi intervening, then you are there,

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1 and if you lose your way, you are there, and if there is
2 a change of plan, you know about it immediately and why.
3 Do you follow all that?
4 A. I follow what you are saying, sir, yes.
5 Q. That makes complete and utter sense from a security
6 point of view, doesn't it?
7 A. That is a standard practice, sir, yes. However, as
8 I said, the decision was made based on the circumstances
9 we faced.
10 Q. Of course, what happened, in fact, is that somewhere
11 along the line you turned back to the Ritz and you had
12 absolutely no idea what was really going on, did you?
13 A. Again I can't remember specific details of the journey,
14 but I believe we would have been informed by
15 Mr Dourneau.
16 Q. I am sorry, I am not asking you what would have
17 happened. The fact is you have no recollection and
18 never have had precise recollection of how it was that
19 you had to or why it was that you had to go back to
20 the Ritz before you got back to the Ritz?
21 A. I accept I have no specific recollections of
22 conversations, telephone calls and the like, no.
23 Q. No. Furthermore, it must have struck you as a bit odd,
24 this time, unlike the previous occasions -- ie the first
25 time you get to the Ritz, the second time you leave

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1 the Ritz, the third time you are back at the Ritz -- the
2 driver, this time, doesn't go round the back, he goes
3 round the front, whereby now there are paparazzi.
4 A. There were people following us at that time, yes.
5 Q. If you had had a hand in it, would you have wanted it to
6 be different, the way it was organised; rolling up at
7 the front door, paparazzi following, paparazzi outside?
8 Would you have wanted to play or make a contribution to
9 the plan?
10 A. I believe it depends on the approach to the hotel, which
11 is the best drop-off.
12 Q. But, of course, the best drop-off point from your point
13 of view is the one that ensures the greatest safety for
14 those in your charge; do you agree?
15 A. Yes, that's correct, sir.
16 Q. It's this occasion when, because you are in the back
17 vehicle, you have to get out and you have to handle the
18 press and one of them gets into the hotel on this
19 occasion.
20 A. Past the first door, not into the hotel, no.
21 Q. Sorry, past the first door. Now, that's just on that
22 particular day, up until -- and I have dealt with
23 matters that come after that.
24 Can we have on screen [INQ0005674]? If we could
25 have highlighted the 30th, please. So that it's clear

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1 and the jury understand, this is the typed-up entries in
2 the log for the 30th. Can you see that on the screen
3 there?
4 A. Yes, I can, sir, yes.
5 Q. Just run through it. Some of these have been already
6 put to you. 11.35 on the 30th, "G4 to Paris". That's
7 the plane. You have a code number. Perhaps you don't
8 remember it.
9 A. 22.
10 Q. CS22, and Mr Wingfield is 23; is that right?
11 A. I can't remember his call sign, I am afraid.
12 Q. It doesn't matter. You are 22?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. So if it says in the right-hand column "22" and "23",
15 does that mean that you both called in or does it just
16 mean that one of you did and you are both put down as
17 being there? Do you know how it works?
18 A. I believe it would have been one person calling in and
19 we both --
20 Q. All right. That stands to reason. Then 2.20 in the
21 afternoon, Paris; 3.20, from the villa, which we have
22 heard about, to the Ritz. Then no more entries until
23 the evening.
24 Can I just ask you a general question?
25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. In terms of the organisation of the flight and the
2 cars -- do you follow -- which is on this page --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- that would be done by the secretariat, wouldn't it?
5 A. The organisation of the flight would have been done
6 through 60 Park Lane offices.
7 Q. It's on a different floor; the eighth floor.
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Is that right?
10 A. Seventh or eighth, I can't remember.
11 Q. So the arrangements and so forth for all of that
12 wouldn't go in this log, would it?
13 A. It would have been put down in the diary.
14 Q. All right. Is future plans part of it?
15 A. Yes, correct.
16 Q. All right. Just passing on here on the timings, what
17 should be here -- do you know Mr Quaife?
18 A. I do, yes.
19 Q. So it's clear to everybody, I suggest he is on duty for
20 part of this, on this day, particularly from -- and
21 I will put the time precisely -- 8 o'clock in the
22 evening onwards. That is 20.00 hours. Yes, I have just
23 been reminded. The times on the sheet are English
24 times. Do you follow?
25 A. Yes.

164

1 Q. So everybody knows. So when we get to the next one,
2 20.50, which your attention has been drawn to already,
3 it's actually 21.50, which accords with the time that
4 you eventually get back to the Ritz. What is missing
5 here is any call from either of you that is recorded
6 about, for example -- I leave out Repossi -- leaving
7 the Ritz to go to the apartment at 7 o'clock, leaving
8 the apartment later on in the evening to go to the
9 restaurant. None of that is in here, but it ought to
10 be, oughtn't it?
11 A. It should be, yes.
12 Q. Is it because, once again, both of you overlooked
13 ringing up ops and saying, "Look, we are on the move"?
14 A. I don't think so, no.
15 Q. So you would say one of you rang in, but you have no
16 recollection that it was you?
17 A. One of us would have informed London operations room
18 every time the couple moved to a major location.
19 Q. Of course, more particularly, if you just look down, the
20 key moment when they are at the Ritz and then they leave
21 the Ritz, just gone midnight, that isn't in there, is
22 it?
23 A. Not on that --
24 Q. I want to suggest here much more particularly that
25 nobody had phoned the ops room to say that she, Diana,

