Hearing transcripts

17 October 2007 - Afternoon session
5 (1.30 pm)
6 (Jury present)
7 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Hough, I think the position is
8 that the missing witness has not appeared and there is
9 no immediate explanation as to why not.
10 MR HOUGH: No.
11 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: So that will have to be explored
12 by the French authorities who are helping us.
13 MR HOUGH: She will have to be chased, as far as that can be
14 done.
15 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: But the other witnesses are
16 prepare and the next witness is --
17 MR HOUGH: Jean Pascal Peyret. Could you give your name,
18 please, Mr Peyret?
19 THE WITNESS: M Jean Pascal Peyret.
20 MR HOUGH: Could the witness please be sworn or make an
21 affirmation?
22 MR JEAN PASCAL PEYRET (affirmed)
23 (Evidence via videolink, interpreted)
24 Questions from MR HOUGH
25 MR HOUGH: My name is Jonathan Hough and I ask questions on

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1 behalf of the coroner.
2 Now I think you witnessed, or at least heard, some
3 events near the Alma Underpass in Paris in
4 the early hours of 31st August 1997, is that right?
5 A. Yes, it is right.
6 Q. And I think you were interviewed by the French police
7 later on that day. Is that right?
8 A. Yes, in the morning.
9 Q. Do you have in front of you a copy of the statement you
10 made on that occasion?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Have you had the opportunity to read it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, Mr Peyret, I am going to ask you three questions
15 which are being asked of all witnesses. The first is:
16 have you ever been interviewed by anyone else other than
17 the French police in relation to these events?
18 A. That very same day or at a later stage?
19 Q. At any stage.
20 A. Well, much later on I was contacted by the press.
21 Q. Which press organisations contacted you?
22 A. Time Magazine, European edition.
23 Q. Was that the only press organ that contacted you?
24 A. No, much later an American TV channel, ABC.
25 Q. Did you give interviews to any of those press bodies?

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1 A. Well, we had two meetings. I had one with the editor in
2 chief at Time Magazine, and then I said to him what
3 I had already said, and ABC called us many times to try
4 to get information from us.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 The second question that I am asking is: have you
7 ever been offered or received any payment in relation to
8 your account of these events?
9 A. No, none at all.
10 Q. And do you expect any payment or reward in the future
11 for your account of these events?
12 A. No, and I would decline anyway.
13 Q. Thank you very much.
14 Can we now turn to the events of the evening of
15 30th/31st August 1997? I think on that evening, on
16 the Saturday evening, you had been to dinner in Paris at
17 Le Bristol Hotel. Is that right?
18 A. Absolutely right.
19 Q. And Le Bristol Hotel is towards the west end of the
20 Rue Saint Honore, is it not?
21 A. That must be the case.
22 Q. And you were with Severine Banjout, who was then your
23 girlfriend and is now your wife?
24 A. Yes, absolutely.
25 Q. And after dinner you drove to collect your child in

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1 a place in the 16th arrondissement, near Trocadero.
2 A. Yes, Pompe Street.
3 Q. I think you were driving a dark blue Saab 900 cabriolet
4 car, is that right?
5 A. Yes, dark blue, yes.
6 Q. And your route took you first of all to
7 Place de la Concorde, didn't it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Then you drove down the embankment expressway going
10 west, didn't you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And that is Cours la Reine, becoming Cours Albert 1er?
13 A. Yes, certainly.
14 Q. And you were driving along there after midnight, were
15 you not?
16 A. Yes, it is what I stated.
17 Q. As you were driving along and before you reached the
18 Alma Underpass, how heavy was the traffic on that road?
19 A. There were few cars. It was very quiet.
20 Q. What speed were you driving at along that road?
21 A. I cannot remember, but I was not going very fast. I was
22 going at a reasonable speed.
23 Q. What would you regard as a reasonable speed on that
24 road?
25 A. About 60 kilometres per hour.

37

1 Q. As you were approaching the tunnel at Place de l'Alma,
2 which lane were you travelling in?
3 A. The right-hand lane.
4 Q. Did you remain in that lane on your way into and through
5 the tunnel?
6 A. Yes, I believe so. I have no reason to change things.
7 Q. On your approach to the tunnel, did any vehicles
8 overtake you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. When you were driving into the tunnel, were you
11 initially aware of any vehicles around you or in the
12 tunnel?
13 A. No, none.
14 Q. As you were driving into and through the tunnel, were
15 you looking in your rearview mirror at regular
16 intervals?
17 A. I must have done, but I did not see anything in
18 particular.
19 Q. So is it right to say that you were not aware of any
20 cars or other vehicles before you heard the crash?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Before you heard the crash, did you see any sight of any
23 bright flashing light in the tunnel?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Now I think --

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1 THE INTERPRETER: The witness would like to specify
2 something.
3 MR HOUGH: Yes, of course.
4 A. It is a convertible car, so the rear window is very
5 small, you don't see very well through it, and it is not
6 a big window; it is a very small one.
7 Q. I think the time came in the tunnel where you heard
8 a sound of a crash, didn't you?
9 A. I heard two noises, one after the other.
10 Q. Could you look at a bundle of plans and photographs
11 which is in front of you now?
12 This is page 43 [INQ-JB1-0000043] members of the
13 jury. Do you see there a view into the tunnel from
14 a driver's perspective? Can you indicate how far you
15 were into the tunnel when you heard these sounds?
16 A. I was getting out of the tunnel, going up the slope, so
17 it means my point of view was even more restricted.
18 Q. What sounds did you hear as you were coming out of the
19 tunnel?
20 A. Well, first the sound of an impact and then, after that,
21 another sound that was much heavier, bigger, bigger
22 impact.
23 Q. I think you told the police that the sounds sounded like
24 the crash of metal.
25 A. Yes, I said that first of all I thought it was taking

39

1 place overhead, on the bridge, and that it was in
2 relation to a truck, a collision with a truck.
3 Q. After you heard the sounds, did you look in your
4 rearview mirror?
5 A. No, I could not see anything because I was going up the
6 slope and my wife said something because she turned
7 around, but I told her that I thought it was taking
8 place over our heads.
9 Q. Did you react to the sounds of the crash in any way, by
10 slowing down, speeding up, anything like that?
11 A. Yes, I slowed down.
12 Q. Now, while you were coming out of the tunnel, were you
13 yourself aware of any vehicle overtaking you?
14 A. No, not a vehicle. My wife saw something -- she will
15 tell you afterwards -- but I did not see a vehicle.
16 Q. Did your wife tell you what she had seen at the time or
17 later?
18 A. Well, we were wondering what to do, but anyway, there is
19 no place where you could park before you get to
20 the Trocadero and we knew that our son was waiting for
21 us and we thought it was Paris. You know, things were
22 happening in Paris anyway.
23 Q. How long did you remain on the expressway before you
24 turned off it?
25 A. About two minutes. There is not even 1 kilometre of

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1 distance until we got to the street that goes up to
2 the Trocadero.
3 Q. And I think you said to the police that you turned off
4 on the Rue Albert de Mun.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Over the short distance between the end of the tunnel
7 and when you turned off, were you aware yourself of any
8 vehicles overtaking you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did any vehicle catch your attention over that period?
11 A. No.
12 MR HOUGH: Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
13 There may be some questions from others.
14 Questions from MR KEEN
15 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes, Mr Keen.
16 MR KEEN: I am obliged, sir.
17 Good afternoon, M Peyret. My name is Richard Keen
18 and I am counsel for the parents of the late Henri Paul
19 and I just want to ask you a few short questions.
20 Can I just be clear that you drove into the
21 Alma Tunnel in the right-hand lane and proceeded through
22 the Alma Tunnel in the right-hand lane?
23 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: We cannot hear you, I am afraid.
24 MR KEEN: We shall try two microphones.
25 Can I just be clear that you drove into the

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1 Alma Tunnel in the right-hand lane of the expressway and
2 continued through the Alma Tunnel always in
3 the right-hand lane?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. At any point when you were driving into the Alma Tunnel
6 or through the Alma Tunnel, did you see or require to
7 overtake a small white slow-moving motor car?
8 A. No.
9 Q. When you were interviewed by the French judicial police,
10 did they ask you about a small white motor car in
11 the approach to the tunnel or in the tunnel itself?
12 A. No. Never.
13 Q. You mentioned something that your present wife had seen;
14 I wonder if you could just look at your deposition for
15 a moment, the deposition that you gave on
16 31st August 1997 to the judicial police. Do you have
17 that in front of you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If you turn to the top of page 2, do you see a paragraph
20 that begins, "Lorsque nous quittions le tunnel ..."?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I wonder if you could read that whole paragraph,
23 Mr Peyret.
24 Could I ask the interpreter to translate?
25 A. "So when we left the tunnel, Severine Banjout has

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1 distinctively seen a motorcyclist that overtook us at
2 a very high speed on our left. I do not know in which
3 direction that motorcyclist went."
4 MR KEEN: Thank you, M Peyret, no further questions.
5 MR HOUGH: No questions, sir.
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Any other questions?
7 MR HOUGH: Sir, just one.
8 Further questions from MR HOUGH
9 MR HOUGH: M Peyret? Could you just read on the sentence
10 beyond what you have just been reading in your
11 deposition?
12 A. "Personally I was still occupied by the series of shocks
13 that I had heard and for that reason I did not pay any
14 attention to the presence of that motorcyclist."
15 Q. Was that passage immediately following the passage that
16 you have just read in response to questions from
17 Mr Keen?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR HOUGH: Thank you very much and thank you for coming.
20 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you very much for coming
21 and giving us the help of your evidence. Thank you.
22 Madame Peyret I think is next.
23 MR HOUGH: Yes. Are you Severine Peyret?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
25 MR HOUGH: Could the witness please make the oath or

