Hearing transcripts

17 January 2008 - Afternoon session

7 (The short adjournment)
8 (1.55 pm)
9 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Good afternoon, Mr Murrell. Can
10 you hear me?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes. Good afternoon.
12 (Jury present)
13 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes, I call Mr Murrell.
14 MR REUBEN GARETH MURRELL (affirmed)
15 (Evidence via videolink)
16 Questions from MR HOUGH
17 MR HOUGH: Is your name Ben Murrell?
18 A. My name is Reuben Gareth Murrell, commonly known as
19 Ben Murrell.
20 Q. Thank you. My name is Jonathan Hough and I am asking
21 you questions first on behalf of the Coroner.
22 I think you are in Nigeria, speaking by videolink,
23 and there will be a slight delay between you hearing us
24 and us hearing you.
25 A. Yes, that's correct.

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1 Q. Now, I think you were employed by the Al Fayed security
2 operation and based at the Villa Windsor in Paris in
3 1997.
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. You gave a statement, I think, to the Metropolitan
6 Police in April of 2006.
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. I think you also gave one or more interviews to The Sun
9 newspaper in August or September of 1998.
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. This is also a matter of public record. I think you
12 were paid £40,000 for your story.
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. Did you give any other interviews to the media or to
15 anybody else about these events?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Have you received or are you expecting in the future to
18 receive any other payment, other than the one I have
19 just mentioned, for your account of events?
20 A. No, I am not.
21 Q. Now, turning to your background, I think you served in
22 the Royal Marines from 1982 to 1995, leaving the forces
23 as a sergeant.
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. I think that in the Royal Marines you received close

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1 protection training; is that right?
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. On leaving the Marines, I understand that you began to
4 work for Mr Al Fayed's security organisation, under his
5 head of personal security, Paul Handley-Greaves.
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. In terms of your progress through that organisation,
8 I think you initially worked at the operations centre at
9 Park Lane.
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. You then worked as a bodyguard for one of Mr Al Fayed's
12 younger children.
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. Then in -- I think this is late 1996 -- you moved to be
15 the security officer at the Villa Windsor in Paris.
16 A. Yes, that's also correct.
17 Q. Just to ask for your comment on one matter. You say,
18 I think, that you applied for that post at the
19 Villa Windsor, whereas Mr Handley-Greaves has told the
20 police that you were moved there because of a discipline
21 problem. Can you comment on that briefly?
22 A. My recollection is that the former security officer
23 there left his job on medical grounds. I made it known
24 that I would like to be considered for that position to
25 Paul Handley-Greaves.

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1 Q. A couple of background questions about the Al Fayed
2 security operation. We have heard reference to the
3 operations centre as being a place from which family
4 movements and the movements of their security staff were
5 monitored and co-ordinated; is that right?
6 A. Yes, that's correct. There was a control room at most
7 dominant locations.
8 Q. We have also heard reference to a daily occurrence book,
9 a principal one, being kept in the Hyde Park premises
10 which recorded family movements and communications from
11 the security staff.
12 A. Yes, that is correct, yes.
13 Q. Do you think that all significant movements would have
14 been logged in that daily occurrence book?
15 A. I believe that all movements and occurrences would be
16 logged, yes.
17 Q. Are you able to help with this: at the time we are
18 talking about, were telephone calls in and out of the
19 ops centre recorded?
20 A. There was some speculation that they were recorded, but
21 I am hesitant to confirm whether I know that as fact.
22 Q. Now, in your witness statement, you give this summary of
23 the Al Fayed security operation. You say that:
24 "The team was run professionally but that reporting
25 lines were vague and [these are your words] everything

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1 was driven by Mr Mohamed Al Fayed."
2 Is that a fair summary?
3 A. Yes, that is a fair summary, yes.
4 Q. You also say that, from your perspective at least,
5 security threats to him and to his family were limited.
6 A. If you are talking about my assessment at the time, yes,
7 that's correct, yes.
8 Q. Yes, that is what I am talking about. Nevertheless
9 I think Mr Al Fayed was concerned about him and his
10 family being under surveillance.
11 A. I think primarily the concern was particularly for
12 himself, and his business involvements were being
13 monitored by the various individuals and possible
14 Government agencies, it's fair to say, yes.
15 Q. So this involved both his business interests and concern
16 about Government agencies. So business rivals as well
17 as Government agencies?
18 A. Correct, yes.
19 Q. In your witness statement, you say that you sometimes
20 found people conducting surveillance on Mr Al Fayed and
21 you compromised them.
22 A. Yes. That is correct.
23 Q. Were you ever aware specifically who these people were
24 whom you were compromising?
25 A. Not specifically. At the time there was, in the control