165

1 and Dodi were leaving, had they?
2 A. I disagree. That's been standard practice and we had
3 done it throughout the holiday, so I believe we would
4 have done it.
5 Q. I appreciate. What I want to suggest to you, whatever
6 may have been standard practice, whether it's seatbelts
7 or whatever it is -- I have been through the various
8 areas -- standard practice somehow or another, once you
9 are at the Ritz, really wasn't followed, was it?
10 A. That's your suggestion, sir. I disagree.
11 Q. But this much you do agree: you are not in a position
12 and you don't claim that there was any phone call from
13 you to the ops room, to pass on to anyone else,
14 indicating how upset you were or how anxious you were,
15 whatever word you choose to use, about the decoy plan;
16 you agree that?
17 A. No, I don't, I made a decision on the ground.
18 Q. It didn't go back?
19 A. No.
20 Q. So if nobody rings up to let them know about this decoy
21 plan, there is no way that anybody at the ops end could
22 possibly authorise such a thing, is there, if they don't
23 know about it?
24 A. No, correct.
25 Q. Right. Now I want to move to one or two other areas,

166

1 please. One is Dodi himself. I am going to choose
2 words carefully because you have been asked about him
3 before. Do you agree that, as a personality, he was
4 quiet, charming, gentle and so forth?
5 A. He was a very quiet gentleman, yes.
6 Q. And polite?
7 A. Generally, sir, yes.
8 Q. I just want to put to you -- you may know because it's
9 been in the press anyway -- he was not somebody who was
10 shouting and waving at you every time you were driving
11 in London or anywhere else, suggesting that you break
12 the law and if you weren't prepared to do it, you would
13 be sacked?
14 A. No, he would never put it in those terms, no.
15 Q. So far as Mohamed Al Fayed is concerned, who you also
16 know -- I will not take you through all the passages --
17 do you agree that in fact, after the crash, he extended
18 considerable generosity to you and your family, didn't
19 he?
20 A. I have never disputed that.
21 Q. I know you haven't. I just wanted to be clear.
22 A. Correct, yes, he did.
23 Q. In general terms -- and I am not going into the medical
24 sides of it at all -- helping with transport to get your
25 family to Paris, accommodation, expenses, all that kind

167

1 of thing?
2 A. Correct, yes.
3 Q. And more than that -- because your mother, at one stage,
4 I think, wrote a letter to this effect -- he never put
5 pressure -- he never put pressure -- on you or your
6 family to say one thing or another, did he?
7 A. I can't comment on what he said to my family, but
8 I don't believe he did, no. Pressure to me to say
9 things, what's -- are you asking after --
10 Q. Yes, after the crash. In other words if the suggestion
11 is, as it may be -- I don't know -- from others that he
12 was forcing people to say things, he didn't force you to
13 say anything in particular?
14 A. I was asked to suggest -- or to ask certain questions to
15 the judge on his behalf, but not to say things, to
16 change things, no, sir.
17 Q. Thank you. Just in the context of this, The Mirror
18 interview -- in fact, when you went -- I will not take
19 a lot of time over it. First of all, this was
20 a voluntary interview that you did, wasn't it?
21 A. Yes, it was, yes.
22 Q. There was a press release that has been mentioned. May
23 I just have this -- I am sorry, I should have given
24 forewarning. Can we have this on screen, please,
25 a press release that was drafted? It is [INQ0037469 - Read out in court].

168

1 Sir, I wonder if I may have just one moment.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes. (Pause)
3 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, if I may, to save time, may I just read
4 it? It is relatively short.
5 "I wish to explain how the interview with
6 Mr Piers Morgan went and to state categorically that
7 I received no payment for the interview from the Daily
8 Mirror ..."
9 There is a copy. Sir, I don't know whether you have
10 it.
11 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I don't.
12 MR BURNETT: Sir, might I explain. There is a press release
13 that was put out on behalf of Mr Rees, and what is now
14 in front of him is the original English version. What
15 my learned friend was reading from was a translation of
16 a French translation of that back into English, and thus
17 it's likely that the precise language will be different,
18 but it will no doubt test the translation skills to see
19 whether, in the route, it all runs smoothly.
20 MR MANSFIELD: Forgive any slight differences between the
21 two. Because I do not have that one, I will read this
22 one:
23 "I wish to explain how the interview with
24 Mr Piers Morgan went and to state categorically that
25 I received no payment for the interview from the Daily