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1 affirmation --
2 MRS SEVERINE PEYRET (affirmed)
3 Questions from MR HOUGH
4 (Evidence via videolink, interpreted)
5 MR HOUGH: Madame Peyret, my name is Jonathan Hough and
6 I ask questions on behalf of the coroner. I think you
7 were a witness to events on the night of 30th and
8 31st August 1997 in Paris, weren't you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you were interviewed by French judicial police later
11 on that day, weren't you, 31st August?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Your husband has told us about some contact he had with
14 press outlets. Did you also have contact with those
15 media outlets?
16 A. Less than he did.
17 Q. Other than the two media outlets that your husband was
18 contacted by, were you contacted or interviewed by
19 anybody else in relation to these events?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Now some questions we are asking of all witnesses.
22 First of all, have you been offered or received any
23 payment for your account of these events?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you expect, in the future, any payment or reward for

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1 your account of these events?
2 A. No.
3 Q. On the Saturday night, 30th/31st August 1997, you were
4 in Paris with M Peyret, weren't you?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. We have heard that you had been to dinner at
7 Le Bristol Hotel.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you were going to pick up your son near
10 the Trocadero, weren't you?
11 A. Yes, on Pompe Street.
12 Q. You were a front passenger in your husband's, then
13 boyfriend's, Saab 900 car, weren't you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Your route took you to Place de la Concorde and then on
16 the embankment road, didn't it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you were driving along the embankment road after
19 midnight, weren't you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. As you were driving along that road, before you reached
22 the Alma Tunnel, how heavy was the traffic that you were
23 aware of on that road?
24 A. There were few people.
25 Q. And how fast was your then boyfriend driving along

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1 the road?
2 A. Well, it is a long time ago, but I recall that he was
3 driving at a normal speed and not particularly slow and
4 not particularly quickly.
5 Q. As you were approaching the Alma Tunnel, which lane were
6 you driving in?
7 A. I cannot remember. Maybe I told the police at the time.
8 Q. Could you look please at your statement? It is about --
9 A. Yes, it says "in the right-hand lane".
10 Q. Does that help to jog your memory now?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you remain in the right-hand lane all through
13 the tunnel?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. As you were approaching the tunnel, did you have to pull
16 out of that lane to overtake any vehicles?
17 A. No.
18 Q. As you were approaching and driving into the tunnel,
19 were you aware of any vehicles around yours?
20 A. No.
21 Q. In the minutes before you heard the crash, did any
22 vehicles overtake you?
23 A. I cannot remember.
24 Q. Now I think your attention was drawn by some sounds of
25 a crash behind, was it not?

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1 A. My attention was drawn to a huge noise, deafening sound,
2 not several, just one huge sound -- well, two actually,
3 not several, just two, but they were really big.
4 Q. I think you told the police that the sound sounded like
5 the crashing of metal; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You also told the police that the second sound was
8 identical to the first; is that also right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Could you yourself tell where the sounds were coming
11 from when you first heard them?
12 A. No. There was something happening nearby, but I could
13 not tell if they were left, right, before us, behind us.
14 Q. Could you please look at a bundle of plans and
15 photographs which has been provided? Again, it is
16 page 43 [INQ-JB1-0000043].
17 Do you see there a view into and through
18 the Alma Tunnel? Can you indicate, using that
19 photograph, how far you had got into the tunnel when you
20 heard the sounds you have just described?
21 A. Well, towards the exit, not very far from it. Still in
22 the tunnel.
23 Q. After you heard the sounds, where did you look?
24 A. I tried to look behind, but I could not see anything.
25 I said to my husband that I thought an accident had just

47

1 happened, but I did not know where it was. My husband
2 said that he thought the same thing, but that he thought
3 that it had taken place above us, that is in the
4 crossroads, and taking into account the place itself,
5 it is impossible to stop in the tunnel.
6 Q. Now you describe trying to look around to see behind
7 you.
8 A. Yes, but I did not see anything.
9 Q. I think we have heard that the rear window of your car
10 is rather small.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And I think you were going up a slope at the time as
13 well.
14 A. I could not tell you for sure, but I think as a matter
15 of fact we were starting to go up the slope, but I could
16 not tell you for sure.
17 Q. How did your boyfriend, the driver, react when he heard
18 the sounds?
19 A. Well, he was worried, just like I was.
20 Q. Did he speed up/slow down/move lanes, anything like
21 that?
22 A. Well, he just went on like -- in the same way as he was
23 going.
24 Q. As you were coming out of the tunnel, did any vehicle
25 overtake you?

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1 A. A motorcycle.
2 Q. Could you turn on to page 44 [INQ-JB1-0000044] of that
3 bundle please? This is a view slightly further into
4 the tunnel. Can you indicate where you had reached when
5 you were overtaken?
6 A. Well, towards the exit.
7 Q. Were you on the slope by that stage or had you not
8 reached the slope yet?
9 A. I do not believe so, but it was a matter of seconds.
10 Q. A matter of seconds after the crash?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you describe the motorcycle?
13 A. No.
14 Q. How many riders did it have?
15 A. One.
16 Q. Can you tell us anything about its speed?
17 A. Well, it was fast; faster than we did.
18 Q. Can you say anything more about its speed than that
19 it was travelling faster than you were?
20 A. No.
21 Q. How close did it travel to your car?
22 A. It was very close.
23 Q. Did you first notice it through the side window or
24 the front windscreen?
25 A. Side window.

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1 Q. Were you looking to the left at the time or did you see
2 it from the corner of your eye?
3 A. I was looking to the left.
4 Q. Could you see where the motorcycle went after it had
5 overtaken you?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you see it again as you were driving along
8 the expressway?
9 A. I cannot remember.
10 Q. I think you continued to drive along the expressway for
11 a couple of minutes and turned off at the Rue Albert de
12 Mun.
13 A. Yes, that is right.
14 Q. While you were driving along that section, did any other
15 vehicles overtake you that you can remember?
16 A. I cannot remember.
17 Q. And do you remember having overtaken any vehicles?
18 A. No, I cannot remember.
19 Q. Thank you very much. Those are my questions. Others
20 may have some more questions.
21 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Keen?
22 Questions from MR KEEN
23 MR KEEN: Good afternoon, Madame Peyret.
24 A. Good afternoon.
25 Q. My name is Richard Keen and I am the counsel for

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1 the parents of the late Henri Paul. I would ask that
2 you have in front of you for a moment the statement
3 which you gave to the judicial police on
4 31st August 1997. Do you have that?
5 A. Yes, I have it.
6 Q. Would it be fair to assume that your recollection of
7 events was better on 31st August 1997 when you gave this
8 statement than it is today, more than ten years later?
9 A. Yes, of course.
10 Q. If you look to the foot of the first page, do you see
11 that there is a paragraph there where you describe
12 the speed of the motorcycle as "a tres grand vitesse".
13 A. Yes, I can see it.
14 Q. Could the interpreter please translate for us just
15 the second part of that sentence, so that we understand
16 what was meant by the French? Could you translate into
17 English the words "a tres grand vitesse"?
18 A. At a very high speed.
19 Q. Now if you turn to the second page of your statement,
20 did you conclude by saying to the judicial police
21 something about the behaviour of the motorcyclist?
22 I think you will find a sentence beginning "J'ai vite
23 compris que cette moto ..." Do you see that?
24 A. Yes, I can see it.
25 Q. Can you read that whole sentence to us please?

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1 A. "I quickly understood that the motorcycle could have
2 been implied in the collision and that its rider was
3 trying to get away from the place."
4 MR KEEN: Thank you, Madame Peyret. I have no further
5 questions.
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Horwell?
7 MR HOUGH: No, sir.
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Any further questions, Mr Hough?
9 MR HOUGH: No, sir. Thank you very much, Madame Peyret.
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you, Madame Peyret. We are
11 very grateful.
12 I think that is the totality of the evidence that we
13 have available this afternoon. There is a strike
14 I think in France tomorrow afternoon, which means that
15 there will be no opportunity for hearing evidence from
16 France.
17 That is right, is it, Mr Hughes?
18 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: Yes, it is. That is right, yes.
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: So we resume contact with France
20 on Monday.
21 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: Monday at 10.30.
22 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you very much. 9.30 our
23 time; 10.30 your time. So we can break the connection
24 now.
25 The remaining witness is from the west coast of

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1 America and I think he is scheduled to give evidence at
2 4 o'clock, which is quite early in the morning for him.
3 MR HOUGH: It is early in the morning for him. Any earlier
4 would have been uncivilised.
5 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Members of the jury, 4 o'clock, a
6 longer break, but I'm afraid it will be a rather late
7 evening tomorrow. If you would not mind leaving now,
8 there is one matter I want to raise with counsel which
9 is not of direct concern to you at the moment, so I will
10 use the time to deal with that.
11 (Jury out)
12 Discussion re submissions
13 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: The matter I wish to raise at
14 this stage is submissions in relation to reading
15 evidence of witnesses whose evidence is disputed, but
16 who, for one reason or another, are not able to come to
17 court --
18 MR HOUGH: Yes, sir.
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: -- or not willing to come to
20 court.
21 I have had submissions on behalf of everybody who
22 wishes to put in written submissions on this question,
23 but I understand that some counsel, at any rate, would
24 wish to make oral submissions. Obviously the ideal time
25 to do that would be when there is a gap in the evidence

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1 that cannot otherwise be filled.
2 MR HOUGH: Yes, and obviously there is also a desire to have
3 that point resolved so that controversial evidence which
4 is going to be read because, for example, witnesses
5 cannot be traced or secured -- so that that evidence can
6 be read at convenient times, when difficulties of
7 scheduling arise.
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: It seems to me that there are two
9 aspects to this. The first is that there is an issue in
10 principle as to what the right approach is to deal with
11 such evidence, and secondly, there may be issues in
12 individual cases. It may be argued that the witness's
13 evidence should not be read for some reason or another
14 which may have some relation to the reason why
15 the witness did not come to court in the first place.
16 But we will have to deal with that on an ad hoc basis,
17 it seems to me.
18 MR HOUGH: Yes, sir.
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: What I had in mind was that
20 tomorrow would be an ideal opportunity to resolve
21 the issue in principle. I do not want to bounce this on
22 counsel if they are not ready to make submissions; on
23 the other hand, we want to use up the time profitably.
24 MR HOUGH: I should say, for those who have not been
25 receiving the interesting sets of written submissions,