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1 room at Park Lane, a white marker-board with relevant
2 vehicles and vehicle registration numbers that were
3 thought to have been involved in surveillance
4 operations, and the heading to that group of people was
5 the Al Makhtoum family at that time. That was one
6 specific recollection I have in the control room, but
7 other than that, nothing specific.
8 Q. And the Al Makhtoum family were, is this right, business
9 rivals of Mr Al Fayed?
10 A. I believe so. I didn't get formally briefed at that
11 time, but we were given some informed briefing that it
12 was a business rival at the time and a considered
13 threat.
14 Q. Can I now turn to the Villa Windsor and your role there
15 and go relatively quickly through that?
16 The Villa Windsor, as we understand it, was a large
17 property in its own walled grounds near the centre of
18 Paris, in the Bois de Boulogne area.
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. It was acquired by Mr Al Fayed on a long lease,
21 restored, and he bought the original contents of the
22 house; is that right?
23 A. That is my understanding, but I have got nothing to, you
24 know, corroborate that in paper. That was my local
25 understanding.

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1 Q. In your witness statement -- and for those following
2 here, it's page 3 of that statement -- you say that you
3 recall that he was re-selling the original contents of
4 the property which he had bought up at the time that you
5 were there. Is that something you now remember?
6 A. Yes, that is correct. There was a group of people,
7 I believe from Christies Auction House, cataloguing the
8 items for auction at that time.
9 Q. Also in the grounds of the villa was a staff residence,
10 which I think was occupied by an elderly couple, a cook
11 called Maria and a caretaker called Matin. Is that
12 right?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. And then, separately, there was a stable block in which
15 you and your then wife had rooms?
16 A. Yes, correct.
17 Q. Then there was also a control room with CCTV monitors,
18 which I believe weren't monitored constantly, but
19 footage was recorded and tapes were rotated over
20 a seven-day period; is that right?
21 A. That is correct. Just further to that, there was also
22 a separate monitor that allowed me to monitor the main
23 camera systems from my own residential location at this
24 stable block.
25 Q. Yes. That was going to be my next question. In terms

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1 of your post, is this right, that you were a general
2 security guard for the premises, but that you also
3 helped make arrangements for visits by the Al Fayed
4 family during the year?
5 A. I would say so. There was no really formal
6 documentations on job description, but that is pretty
7 much what my day-to-day activities were, yes.
8 Q. When a visit took place -- and I think these took place
9 around twice a year -- you would receive some notice and
10 an advance party would arrive and set up an operations
11 centre at the house?
12 A. Yes, that is correct.
13 Q. Now, in your witness statement, you say that your
14 contact while you were in Paris was Mr Klein
15 at the Ritz. Can you briefly say what the nature and
16 frequency of your contact was with him?
17 A. Well, I know Mr Klein at the time to be the manager, or
18 some other term, of the Ritz Hotel and I considered him
19 my in-country local point of contact. I would probably
20 be in some form of communication with him on a weekly
21 basis, really just to keep up to date with occurrences
22 in and around the estate area.
23 Q. I think you also came to know the acting head of
24 security at the Ritz, who was acting head of security at
25 the time we are concerned with, M Henri Paul; is that

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1 right?
2 A. Yes, that is correct.
3 Q. You say in your statement that you met him around seven
4 to eight times in the period of eight to twelve months
5 that you were at the villa; is that a fair assessment?
6 A. Yes, that's a fair assessment. I may have seen him
7 irregularly on around about a monthly basis, and
8 probably more so if there was a family trip being
9 conducted.
10 Q. Thank you. What was your impression of Henri Paul from
11 those meetings with him?
12 A. My impression was that he was fairly professional. He
13 seemed really interested to only communicate on
14 a professional basis, fairly dour, not too extravagant,
15 fairly business-like. I think that really summarises
16 it. Fairly -- you know, from my point of view, fairly
17 one-dimensional in my dealings with him.
18 Q. In addition to your in-country contact, as you have
19 described it, you say in your statement that you
20 considered it part of your role to report to
21 Mr Mohamed Al Fayed about the Ritz Hotel in Paris; is
22 that right?
23 A. Again, there was no formal job description, but there
24 were probably one or two occasions where I was asked
25 specifically questions about the hotel, and also I was