169

1 Mirror or from any other newspaper."
2 From what you have told the jury, that's correct?
3 A. Correct, yes.
4 Q. Then the next paragraph:
5 "I have asked my lawyers to represent me in
6 particular with regard to media requests. My lawyers
7 are completely independent of the Harrods organisation.
8 I have asked my employers to direct any requests from
9 the press to my lawyers and they have indicated that
10 they will henceforth do so."
11 So is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I know it is there. I am just having to ask.
14 "As you know, I started light duties at Harrods
15 a few weeks ago. In order to assist me, my employers
16 referred me to a psychiatrist and I am grateful to
17 Mr Al Fayed for the support he has given me and my
18 family since the accident."
19 Is that right?
20 A. It's slightly different, but generally the same.
21 Q. "So far, I have been questioned three times by the
22 examining magistrate. I remember little of the last
23 moments of 31st August. Thanks to my psychiatrist, I do
24 remember a few more things and that is why I have asked
25 the magistrate to see me again to tell him what

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1 I remember.
2 "That was the situation as of Wednesday,
3 25 February. On that day, I had another appointment
4 with the psychiatrist and I remembered some more things.
5 Later that day, I was present at a meeting at Harrods.
6 On that occasion, I met Mr Piers Morgan, who
7 I understood to be the editor of the Daily Mirror.
8 I answered his questions to the best of my ability.
9 "I have not entered into any arrangement with the
10 Daily Mirror. I have not given any exclusives to that
11 newspaper and have not received any other kind of
12 remuneration."
13 Is that a fair summary as a press statement of the
14 position vis-a-vis The Mirror interview?
15 A. I would say so, sir, yes.
16 Q. One more thing and that's all, and that is this: this is
17 going back in time, I am afraid, a little bit before the
18 weekend and the crash itself. In that final week --
19 it's the second Jonikal trip --
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. -- during that week, you accept you did go ashore in
22 Monte Carlo?
23 A. Yes, we did.
24 Q. You know there is an issue about whether a ring and so
25 forth had been purchased?

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1 A. I am aware of that, sir, yes.
2 Q. I have not gone into any detail, but did you know in the
3 Place Vendome, when you went across in the car, what
4 Dodi was doing at that time?
5 A. No, I didn't, sir, no.
6 Q. You didn't know what he was getting or not getting?
7 A. I knew where he was going but not for what --
8 Q. No. You have not said you were a particular confidant;
9 he didn't discuss with you that kind of thing?
10 A. No, he didn't, sir.
11 Q. Had the name "Repossi" by August 1997 -- if you would
12 kindly put yourself back into that position -- did it
13 mean anything to you then?
14 A. No, it didn't, sir.
15 Q. If somebody had said "There is Repossi's", you wouldn't
16 have known whether it was an ice cream place or a
17 jewellers --
18 A. No, I wouldn't, sir.
19 Q. -- without being disrespectful to either. So you
20 wouldn't have known. All I want to put to you is: you
21 don't remember the date -- I am not suggesting you
22 should; there is no issue -- it was 23rd August, so it's
23 quite soon in the trip, all right, the second trip, that
24 you go round Monte Carlo. You are not saying they
25 didn't look in shop windows as they went round, are you?

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1 A. No, I'm saying that, no, sir. They didn't enter into a
2 shop --
3 Q. I am not putting to you that they entered the shop, but
4 you are not saying they didn't look in shop windows as
5 they --
6 A. Not at all, sir, no.
7 MR MANSFIELD: Thank you very much.
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield, in the personal
9 letter from Mohamed Al Fayed to Lord Stevens of
10 9th February 2006, which has been read out to the jury,
11 Mr Al Fayed makes, among other things, the following
12 specific allegations: first, that Mr Rees did not lose
13 his memory but knows exactly what happened between the
14 Rue Cambon and the Alma Tunnel; second, that he has told
15 lies and he has been paid to tell lies; and three, that
16 he was appointed head of United Nations Security in
17 East Timor as an inducement to ensure his continued
18 silence.
19 Are these allegations being maintained by
20 Mr Al Fayed because, if so, Mr Rees is entitled to be
21 told of any evidence in support of them and to give us
22 his explanation.
23 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, I have been very careful in the
24 examination. I have not maintained those and I am not
25 in a position to produce any material to support them.

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1 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Why haven't they been withdrawn
2 by Mr Al Fayed since 9th February 2006? They are very
3 grave allegations, and one would have thought that a man
4 with any decency who was not going to pursue them would
5 withdraw them.
6 MR MANSFIELD: May I say this with regard to that?
7 I appreciate the nature and gravity of the allegations
8 and I hope that in the longer term his position will be
9 appreciated, and that is this: that he has been very
10 concerned from the beginning to discover the
11 circumstances of the crash and obviously what lay behind
12 it. There have been many beliefs that he has held, and
13 in my submission he was quite entitled to hold certain
14 beliefs and obviously to see whether, in the longer
15 term, when those beliefs were, as it were, exposed to
16 this inquest, whether there was material which supports
17 them.
18 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Well, the responsible and decent
19 course is when they are no longer being pursued, to make
20 it clear in public and to the jury that they are not
21 being pursued.
22 MR MANSFIELD: May I leave that for the moment until very
23 soon, when he gives evidence.
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I am sure he will be asked about
25 this.

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1 MR MANSFIELD: I am sure he will. I think it's fair that
2 the jury do understand that the process in an inquest is
3 such that relatives of dead people often do have very
4