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1 that the issues of principle are relatively narrow.
2 I hope they will not take too much time because there is
3 a great deal of common ground about the practicalities.
4 But I will leave it for others to address you further.
5 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes, Mr Mansfield.
6 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, others will be developing this. Could
7 I raise one particular point and make it clear? I have
8 difficulties tomorrow and I would like to be present for
9 this particular day. It is the only day for the next
10 six months. I am in the Court of Appeal just round
11 the corner.
12 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: All day?
13 MR MANSFIELD: Well, that depends on how I am received.
14 MR HORWELL: All day!
15 MR MANSFIELD: It is a five-man court, if I can put it like
16 that.
17 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Five-person court.
18 MR MANSFIELD: Well, as I understand it, it is male.
19 However, the position is that it may be resolved by
20 lunchtime, I do not know. There is another matter which
21 is a precursor to all of this, which we have spoken
22 about, and that is prior to the development of oral
23 argument on the principles, there is another matter
24 which needs to be resolved; the matter is plainly what
25 is happening in France, particularly obviously

55

1 the powers of the "juge", what they are and how they are
2 to be enforced, because we were led to believe at one
3 stage that there was cooperation forthcoming from the
4 French authorities and that they were able or willing,
5 obviously both, to ensure the presence of witnesses as
6 far as they could.
7 At the moment -- well, we discussed it about
8 two hours ago and, as we understand it, that has to be
9 inquired into. We did not have answers as to what that
10 was. I think that sort of information would need to
11 come before we could develop any oral arguments.
12 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I am not quite clear how that
13 affects the issue of principle.
14 MR MANSFIELD: I appreciate how, in a sense, the two overlap
15 because one of the preconditions in relation to
16 certainly 37, and possibly the exercise of discretion as
17 far as hearsay is concerned, is of course
18 the availability of a witness. Certainly that applies
19 to section 37 or rule 37, rather, because of the -- and
20 I do not pre-empt the discussion over the meaning of
21 either "not present" in subsection 4 or "unable to be
22 present" or "unavailable". Those words would have to
23 be --
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: If it is of any assistance to
25 everybody to know how my mind is working at the moment

56

1 on this --
2 MR MANSFIELD: It would, yes.
3 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: It is certainly far from
4 concluded, but it may help to see how I see it. If
5 there is a power to admit the evidence at common law,
6 then it may not be very profitable to start exploring
7 the technicalities of rule 37.
8 If the evidence can be admitted at common law, then
9 it is admitted at common law and obviously the court
10 would have a discretion first of all as to hearing
11 the evidence at all, and, secondly, what should be said
12 to the jury about it, in individual cases.
13 That is the first point. The second point is that,
14 as is probably apparent, in the particular circumstances
15 of these inquests, taking a pretty liberal view about
16 evidence that the court and the jury ought to hear,
17 bearing in mind that one of the purposes of the inquests
18 is to confirm or allay public suspicion, and that that
19 fairly liberal view would be that I would be minded to
20 apply that to the introduction of evidence from
21 witnesses who were unable to attend, provided they
22 really were unable or unwilling to attend and every
23 effort had been made to get them to attend.
24 MR MANSFIELD: I think it is that last number of words, the
25 proviso. It is really inquiries into that proviso.

57

1 I appreciate that is a matter of practicality rather
2 than principle, but it would be important as a matter of
3 principle to discover what the procedures are that are
4 being pursued in France at the moment, because there is
5 in fact a whole block of witnesses --
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I realise that. We are as
7 anxious as you are to get them here.
8 MR MANSFIELD: Well, I do not need to develop it further.
9 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: The only other point I would make
10 is that, as I think everybody appreciates, there is no
11 power that I have to compel a witness to give evidence
12 who is not in this country. The French may exercise all
13 kinds of powers to get them to the videolink centre in
14 the Court of Appeal, but unless I am persuaded
15 otherwise, once they have got them there, I cannot force
16 them to give evidence.
17 MR MANSFIELD: We accept that. In fact there was an example
18 of that two days ago.
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
20 MR MANSFIELD: It is more what are the powers that are being
21 exercised at the moment --
22 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: -- and are they doing all they
23 can.
24 MR MANSFIELD: Yes.
25 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We will try to give you answers

58

1 to that question.
2 MR MANSFIELD: Because if it is possible, we would
3 appreciate answers to those questions before we launch
4 the principle arguments. That is the only point I am
5 making at the moment.
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Does anyone else want to have any
7 input into this?
8 MR KEEN: Perhaps, sir, just to elaborate slightly on
9 the point made by my learned friend.
10 It is still not clear to the interested persons
11 precisely what process has been followed with regard to
12 the witnesses in France and in particular whether
13 the French authorities have acknowledged a letter of
14 request and, therefore, put onto a formal footing
15 the process of assistance that they are giving, and
16 whether, in that event, there is a process, in light of
17 that letter of request, whereby under the French Civil
18 Code they can formally cite persons to attend at
19 the video-conference facilities in France.
20 That leads on to an issue of whether we are dealing
21 with witnesses who are unable to attend to give evidence
22 in response to such a citation or whether we are dealing
23 with witnesses who are unwilling to give evidence.
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Both, I suspect.
25 MR KEEN: Well, in my respectful submission, it will be

59

1 important as a matter of principle, both in the context
2 of rule 37 and in the context of applying the common
3 law, to understand a distinction between those who are
4 unable and those who are unwilling to attend. As
5 regards the former, in my submission, the interested
6 persons would reasonably wish to know what precise
7 efforts are made to trace witnesses because we did have
8 recent examples during the visit to Paris where
9 informally we were asked if we knew the whereabouts of
10 certain individuals who it transpired had not been
11 approached during the past ten years at all.
12 Accordingly, sir, I would respectfully suggest that
13 your counsel may want to set out a further clear and
14 precise precis of what the position is with regard to
15 letters of request as regards French domestic law and as
16 regards precise measures that have been taken to trace
17 witnesses in order that we can have two distinct lists,
18 those who are unable to attend and those who are simply
19 unwilling to attend.
20 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes. Of course, as far as
21 the unwilling to attend witnesses are concerned, the
22 process is ongoing of trying to get them brought to
23 court and, if they don't turn up on one occasion, then
24 I think the French will take steps to summons them on
25 another occasion.

60

1 MR KEEN: I might infer that from the fact that the diary
2 that we have is constantly changing, but unfortunately
3 the interested persons have no insight and no
4 information as to what is going on in this regard and it
5 would be of assistance if we could be kept informed.
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I am not sure that we are a great
7 deal wiser because we make the letter of request and
8 it is really a matter for the French to deal with it,
9 but we will endeavour to get you some more information
10 MR KEEN: No doubt someone will have some insight into what
11 the French Civil Code has to say on this matter as
12 regards persons within the jurisdiction of the French
13 Republic.
14 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Croxford?
15 MR CROXFORD: Can I add my twopennor'th. You will have
16 noticed that I was not here last week -- I was having
17 rather a difficult time in the Court of Appeal --
18 the consequence of which was that mercifully I missed
19 most of this rule 37 debating on paper and I have only
20 had to come in and pick it up this week. If I may say
21 so, for once I have guessed at judicial thinking rightly
22 because the observation you have just made about your
23 present impression and the use of the common law power
24 seemed to me to be the way that the argument seemed to
25 be going. If I may say so, the use of the common law

61

1 power was bound to be replete with the exercise of some
2 sort of discretion.
3 The point that has been exercising me -- and really
4 I am echoing what has been said already but in
5 a slightly different form -- is that, as we understand
6 it, the process which you either can embark upon or
7 I suspect, with respect, have embarked upon is that you
8 issue a letter of request to the French authorities that
9 they secure the attendance of X, Y and Z to give
10 evidence.
11 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
12 MR CROXFORD: The response of the French authorities is then
13 the significant next step. If they accept your letter
14 of request and say that they will act upon it, then, as
15 we understand it, the French do then have power to
16 compel the attendance at the court in Paris of the
17 requisite witness. In those circumstances, my Lord, if
18 they have not turned up on one occasion, like the
19 witness this morning, for our part we would be pretty
20 surprised if the French authorities are unable to secure
21 the attendance of those witnesses on subsequent
22 occasions. I think there have been other examples
23 already, Partouche and so forth.
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
25 MR CROXFORD: Because they can secure their attendance at

62

1 the court in Paris, we would, with the greatest of
2 respect, have assumed that your approach, as exhibited
3 so far during this inquest, would be that they should at
4 least be brought to the court so that they can either
5 plead the fifth, as Mrs Levistre effectively sought to
6 do the other day, or, when faced with the mastermind
7 chair in the court, they can decide they will sit down
8 and answer the questions.
9 If I may say so as well, we formed the distinct
10 impression the other day that the French magistrate
11 thought that they seemed to expect that the witness
12 would go into the chair and answer the questions.
13 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I am conscious that I have
14 limited powers and it would be quite wrong to exercise
15 powers I do not have.
16 MR CROXFORD: It is entirely my fault. You have very
17 limited powers, with respect, sir, but once the French
18 authorities have taken up the baton and they accept that
19 in answer to your letter of request they will compel
20 the attendance of the witness in France, what is
21 certainly not clear to us is that the power which they
22 are exercising ceases at the moment the witness attends
23 at court.
24 Our impression is that the power that they are
25 exercising in answer to your request is, one, to say,

63

1 "Go into that chair, now listen to the questions and
2 answer them". With the greatest of respect -- and this
3 is the point we raised with my learned friend
4 Mr Hilliard earlier in the day -- it is important to
5 understand that sequence of request, acceptance of the
6 request by the authorities, and then what it is the
7 French do when issuing their citation, as I understand
8 it is called, and then to understand how you might fall
9 to exercise any common law discretion because if
10 the correct analysis is that the French authorities,
11 once they are exercising powers -- and with respect, it
12 matters not at all then whether you have power, you
13 don't, the question is whether they have power -- when
14 in exercising their powers, they can secure the
15 attendance of the witness at the court and to answer
16 questions, that would clearly be material to the
17 exercise of your discretion.
18 I would say with the greatest of respect, having
19 come into this with an unusually and not uniquely, but
20 unusually empty mind earlier this week and looking at
21 this issue, it does seem to me that it would be
22 sensible, with the greatest of respect, to have that
23 factual legal position ironed out before ever you try to
24 invite counsel to address the debate about what should
25 happen over rule 37 of common law discretion.