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1 led to believe that obviously that was -- part of my
2 remit was to keep Mr Al Fayed informed of anything that
3 I knew that was going on.
4 Q. Now, I have to ask you the basis for one comment you
5 make in your witness statement. You say in that
6 statement that you believed Mr Al Fayed, from London,
7 could view CCTV footage being picked up in the
8 Ritz Hotel, Paris, and indeed in Harrods, the store.
9 What's the basis for that comment?
10 A. Bear in mind this is my, you know, long-term
11 recollection. I believe that we had some interfacing
12 with some technical people that were actually
13 demonstrating the capability of equipment that was being
14 installed in Paris at that time, and certainly part of
15 that presentation was to show that there was a means to
16 view CCTV cameras from a remote outstation and that
17 Mr Mohamed asked for this part of the equipment to be
18 installed.
19 Q. Can you remember when that was being tested?
20 A. At this time I can't recall, no.
21 Q. I think that you were at the Villa Windsor physically
22 for the visit of the Princess of Wales and Dodi Al Fayed
23 in the afternoon, mid-afternoon, of Saturday
24 30th August 1997.
25 A. Yes, that's correct.

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1 Q. Had you been present for any previous visit by the
2 Princess to the Villa Windsor?
3 A. No, I hadn't.
4 Q. Were you aware of there having been any such visit?
5 A. No, I was not aware of any such visits.
6 Q. Had you been aware of or present for a visit by
7 Dodi Al Fayed and Kelly Fisher to the Villa Windsor?
8 A. I can't give a complete answer, my recollection is
9 vague. There was -- just to elaborate slightly, the
10 Villa Windsor was used by Dodi and his staff to walk his
11 dogs on occasion, because of the space and the safety,
12 and I believe that Dodi Al Fayed did visit on occasion,
13 and I have a recollection of a female being there at one
14 of those visits.
15 Q. Dealing specifically with the visit on 30th August, how
16 much notice was given to you, first of all, that Dodi
17 and the Princess might be coming to Paris?
18 A. The notice was extremely short. I believe, if my
19 recollection serves me, that probably -- you know, I am
20 going to recollect around about five hours, but
21 certainly less than 12 hours in duration.
22 Q. When you had that initial notice given to you, were you
23 told that they would be coming to or staying at the
24 Villa Windsor?
25 A. No. I received a fairly brief telephone message from

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1 Trevor Rees-Jones indicating that they were about to
2 board an aircraft, I believe from Sardinia or Sardinia
3 area, they thought that they may be coming towards my
4 location, but it wasn't confirmed. By "my location",
5 they meant Paris rather than specifically the
6 Villa Windsor.
7 Q. We know that they landed at Le Bourget Airport from
8 Sardinia at 20 past 3 in the afternoon, Paris time. Did
9 you then receive a call from them after they had landed?
10 A. Yes, I recollect I received another call again to
11 confirm that they were on the ground, that they were
12 again a little bit unsure where they were heading to,
13 but certainly they considered either to Dodi Al Fayed's
14 apartment or perhaps the Ritz Hotel, but I should just
15 be aware that they were -- you know, there was
16 a possibility that they could come to my location.
17 Q. Okay. So at that stage a possibility. When and how did
18 you receive notification that they were definitely
19 coming to the Villa Windsor?
20 A. I think during that journey I received another telephone
21 call to say that they were en route and that it looked
22 likely that they would be coming to my location. Partly
23 there was a view that there were some paparazzi
24 following them and they may use this as a way of
25 avoiding those paparazzi and coming in for a brief

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1 period really to shake them off. That was probably
2 around about, I guess, under an hour before they
3 actually arrived.
4 Q. Now, we know from CCTV stills which have been provided
5 that the visit of the Princess and Dodi to the
6 Villa Windsor lasted 28 minutes. Does that accord with
7 how you remember it?
8 A. Yes, it does.
9 Q. Now, when they arrived, we know that they were in a car
10 with Trevor Rees-Jones and that was being driven by
11 Philippe Dourneau. Again do you remember that?
12 A. Yes, I do remember that.
13 Q. Your then wife, now your ex-wife, remained in the flat
14 in the stable block throughout the entire visit, didn't
15 she?
16 A. That's correct, yes.
17 Q. What was she doing there?
18 A. Because I wasn't there, I can't comment. The simple
19 answer is I don't know.
20 Q. Okay. Now, she has given a statement to legal
21 representatives of Mr Al Fayed, and in that statement
22 she says that you had ordered her to stay in the stable
23 block. Is that right?
24 A. Again, it's a long time ago and I can't recollect, but
25 "order" is probably a bit strong. Certainly if there