64

1 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I am still not really convinced
2 that it affects the position in principle. It may
3 affect the exercise of discretion and so forth, but
4 I think probably it would be advisable not to hear
5 the detailed argument tomorrow, but to get the answer to
6 these questions first, if that is what the majority of
7 people want.
8 MR CROXFORD: It makes me very pleased to know, and also
9 because it then assists us to know what has happened to
10 the witnesses who have dropped off the list so far and
11 the expectation that eventually we will be told that
12 they will come back on to the list.
13 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We cannot let this point run too
14 far because otherwise we will run out of time with the
15 French authorities. We really do want to get a decision
16 on this within the next week or so. I am sure we will
17 have other days that will go short.
18 MR CROXFORD: From where we sit, we can foresee, sir, that
19 you may have concerns about particular individuals or
20 even groups of witnesses in the coming days who may be
21 very much in the frame in respect of this, but in
22 respect of those witnesses, if they can be compelled to
23 attend, it may be that the problem is unlikely to be
24 a real one.
25 Well, sir, if we could know whether they can be

65

1 compelled to attend and then whether the French
2 authorities --
3 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I have the point. We will ...
4 Mr Hough, I think --
5 MR HOUGH: Sir, this point was raised with myself and
6 Mr Hilliard today. I make no criticism of my learned
7 friends for that because the point was illustrated
8 earlier in the week. I raised the point with Mr Smith,
9 secretary to the inquest. He will make the appropriate
10 enquiries. I cannot undertake that the answers will be
11 forthcoming tomorrow morning because he may have to ask
12 the French authorities for some information.
13 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I cannot say, with enormous
14 confidence, that we will get a quick answer from
15 the French authorities. They have quite a lot on their
16 plate.
17 MR HOUGH: And they have been enormously helpful so far.
18 Like you, sir, I tend to the view that the
19 submissions of principle could in any event be made, but
20 I understand my learned friends' concerns. We will get
21 the information as soon as possible.
22 In the meantime, perhaps they could ready themselves
23 to have the argument at any point next week, with
24 reasonable notice after that information has been
25 provided.

66

1 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
2 MR HOUGH: Thank you, sir.
3 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Satisfied, Mr Mansfield?
4 MR MANSFIELD: Thank you very much indeed.
5 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Keen?
6 MR KEEN: Yes, sir, of course.
7 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Croxford?
8 MR CROXFORD: Taken under advisement, sir.
9 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Well, we will resume at 4 o'clock
10 then.
11 (2.37 pm)
12 (A short break)
13 (4.25 pm)
14 (Jury present)
15 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Sorry for the delay, members of
16 the jury, but we have overcome the problems in America
17 and I now call Mr Anderson.
18 THE CLERK OF THE COURT: Mr Anderson, if you could take
19 the affirmation and repeat after me, please?
20 MR BRIAN CAREY ANDERSON (affirmed)
21 Questions from MR BURNETT
22 (Evidence via videolink)
23 MR BURNETT: Now, Mr Anderson, I hope you can now see me.
24 My name is Ian Burnett and I am counsel to the Coroner
25 and shall be asking you questions in the first instance

67

1 this afternoon, as it is for us here.
2 Is your full name Brian Carey Anderson?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And you live in the United States, on the west coast?
5 A. I am sorry, you are breaking -- I did not hear
6 the question in its complete state, I am sorry.
7 Q. Don't worry, I will try again. You live in the United
8 States of America on the west coast?
9 A. I believe the question was I live in the United States
10 on the west coast.
11 Q. That is correct.
12 A. I beg the court's pardon, but we are having a difficult
13 communication capability here.
14 Q. We can hear you perfectly. Can you hear me now a little
15 better?
16 A. I can hear you now a little better.
17 Q. Well, I shall hope that the technicians can continue to
18 improve on the sound quality, but could you let us know
19 if any difficulty arises?
20 A. I am hearing, sir, approximately every third word you
21 are saying. I am not sure if there are microphone
22 compression problems on your end or just a bad
23 transmission signal here. Maybe I should get
24 the technician in from the other room to maybe observe
25 for a couple of minutes to see if it is on this end.

68

1 Q. I suspect that that would be helpful, if you could do
2 it, Mr Anderson.
3 A. I will sir. One moment, please. (Technician fetched)
4 I do not know if you heard his comments.
5 Q. We did, with clarity, which is why I am surprised you
6 can't hear mine. I am not sure who, technically, is
7 dealing with it at this end.
8 THE TECHNICIAN: I can email London and see if there is
9 anything they can do.
10 A. What we are getting is very choppy, like a 55K line type
11 of signal.
12 Mr Burnett, I will try to do the best I possibly can
13 while the colleague -- the associate here emails your
14 colleagues.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 We have technicians who are looking after it at our
17 end who I hope are working on it now. Are you alone in
18 the room or do you have anyone with you, Mr Anderson?
19 A. I have my attorney, Mr Bruce Burke, sitting to my right,
20 which would be your left, off camera.
21 Q. Thank you. Can I first establish the previous
22 statements that you have made in connection with this
23 case?
24 It is correct, is it not, that on 30th and
25 31st August 2004, you made a long statement of 31 pages

69

1 to the British police?
2 A. I recall that. Yes, Mr Burnett, I recall that
3 statement.
4 Q. I think you have a copy of that statement available to
5 you.
6 A. I do, sir.
7 Q. You made, I think, a second statement on 10th March 2005
8 which consisted of seven or eight pages, and again,
9 I hope you have that available to you.
10 A. I do, sir. I have that as well.
11 Q. You were also interviewed on 7th October 2006, again by
12 the British police. Once again, that should be
13 available to you.
14 A. I have that as well, Mr Burnett, yes.
15 Q. Now, it is right, is it not, that you have given
16 a number of media interviews in connection with the
17 events that we are concerned with?
18 A. I am sorry? I am terribly sorry. The only thing
19 I heard you say was "concerned ... media ... events".
20 Q. Alas you needed a little more than that to understand
21 the question. You have given interviews to the media on
22 five occasions in connection with these events?
23 A. I do not recall the exact number, but I would not
24 dispute that. I am sure you have accurate information.
25 Q. Could we quickly look at the fourth page of

70

1 the statement of 10th March 2005, please?
2 A. I have that, sir.
3 Q. Do you see in the third paragraph a sentence beginning,
4 "I have been asked how many interviews I have
5 provided ..."?
6 A. I do see that, sir.
7 Q. Would you be good enough to read out the whole of that
8 paragraph to the jury here, please?
9 A. Yes, of course:
10 "I have been asked how many interviews I have
11 provided to the media in total and the sequence in which
12 they were provided. From the best of my recollection,
13 there were five. The interview with David Jackson at
14 the airport in France was the first, the interview in
15 Seascape with ABC News was the second, the interview in
16 Mountainview California third, the interview with
17 Catherine Heenan of NBC News in Los Gatos was fourth and
18 the interview with Dan Rather, CBS, was fifth and last.
19 The interview with Heenan was sold without my authority
20 to several studios that used the footage as if I was
21 providing them with the interview. This was the subject
22 of legal action against Heenan on my behalf. I have
23 been asked whether I have received any payment for [that
24 is a typo] providing these interviews. I have been
25 offered money but have always refused to take it."

71

1 Q. Thank you.
2 A. You are welcome.
3 Q. We don't have available to us any records of interviews
4 that you gave to the French police, although your
5 evidence is that you saw the French police on three
6 occasions.
7 A. That is correct, yes.
8 Q. You are aware, I am sure, that the French police dispute
9 that and say that they did not ever interview you?
10 A. I was told that by Detective Sergeant Adrian Grater,
11 I believe in October of last year. That was the first
12 I was made aware of that.
13 Q. So, whatever the position may be, we don't have the
14 benefit of any early account that you gave to the French
15 police.
16 A. I am sorry, you will have to repeat that again. I just
17 heard "French police" and "benefit".
18 Q. Whatever the position, we don't have any records of
19 interviews that you had in the early days with
20 the French police.
21 A. That was not my understanding, but again, okay. It was
22 my understanding or I was under the impression that
23 information was obtained and, in fact, there is a letter
24 in the pack that was sent to me by Martin Smith, from
25 Martin -- I believe his name was Mr Mules. I can locate

72

1 that if you give me a second. (Pause) If that is
2 critical --
3 Q. Let me see if I can help you, Mr Anderson.
4 I think you are referring to a statement from
5 Mr Mules where he summarises a media interview that you
6 gave in September 1997. Is that the one that you have
7 in mind?
8 A. I am not sure, Mr Burnett. Would you give me a chance
9 to look at it, quickly, please?
10 Q. Of course.
11 A. No, the document I am looking at, sir, does not say
12 anything about a media interview. It is dated
13 16th October 1997. Is that the same document that you
14 are referring to?
15 Q. No, that is a different one. Does it say this,
16 Mr Anderson? It is from Major Mules and it says:
17 "Report that today Mr Bruno Sylvestre, head of the
18 Paris office of ABC News [and the address is given]
19 informs us of the telephone number of witness
20 Brian Anderson, an American businessman in the USA ...",
21 and then a telephone number is given.
22 A. And then there is a secondary paragraph there?
23 Q. "Through the journalists on the spot, it was requested
24 that this witness be contacted to ask that on his next
25 visit to Paris, he contact the section."

73

1 That is the document, is it?
2 A. That is the same document that I have.
3 Q. I am simply trying to establish -- and tell me if I have
4 this right -- that there is no contemporaneous record of
5 an interview given by you to the Paris police?
6 A. I am not aware of that.
7 Q. You don't have one in your possession?
8 A. Do I have one in my possession?
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. No, I never received anything from the French
11 authorities.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 Now I am going to ask one or two questions that are
14 being asked of all witnesses. You have already read to
15 us a paragraph from your statement saying that you were
16 not paid for the interviews that you gave in 1997. Have
17 you received payment or reward from anyone in connection
18 with giving an account of the events of the 30th and
19 31st August 1997?
20 A. From the media?
21 Q. From anyone.
22 A. Anyone? No, sir.
23 Q. Are you expecting any payment or reward from anyone in
24 the future?
25 A. I cannot tell what the future holds for me, sir. Not at

74

1 this point in time.
2 Q. You are not expecting it at the moment?
3 A. I am not expecting anything at the moment of benefit
4 from this.
5 Q. Can I take you then back to the events in Paris in
6 August 1997? Can I ask you a few uncontroversial
7 questions to start with?
8 A. Please.
9 Q. I think you worked for a company called MADGE Networks.
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. And you worked in a consultancy capacity, providing
12 assistance and advice to a number of their operations
13 across the world?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. In that connection, you were in Paris at the end of
16 August 1997?
17 A. I was there at that time, yes.
18 Q. You arrived in Paris on 22nd and 23rd August, is that
19 right?
20 A. I would take your word for that. I do not have that
21 information in front of me.
22 Q. In any event, it was a few days before the crash that we
23 are concerned with?
24 A. Yes, it was.
25 Q. Eventually you left Paris on 10th September and returned

75

1 to -- did you not hear that?
2 A. I did not.
3 Q. I will try again.
4 A. Mr Burnett, do you have a video signal of me?
5 Q. I can see you moving and I can hear you perfectly.
6 A. I can see you, but it is delayed, so if I do not hear
7 the question, I will raise my hand rather than continue
8 to interrupt you. My apologies for that.
9 Q. There is a slight delay at this end as well, but that is
10 always the case with videolink.
11 Did you leave Paris on 10th September and return to
12 the United States, to San Francisco?
13 A. Yes, I believe so. That is the day.
14 Q. Now, I would like to ask you about Saturday 30th August.
15 I think your evidence is that you got up relatively late
16 in the hotel in which you were staying.
17 A. 10 o'clock approximately. So, yes, if you consider that
18 late, yes.
19 Q. I think in fact it was your language in your statement.
20 I am not casting any aspersions.
21 A. I took advantage of it being a weekend, sir.
22 Q. You were staying at the Hotel Aubusson in Rue Dauphine?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. We will come back in a moment and identify where that
25 is. Can you remember what you intended to do on that

76

1 Saturday and, in particular, where you were intending to
2 have dinner?
3 A. I was invited to a colleague's home outside of Paris, in
4 Chelles, the home of Mr and Mrs Pascal Ozanne, and I had
5 a few errands that I needed to do, some pressing,
6 laundry, things of that nature, a few shopping stops
7 along the way, a lunch, a walk, and then I got on the
8 train and went out to Chelles, to Pascal and Marilyn's
9 home.
10 Q. Did you make contact with Pascal Ozanne in the morning
11 on that day?
12 A. I think it was in the morning, it was after I awoke and
13 got in my day a little bit. I remember I did call him
14 and speak to him just to confirm which train to get on
15 and approximately what time to arrive.
16 Q. Did you use your hotel telephone or some other phone to
17 call him?
18 A. I believe I used the phone in the hotel. I believe that
19 was my statement to Detective Sergeant Grater. Again,
20 I do not -- I do not recall exactly, but I think I used
21 the hotel phone.
22 Q. Now we have records from the hotel phone, again which
23 I hope you have available to you.
24 A. I believe I do, yes.
25 Q. I wonder if these might be provided to the jury, please.

77

1 For others, it is [INQ0002326 - not for publication].
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Do you have the page number in
3 the big bundle?
4 MR BURNETT: 163, sir.
5 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Where about is this going into
6 the jury bundle?
7 MR BURNETT: Tab 5, sir.
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Tab 5, document 5.
9 MR BURNETT: Thank you.
10 I think it is there somewhere, Mr Anderson.
11 A. I am sorry.
12 Q. Don't worry.
13 A. I have got it.
14 Q. This is a --
15 A. I am with you, sir --
16 Q. Don't worry, I know it is difficult with so many bits of
17 paper.
18 This is on one sheet of paper and perhaps if we can
19 just -- I will try again.
20 A. Thank you.
21 Q. One sheet of paper. Can we look at it together just to
22 establish what each entry comprises? At the top, we see
23 "Chambre 0306", so that is the room you were staying in.
24 Do you see that?
25 A. Yes, I see that.

78

1 Q. Then "M Anderson".
2 A. Right.
3 Q. Then, looking at the first entry by way of example,
4 we see a number, the beginning of a telephone number,
5 don't we?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. Now, that one is "1140868 ..." followed by other digits,
8 yes.
9 A. Two Xs, yes.
10 Q. Am I right in thinking that numbers which begin "11" are
11 United States numbers?
12 A. I would suspect that to be correct, yes.
13 Q. If one looks down the list quickly, we can see many
14 calls to US numbers.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Then moving across the columns, we see "Hour" and
17 "Minute". The first call there is 17 hours and
18 16 minutes and then the seconds. Then in the next
19 column you see the date on which the call was made. Do
20 you see the first one is 26/08 and then, of little
21 interest at least to me, the taxes that were charged on
22 the call. Do you see --
23 A. Those are very illegible on this sheet. I will take
24 your word for it. The copy is not very clean and
25 legible. The three columns to the right, "sec", "date",

79

1 "taxes" are not very clear, so I will take your word for
2 it.
3 Q. I am just asking a question of our technical people, if
4 you would bear with me. We are able to pull it up on
5 the screen.
6 A. It is much clearer there, sir.
7 Q. Is it on the screen in front of you?
8 A. It is.
9 Q. Fabulous.
10 So we can see that much more clearly. I think the
11 second column in from the end I had identified that
12 the date appears and the first one is 26th August. All
13 right. Can we go down, please, to the bottom of the
14 first column?
15 Can we just look at the third full entry from
16 the bottom? The bottom entry is one that is quite
17 important that we will come to later, but the third full
18 entry, we see a number there, "1140868" and then "XX".
19 Do you recognise that number?
20 A. 40868, is that the one? I mean, I recognise -- the "11"
21 is the country code for the United States, the "408"
22 would be an area code in San Jose, the central part of
23 California at that time. The "68", I cannot -- I do not
24 know what that could be. I have had this conversation
25 with Detective Sergeant Grater and it could be either

80

1 a home number, it could be my dial-up number for my
2 computer. I do not know. I cannot say for sure without
3 having the remaining digits.
4 Q. At any event, we see that that call was made at 01 hours
5 18 minutes on 30th August. So that is in the
6 early hours of the morning on the Saturday.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now the next entry, 06074046XX, is 11.49 on the Saturday
9 morning. Now is that the call to Pascal, do you think?
10 A. I would think that it could be speculated that it is,
11 but again without -- I do not know what the XX numbers
12 are.
13 Q. But "06" is Paris.
14 A. 06, if I am not mistaken, is a Parisian cellphone
15 number; correct?
16 Q. That is certainly my understanding.
17 A. So that would make sense. I think so. Perhaps yes.
18 I am sorry, I wish I could be more definite, but I do
19 not know.
20 Q. At any event, that would appear to be the first call
21 that you made from the hotel phone after getting up that
22 morning.
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Well now, moving on then, you were going to have dinner
25 with Pascal Ozanne and his family, who you have told us

81

1 lived a little bit outside the centre of Paris, I think
2 at a place called Chelles; is that correct?
3 A. That is correct, sir.
4 Q. You got there by taking the underground or the subway,
5 the RER line, and I think he met you at the RER station
6 and drove you to his house.
7 A. That is correct. He picked me up there.
8 Q. And that is to the south-east of Paris, I think.
9 A. I am not really great on directions. I know it is in
10 the same direction as EuroDisney or Disney Paris, so if
11 that is south-east, I think so, yes.
12 Q. It might not be. Let us leave it there for the moment.
13 You had dinner with him, his family and friends,
14 I think?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. During the course of that evening, Mr Anderson, are you
17 able to recollect how much alcohol you drank?
18 A. I do not believe I drank very much, maybe a glass or two
19 of champagne before dinner, and I think Pascal may have
20 opened one or two bottles of wine during the dinner. I
21 think that is it. I do not really exactly recall, but
22 I know I was not in any way over the top or
23 incapacitated or even close to that at all.
24 Q. In any event, there was no question that you would be
25 driving because you don't drive or you did not at that

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1 time drive in Paris at all?
2 A. I did not at that time have a car, no, but I had driven
3 in Paris before, yes.
4 Q. The time came for you to go back to Central Paris. How
5 did you undertake that journey?
6 A. I offered to take the train back. Pascal refused and
7 said he would drive me into the Porte, into Paris, from
8 his home. He said it would take maybe 15/20 minutes at
9 the most. He drove me in and we went into the city,
10 just a tiny little bit, there by the prison, an old
11 prison I think it is. We stopped, passed in, pulled
12 over and I flagged down a cab. I got in a cab and
13 proceeded on my way and he went back to his home,
14 presumably. I believe that is where he went.
15 Q. I believe you said in your statement that that was at
16 Porte de Vincennes in the south-east of Paris.
17 A. That is correct, it was.
18 Q. And he dropped you there and then he went home?
19 A. He turned to go home. I assume he went home. I do not
20 know where Pascal went. I cannot swear under oath that
21 he went home, but I assume he went home. Since his wife
22 was about eight and three-quarter months' pregnant, he
23 better have gone home.
24 Q. In fact his baby daughter was born two days later and
25 you are her Godfather?

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1 A. That is correct, I am, proudly so.
2 Q. Are you able to remember roughly what time it was when
3 Pascal dropped you off at the station?
4 A. Well, I believe, if I refresh my memory from
5 the statement, because I know I have been asked that
6 question on, I am sure, numerous occasions, I tend to
7 think that it was around 11.30-ish in the evening.
8 Q. Mr Anderson, I do not want to trick you. Let me help
9 you with your statement. It is at page 4 of the long
10 statement.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. You do suggest about 11.30, but on other occasions you
13 have been less certain. Perhaps I will try to explain
14 to you why.
15 The accident or crash that we are concerned with,
16 which you came upon, took place at 23 minutes past
17 midnight, and if you got in a taxi at half past 11 at
18 Vincennes, it would have been an extraordinarily slow
19 drive to take 53 minutes to get to the site of the
20 crash. Are you with me?
21 A. I am.
22 Q. You have indicated, on other occasions, that the taxi
23 journey was a matter of minutes rather than tens of
24 minutes long, so I just wonder whether your recollection
25 about 11.30 can be right.

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1 A. You know, long drives seem to be a subject that this
2 court will be concerned with along the progress of its
3 investigation, I think, but my belief was -- again,
4 without looking at a watch, when I was asked I think
5 initially what time it was, it seemed that that was
6 about the time that we left Pascal's, at about 11.10,
7 I thought it was 11.10/11.15 and I thought that it took
8 us about 15/20 minutes to drive from Chelles to where he
9 waited to wave down a cab with me.
10 Again, we are going back in time, if I could be more
11 precise, I wish I could, but I still think that that
12 would be the approximate time that Pascal and I arrived
13 at Porte de Vincennes.
14 Q. A general point if I may. The statement that you have
15 in front of you, the 31-page statement, was made, as it
16 happens, exactly seven years after the events that we
17 are concerned with.
18 I am right in thinking, from the evidence that you
19 have given, that after giving the interviews in the
20 first days of the events, the first days after
21 the events, and then I think one interview a year later,
22 in between you had not discussed these events in detail
23 with anybody?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. So is it right, as a general proposition, that the

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1 detail of your memory seven years after the events is
2 unlikely to be as good as your memory days after
3 the events when you gave those interviews?
4 A. I think that that would be a fair and honest statement.
5 I think that it would also be important for yourself and
6 the court to understand that as a human being and
7 the magnitude of this event, tragedy, episode,
8 et cetera, I think that anybody can assimilate or hear
9 things that might sound like it makes sense to them
10 along the way. I have met with Detective
11 Sergeant Grater on a number of occasions and really
12 tried my hardest to be as accurate, unemotional and
13 direct and recall exactly what happened.
14 At 53 years old, I sometimes have trouble forgetting
15 what I ate two nights ago at dinner, so have I been
16 influenced? I should certainly hope not. Are there
17 things that, when I think about it clearly -- quite
18 honestly, I can probably think other interpretations of
19 things, but nothing material.
20 But back to the point in time, sir, I believe that
21 we arrived at Porte de Vincennes in and around the 11.30
22 timeframe, and it was not a long period of time until
23 Pascal waved and flagged a cab at the stand. We got
24 out, maybe spent five minutes exchanging goodbyes and
25 thank yous, et cetera, got in the car and proceeded on

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1 our way.
2 Q. Leaving aside the precise time that you were dropped off
3 at Vincennes, how long do you think the taxi journey was
4 before you got to the scene of the crash?
5 A. You know, that is a tough question because
6 mathematically you can work backwards, but to me it
7 seemed like it was 15/20 minutes; something of that
8 nature. Again, I was not -- I was not sitting counting
9 the time.
10 Q. Now, you have given a very close description of the taxi
11 driver who drove your car in the statement that we have
12 just been looking at. Do you have a clear recollection
13 of what he looked like and what he said to you at the
14 beginning?
15 A. I have a clear -- preface this answer by I received
16 these documents the day before yesterday and returned
17 home last evening and had a very short period of time to
18 look at and review them.
19 I do remember the cab driver was, at the time,
20 I thought, elderly. I have now reached his age,
21 approximately mid-50s. He was a little bit dishevelled.
22 He struck me as having -- and I believe I said kind of
23 Eastern European features.
24 I remember he was not cleanly shaved. As anybody
25 who does that for a living, I am sure a long day,

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1 a little bit dishevelled in his appearance. I think
2 that that is consistent with what I gave in my
3 statement.
4 Q. Can you remember what car the taxi was?
5 A. It was a Mercedes.
6 Q. The type --
7 A. A 300 class or similar to a 300 class four-door sedan.
8 Q. Where was it your intention to go when you set off on
9 this journey?
10 A. Initially my first intention was that I was going back
11 to my hotel, but I decided to go to a music club, a bar,
12 to hear some jazz and have a drink, and I directed
13 the cab driver to go there in my limited French
14 capabilities.
15 Q. Where was that bar situated in Paris?
16 A. I am not sure precisely of the street, but it is a few
17 doors away from the Crazy Horse, I believe on Boulevard
18 George V.
19 Q. And the Crazy Horse is a relatively well-known bar in
20 Paris, I think.
21 A. Thank you for being discreet.
22 Q. Could we possibly look at the plan on page 7
23 [INQ-JB1-0000007] of the bundle? You will get it on
24 your screen, Mr Anderson, with a little bit of luck. If
25 you look at your screen, Mr Anderson, can you now see

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1 a plan of the centre of Paris?
2 A. It is very difficult to read in the colour resolution,
3 but I can see it is a -- if I look closely, I can see
4 that it appears to be. You cannot read anything on it,
5 sir, but it appears, from the river orientation, to be
6 a plan of Paris.
7 Q. Now if I can just help you to orientate yourself.
8 Towards the left-hand side of the plan, do you see a red
9 dot with a box coming out of it saying "The Royal Alma
10 Hotel"?
11 Perhaps you could put the cursor on it.
12 A. Which hotel, sir?
13 Q. That is better.
14 A. That is better.
15 Q. You can see just underneath that, I hope,
16 Cours Albert 1er. Do you see that?
17 A. I cannot read it, sir, but I am familiar with the area.
18 Q. All right. That is the road along which you describe
19 the taxi as taking you and towards and through
20 the Alma Tunnel, which is directly ahead of you there.
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. The Avenue George V is the white road that runs
23 north/south immediately down to the Alma Bridge; do you
24 have it there, just being marked up?
25 A. I see it with elements around it at this point.

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1 Q. This was some way from your hotel, I think.
2 A. Not overly far.
3 Q. Can we just establish where that was? If we look at
4 plan 6 [INQ-JB1-0000006], we are going to need the east end of this plan,
5 focusing as best we can on the Ile de la Cite.
6 Now it may be very difficult for you to read this,
7 Mr Anderson, so forgive me if I point out where the
8 relevant position is. At the west end of the
9 Ile de la Cite, so that is the left end of the island,
10 you see Pont Neuf.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And running south from Pont Neuf is Rue Dauphine, and
13 it was in Rue Dauphine that the Hotel Aubusson was
14 situated?
15 A. Correct. I believe very close to Rue Dauphine and Rue
16 Christine.
17 Q. In fact, not that it matters, it is a little bit off
18 the bottom of the plan, but we get a clear idea of where
19 we were.
20 A. I disagree with you, sir. The hotel is not off the
21 bottom of the plan. If you are looking at Pont Neuf
22 running into Rue Dauphine, where the "U" appears on
23 "Dauphine" or the "A" appears on Dauphine, is
24 approximately where the Aubusson is located.
25 Q. Thank you.

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1 Now, if we could go back to plan 7, please? Just
2 have that available. You may not be able to help with
3 this, Mr Anderson, but if your taxi driver was driving
4 along Cours Albert 1er and wishing to drop you off in
5 Avenue George V, the most direct route would not have
6 taken him through the Alma Tunnel; he would have gone
7 off the road before then. Was that something you were
8 aware of at the time or did you just trust him to get
9 you there?
10 A. I trusted him to get me there. Pardon the expression,
11 but I have been taken for a ride many times in Paris
12 cabs and other cities. I knew from my hotel to where my
13 office was in Neuilly, approximate cost, and never --
14 very rarely would the cab go the same way and follow
15 the same route every morning to the office. So I really
16 did not give it any thought.
17 Q. At what sort of speed was the taxi driving along the
18 Cours Albert 1er, the expressway?
19 A. I believe -- I have given my estimation of the speed in
20 miles per hour to be perhaps in the 40/45/50 miles per
21 hour range.
22 Q. In general terms, was the road busy or quiet?
23 A. It was -- again, I was not really paying too much
24 attention in our direction, but there was not much
25 traffic at all. It was uniquely quiet.

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1 Q. Could you just turn to page 7 of your long statement
2 please? Could I ask you to look at the first sentence
3 of the big paragraph that starts on that page?
4 "I was not thinking about anything in particular and
5 I had been in the taxi maybe five or eight or nine
6 minutes in my estimation."
7 Do you see that?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. So I would just ask you to think about and tell us
10 whether you think that estimate is correct or the 15 to
11 20 minutes that you gave a moment ago.
12 A. It is so hard for me to say. I was not thinking --
13 I mean under the pressure that I am right now, I could
14 think -- it did not seem like an ordinarily long period
15 of time to me.
16 Q. Well, Mr Anderson --
17 A. It was not two or three minutes either, sir. So I am
18 sorry.
19 Q. Don't worry. Mr Anderson, I am not meaning to put you
20 under any pressure and forgive me if I am.
21 A. I do not think you are, sir. I think it is the entire
22 set of circumstances that everyone is involved with, is
23 looking for answers, and I wish I could be exact and
24 specific. It did not seem -- I was not -- I am not
25 the most patient person and I had not hit the point of

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1 "I want out of the cab".
2 Q. But is this perhaps an example of the real difficulty in
3 recollecting events in detail seven years afterwards,
4 when you made the statement, which is exacerbated now
5 that we are ten years after?
6 A. Well, sir, August 30th 1997, 10 o'clock at night, I had
7 no concept or idea that my life would be impacted, as
8 did you, by this event. So going back and trying to
9 reconstruct those things and overlay them into
10 a situation that is quite important to many people, I am
11 doing the best I can. I would agree with you that
12 perhaps some of the things that I tried to recollect
13 seven years after the event were lost as well.
14 Q. Well now, as you then were a passenger, I assume in
15 the back -- I have not asked you, but were you in
16 the back of the taxi?
17 A. I believed you asked me was a passenger and was I seated
18 in the back of the taxi.
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Yes I was, sir. Yes I was.
21 Q. Were you behind the driver or on the other side?
22 A. I was on the right side of the rear of the car.
23 Q. You have told us the traffic was very quiet, but
24 the time came where something attracted your attention.
25 A. Yes.

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1 Q. What was that?
2 A. An audio sound.
3 Q. Can you be more specific?
4 A. An engine, a high-performance engine sound.
5 Q. Where was it relative to your car? Was it in front of
6 you or behind you?
7 A. It was -- seemingly -- there was nothing in front of us
8 I could see visually, so the automatic assumption was
9 that it was behind me and increasing in volume.
10 Q. At that stage were you able to tell what sort of vehicle
11 it was?
12 A. Not at that immediate moment, no.
13 Q. Did any possibilities cross your mind?
14 A. I thought either a motorcycle or a high-performance car.
15 It had a pretty throaty -- pardon the expression -- but
16 for a motor afficionado, it had a very deep timbre and
17 sound to it, so I thought it could be a high performance
18 car or a motorcycle.
19 Q. Did it get louder or did it go away?
20 A. It got louder.
21 Q. Did you turn round and see what was coming?
22 A. Initially, if you can see me, I kind of looked just
23 quickly over my left shoulder, because we were in
24 the right lane, and really did not say anything, turned
25 back, and then the sound got louder, and then I saw

94

1 the motorcycle appear on my left side.
2 Q. Was it a motorcycle that you first saw or a car?
3 A. I believe I saw the car first.
4 Q. What did it do?
5 A. Passed us.
6 Q. Were you able to tell what sort of car it was?
7 A. Not at first, but I was -- I did notice that the car was
8 clean.
9 Q. What, and shiny?
10 A. Yes, it could reflect the light.
11 Q. Did you see any other vehicles at that point?
12 A. I am sorry?
13 Q. Did you see any other vehicles at that point?
14 A. You mean in front of me?
15 Q. Anywhere.
16 A. I saw the one motorcycle, and I believe at some point in
17 time I saw the secondary motorcycle, and then, yes --
18 and then I kind of gazed away at one point and saw vans,
19 or you would call them caravans; small lorries, I guess,
20 on the right side of -- parked across the abutment
21 kerb --
22 Q. In the service road they were parked, were they,
23 the road adjacent?
24 A. That is correct.
25 Q. Can we return to get your description of the motorcycles

95

1 then? You have mentioned two motorcycles. Can we start
2 with the first of them? The first motorbike that you
3 saw was where, relative to the Mercedes?
4 A. The first I would like to -- because this, even today,
5 is tough for me to keep straight, so I would like to
6 refer to my statement to make sure that I am -- excuse
7 me -- looking at the right -- but the first -- I want to
8 be sure that we are talking the same thing too.
9 The reason I am confused is because the sketch plans
10 that Detective Sergeant Grater did, he labelled them
11 a little bit convoluted, so motorbike number 3 was
12 the first motorcycle that I believe I saw.
13 Q. We will come to your sketch plan in a moment, but I am
14 trying to get a description of it from you. The first
15 motorbike you saw was where, relative to the Mercedes?
16 A. Behind it.
17 Q. Was it to one side or the other or directly behind it?
18 A. No, I believe it was to the left rear.
19 Q. How far from the Mercedes was that motorcycle?
20 A. It was rather close proximity. I think I estimated it
21 2 to 3 feet perhaps.
22 Q. What sort of speed were those vehicles travelling at?
23 A. I am sorry?
24 Q. What sort of speed were those vehicles travelling at?
25 A. The automobile and the motorcycle?

96

1 Q. Yes.
2 A. Again I remember being asked, and not being like a
3 physicist or an engineer, I estimated that they were
4 going maybe 20 to 25 per cent in excess of our speed.
5 Q. So we have one motorbike 2 feet from the back of the
6 Mercedes --
7 A. When I saw it, yes.
8 Q. When you saw it. Then you saw a second motorbike,
9 I think.
10 A. It came into my view, yes.
11 Q. Where did that come from?
12 A. The rear.
13 Q. Where was that relative to the Mercedes?
14 A. I believe it was towards the right rear side.
15 Q. What was it trying to do?
16 A. I do not know. It was -- it was not falling back, so
17 I would assume and speculate that it was trying to
18 overtake or get even or -- I do not know. I mean where
19 I come from that type of driving is very common, so I do
20 not know.
21 Q. Did it look as though it was trying to overtake the
22 Mercedes and the other motorbike that you have
23 described?
24 A. I would say that that would be a fair and accurate
25 statement.

97

1 Q. At that point did you make any observation to the taxi
2 driver?
3 A. Yes, and I will not verbatim repeat what I said, but
4 I alluded that the individual was not within his mental
5 facilities towards his driving capabilities.
6 Q. I do not think you need to be coy, Mr Anderson. You
7 were fairly explicit about his being crazy.
8 A. I was, but I do see a couple of ladies seated behind
9 you, so I will try to refrain from my exact language.
10 I do know you have it in my statement there.
11 Q. That was two motorbikes that you have mentioned. Was
12 there any other motorbike in the vicinity that you saw?
13 A. Yes. There was a third one that came upon the rear of
14 the car, all three of us -- a procession of vehicles
15 passed. I saw the third one a little bit further back.
16 Q. Did that pass the taxi as well?
17 A. They all three did, yes.
18 Q. Was that also very close to the rear of the Mercedes as
19 you remember it?
20 A. It was close, but not as close as the other ones, if
21 I recall correctly.
22 Q. In your statement you use a very graphic term, which
23 I will read to you:
24 "The bikes were in a cluster, like a swarm around
25 the Mercedes."

98

1 That is a very compelling image, if I may say so,
2 but that is how you remember it, is it?
3 A. Meaning that there were four moving objects in close
4 proximity and somewhat in concert in their movement
5 forward.
6 Q. Now you drew a sketch plan, I think, of this particular
7 moment. You have that in front of you. It is our
8 number 103 [INQ0000103]. Could be this provided to be
9 the jury to go into tab 6, behind the other plans
10 produced by various witnesses?
11 A. Again, it is illegible, sir. Are you going to put it on
12 the screen?
13 Q. Yes. We will hope to maximise it.
14 A. It is not much better.
15 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: This goes into the jury bundle as
16 number 6 of divider 5?
17 MR BURNETT: Page 6 of tab 5, sir.
18 This is not very clear for you, is it, Mr Anderson?
19 A. Not on the screen, sir, but I can make it out better in
20 the pack that was sent by Mr Smith.
21 Q. Well could we maximise the bottom right-hand corner?
22 A. That is clear. Thank you.
23 Q. Now "our car" speaks for itself. The car in the
24 left-hand lane looks as if you have written "MBZ" on it.
25 A. That is correct, sir.

99

1 Q. So that is the Mercedes?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Then the three motorbikes you have drawn really very
4 close to the tail of the Mercedes.
5 A. Yes, the perspective and the scale of the drawing.
6 I cannot make out -- "MCA" -- I cannot tell what that
7 says.
8 Q. It may not be very important, but my next question may
9 help you with that.
10 Can you remember how many people there were on each
11 of the Mercedes?
12 A. I did not see anyone in the Mercedes.
13 Q. I am so sorry; how many people there were on each
14 motorbike.
15 A. One motorbike had two people and -- boy, one motorbike
16 had two people and two, I believe, just had single
17 passengers, if I am not mistaken.
18 Q. At this point -- as you have said, this was driving
19 which you were used to in America, I think was
20 the language you used -- did your attention stay focused
21 on the car and the motorbikes or was it directed towards
22 anything else at this point?
23 A. I did not follow -- after they got past us and I could
24 see everything from the rear or from the front of our
25 car, I looked away to my right. I was not interested in

100

1 the traffic.
2 Q. What were you looking at on your right?
3 A. I think the buildings, the park or the trees that are
4 there; nothing in particular, I do not believe. Just it
5 seemed more interesting to me than another aggressive
6 driver and antics of people driving, you know, like
7 that.
8 Q. What happened next?
9 A. Well, what happened next, in series of events: I saw
10 a flash of light which again did not seem -- it did not
11 strike me at the time because it is where the
12 illumination of the boats takes place along the
13 buildings, but a pretty significant flash of light.
14 I heard a very loud bang, and then our car proceeded to
15 attempt to come to a very quick and abrupt stop.
16 Q. Can I take that in stages then?
17 A. Of course.
18 Q. You saw a flash of light and you have just mentioned the
19 boats on the river, the bateaux-mouches. Is that what
20 you thought the light had come from?
21 A. I guess. I was not registering any of this as to
22 sequential collection of information that would be
23 important in time. In retrospect, when it was first
24 posed to me what it was, it seemed that that seemed as
25 perhaps an obvious source of the light because of where

101

1 the boats take off from and/or cruise the river at that
2 point.
3 Q. Forgive me if I can just pause there. Without taking
4 you to it, you mention the bateaux-mouches, the pleasure
5 boats, as a possible source of the light you saw in
6 the second statement you made to the Metropolitan
7 Police; that is right, is it not?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. So you saw a flash of light. Can you just describe how
10 it came into your consciousness? Did you see where it
11 came from or did it come at you peripherally or how did
12 it happen?
13 A. I was looking to the right and I saw it towards --
14 illuminating from my left side, so in front -- I do not
15 know if you can see me because I am looking at
16 the diagram, but I will --
17 Q. We can.
18 A. Okay. So I was like this and a flash of light came from
19 this direction, so that the light would have flowed this
20 way (indicates). It did not come from my right, it did
21 not come from my right peripheral and it did not come
22 from behind me.
23 Q. So it came from in front of you and to the left is how
24 you would judge it?
25 A. Absolutely.

102

1 Q. Was this a flash of light that should have been obvious
2 to any pedestrians who were walking along this part of
3 the road?
4 A. I did not -- would you mind repeating it please?
5 Q. Was it a flash of light that should have been obvious to
6 any pedestrians walking along this road?
7 A. I would suspect so. I cannot -- I am not an
8 illumination expert, I cannot say. I do not know.
9 I would think so. It was quite bright.
10 Q. Were the antics of the motorcyclists such that that too
11 should have been obvious to anybody on foot in the
12 vicinity?
13 A. I do not know. I would think so.
14 Q. So you saw a flash coming from in front of you and to
15 the left. Does it, in your mind, tie up with it having
16 come from the river, which of course was to your left?
17 A. That is what I felt and said I think pretty
18 consistently. It was very bright.
19 Q. And coming from the direction of the river? Is that
20 what you are saying?
21 A. "It was coming from the direction of the river", is that
22 what you asked?
23 Q. That is my question, yes.
24 A. Yes, it came from that vicinity and that direction.
25 Q. Then you said to the jury that there was a loud

103

1 explosion.
2 A. Right.
3 Q. Did that happen immediately after the flash?
4 A. (indicating), like that. Flash -- can you see me?
5 Q. I can see you.
6 A. I am sorry. This is challenging for both of us.
7 Flash, explosion, audio noise -- maybe explosion
8 would be -- it was a very large noise that sounded like
9 an explosion.
10 Q. But there was no perceptible gap between the flash and
11 the explosion, is that what you are telling us?
12 A. What, you are asking was there a perceivable gap?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. So the flash, boom -- so, yes, there was a half
15 a second/a second between them in time.
16 Q. It is something, Mr Anderson, in a completely different
17 context we are all very familiar with. One sees
18 lightning and hears thunder a little bit later. If you
19 hear them at the same time, you are under the storm.
20 A. You are in trouble.
21 Q. So half a second to a second is your best estimate of
22 the gap between the two events?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. After the very loud explosion, as you have told us, what
25 then happened, first of all to your taxi?

104

1 A. We came to a rapid stop and I slipped forward in
2 the seat and saw an object passing in front of us and
3 hit the right side of the tunnel. I immediately turned
4 to see if there were cars coming up behind us that were
5 going to rear-end us.
6 Q. Was it in fact the Mercedes that you think you saw
7 moving across in front of you?
8 A. At the time, when I saw the object going in front of us,
9 it happened very quickly, I did not know what it was,
10 but I knew it was a large metal object, and when it came
11 to a rest and stopped, that is, yes, it was a black
12 Mercedes. Having not seen any other cars in front of
13 us, the last time that I had a frontal view out of the
14 windscreen and not seen any other cars pass us,
15 I deduced that it was the car that just passed us.
16 Q. How far ahead of you was that car when those events
17 happened?
18 A. I remember being asked this and I think that I estimated
19 anywhere from 40 to 100 yards. I do not recall exactly
20 what my response was in 2004, but I think -- I am not
21 sure. May I -- I think it was 40 to 100 yards.
22 Q. Well, can I see if I can approach this to get a number
23 of different distances from you.
24 Roughly how far from the mouth of the tunnel --
25 I will start again.

105

1 A. Please do.
2 Q. Roughly how far from the mouth of the tunnel did your
3 taxi come to a rest?
4 A. I would say 40 to 50 yards or so, perhaps.
5 Q. So that was before the tunnel?
6 A. Before the tunnel, yes.
7 Q. Are you able to help us with the distance you were from
8 the tunnel when the Mercedes went past you?
9 A. Do I recall how far I was when they went past us?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. It is really hard. Maybe 100 yards/150 yards, perhaps.
12 Something like that. I am more than -- I am not clear
13 of your question. When they passed us? When I stopped
14 looking away from them?
15 Q. When the Mercedes passed you and the motorbikes followed
16 it, roughly how far away from the tunnel were you?
17 A. Maybe 500/700 yards, I think. Something like that.
18 I really don't know. If I saw a diagram, I could be
19 more accurate.
20 Q. We will have a look at some pictures in a moment, but
21 does that mean that at the time they passed you, the
22 mouth of the tunnel was not in view?
23 A. The right corner could see it, so ...
24 Q. Could I ask that -- let us take page 38, please.
25 A. I do not have a 38.

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1 Q. Don't worry, it is going to come up on your screen,
2 Mr Anderson.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. It may be that these photographs do not really help you
5 very much, but I will just quickly take you through
6 a series of photographs which have a vehicle approaching
7 the tunnel. So this is 38 [INQ-JB1-0000038]. Could we go to 39 [INQ-JB1-0000039] next?
8 Could we maximise the right-hand side?
9 Can you see there that there is a sliproad coming on
10 from the right?
11 A. It is so hard to hear.
12 Q. I will try again.
13 A. I am sorry.
14 Q. Don't worry. It is something we will just have to
15 labour with.
16 Can you see that there is a sliproad coming on from
17 the right-hand side onto the expressway?
18 A. I am not familiar with the term. Do you mean
19 the entry-way there?
20 Q. Yes, I am so sorry. The entry-way from the right.
21 A. I can see that, yes.
22 Q. Then do you see the road turning to the left and going
23 down into the tunnel?
24 A. I can see the illumination of the tunnel, and in all
25 honesty, I am familiar with the road direction, so

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1 I know where it turns.
2 Q. Now when the Mercedes went past you, were you further
3 away from the tunnel than this photograph or nearer?
4 A. Do you see the third tree back from the right?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. We were approximately -- in the next frame, I believe
7 there would be one or two more trees -- that is
8 approximately the distance when the Mercedes passed.
9 What is that distance? I do not know. I really don't
10 know that distance.
11 Q. Well, we will be able to measure it from a plan, but
12 that gives us a very clear idea. Thank you.
13 Now could you turn to page 40 [INQ-JB1-0000040] or
14 metaphorically do so; we will bring it up.
15 Here we are much closer to the entrance to
16 the tunnel. You see the sliproad, as we call it, on the
17 right. When the taxi came to a rest, were you further
18 on from this?
19 A. Yes, I was.
20 Q. Going to page 41 [INQ-JB1-0000041] -- that one has not
21 come out very well.
22 A. I can tell you where we were from that.
23 Q. Can you do that for us please?
24 A. Can you see the dark line of demarcation of shadow that
25 crosses past the one -- you call it a sliproad.

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1 Q. Yes, beyond the dotted white lines.
2 A. You see one, two, three dotted white lines and then
3 there is a shadow line of demarcation right there. That
4 is approximately where we came to a stop.
5 Q. So if we go to page 42 [INQ-JB1-0000042], does that show the position
6 rather more clearly?
7 A. It is pretty close to the proximity, as far as I recall,
8 yes. I was just going to say the angle of the
9 perspective looks very familiar as to the perspective to
10 which I saw too.
11 Q. Now when you saw the Mercedes move across to the right,
12 was the taxi stopped or was it drawing to a halt?
13 A. It was not stopped.
14 Q. Does this photograph therefore illustrate reasonably
15 well from where you saw that happen, that is to say the
16 car moving across to the right?
17 A. I beg your pardon, would you ask me that again, please?
18 Q. Does this photograph show reasonably well where you were
19 in the taxi when you saw the car, the Mercedes, move
20 across in front of you to the right, towards the wall on
21 the right?
22 A. Yes, pretty -- very -- again, sir, that is my
23 recollection. It really is quite close.
24 Q. At that point, were you able to see the motorcycles?
25 A. No, I did not. I did not -- again, I was not focused on

109

1 the motorcycles. The next time I remember seeing
2 a motorcycle is when we went past the bar.
3 Q. I will come on to that in a moment. You have told us
4 that your taxi stopped fairly close to the entrance of
5 the tunnel.
6 A. Correct. I cannot tell from the scale of that
7 photograph, but I thought it to be a good strong sand
8 wedge(?) away.
9 Q. While you were stopped, did you see any of the
10 motorcycles anywhere in the tunnel?
11 A. While we were stopped? Behind the car I believe I saw
12 one of the motorcycles in front, which would now be the
13 rear of the Mercedes, but I do not believe I saw it
14 until we started going past the car.
15 Q. Was it upright or on its side, as far as you can
16 recollect?
17 A. I recollect it being down on its side.
18 Q. How long did your car, the taxi, remain stationary
19 before again moving?
20 A. It felt like ten years. It was not less than a minute;
21 you know, less than a minute.
22 Q. In that time did any cars pass you that you recollect?
23 A. Not that I recall, no.
24 Q. Did some people appear in the tunnel or go into
25 the tunnel?

110

1 A. The first people I saw came running from -- I do not
2 know if you can tell what I am pointing to, but it is
3 the centre white line.
4 Q. So they ran in from behind you, is that right?
5 A. No, no. They came -- I am sorry, I do not know if you
6 can tell -- so I am looking at the tunnel from the entry
7 point to which we traveled, and then you will see
8 the right wall, a centre line, which I have come to know
9