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1 was a family visit or a visit of this magnitude, it
2 would be normal practice for anyone that wasn't directly
3 involved to be, you know, out of the main areas,
4 certainly.
5 Q. When they arrived, did Dodi Al Fayed say anything to you
6 about the purpose of their visit?
7 A. No, he didn't.
8 Q. When they arrived, how did they appear and how did they
9 behave?
10 A. They seemed, I guess, slightly flustered. He seemed
11 probably a little bit more controlled and really trying
12 to influence Princess Diana to calm her down, and
13 I guess, from the brief background of my knowledge, that
14 they had probably been followed from Le Bourget and also
15 the information about the primary reason of coming into
16 the estate -- I guess the summary was that he was trying
17 to calm things down and get themselves to a private
18 location to gather their wits about them.
19 Q. While they were at the Villa Windsor, did you have any
20 conversation with Trevor Rees-Jones?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. What did he say during that conversation?
23 A. My recollection is basically that he was unhappy with
24 his lack of input into the operations from a security
25 point of view and unhappy with the lack of information

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1 he was getting to allow him to prepare ahead, to make
2 sure that, you know, security measures were put in place
3 to mitigate any risk or threat that he could see. So
4 fairly fed up, I guess, is a summary.
5 Q. Now, we know that you say that you made no written log
6 of the visit of Mr Al Fayed and the Princess, but that
7 you did print off some CCTV stills as a record of the
8 visit; is that right?
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 Q. What was your purpose in printing off the stills at the
11 time that you printed them?
12 A. My -- I guess really my -- when there was no family
13 visits, there wasn't a great deal that happened at the
14 villa. That was one thing. Also the tapes, there was,
15 if I recollect, around about seven or probably -- enough
16 tapes to capture one week of activity. After that week
17 had ended, the tapes would then be, you know, overplayed
18 and so any information would be lost. So I guess at
19 that time any points of interest or anything that needed
20 to be maintained for record purposes would need to be
21 printed out. So mainly it was, I guess, at that time
22 something of high importance that happened and
23 I considered it as a point of record to print it out and
24 keep it with the log book record.
25 Q. I will deal later with the consequences, but I think you

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1 personally retained those printed-off stills and you
2 later sold them to The Sun newspaper at the same time as
3 you sold your story; is that right?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. You have said in The Sun newspaper and also in your
6 statement that you saw Henri Paul on 30th August 1997.
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. Now, in the article in The Sun, you say that "The
9 meeting with Henri Paul took place", and I am quoting,
10 "when Diana, 36, and 42-year-old Dodi stopped off at the
11 Al-Fayed-owned Villa Windsor in Paris before heading for
12 the Ritz". So that's saying that your meeting with
13 Henri Paul and your conversation with him took place at
14 the time that Dodi and Diana visited; do you understand?
15 A. I understand your statement, yes.
16 Q. So that's what you are recorded as having told The Sun.
17 I think in your witness statement you say the
18 conversation with Henri Paul, which we will get to in
19 a moment, took place earlier on in the day, when he
20 happened to come by the villa. Now, that's in your
21 witness statement at page 12, if you want to look at it.
22 Which is right, Mr Murrell?
23 A. Okay, the witness statement is the true account.
24 Certainly I saw Henri Paul some time before that visit.
25 Q. Did you see him at all during the course of the visit of

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1 the Princess and Dodi Al Fayed?
2 A. No, I didn't.
3 Q. Are you aware of whether he came to the Villa Windsor at
4 all during that visit?
5 A. I am not aware of him coming at that part of the visit,
6 no.
7 Q. Because there is some evidence from others that after
8 the Princess and Dodi had been brought to the
9 Villa Windsor, M Paul arrived later at the villa with
10 Kes Wingfield as his passenger. Does that ring a bell
11 of any kind?
12 A. I recall Kes Wingfield being later delivered to the
13 Villa Windsor, but I don't recall at this time who
14 actually brought him there.
15 Q. Now, I have referred to what you told The Sun newspaper
16 or what you are reported as having told The Sun
17 newspaper, namely that you had a particular conversation
18 with Henri Paul at the time that the Princess and
19 Dodi Al Fayed were at the Villa Windsor. Is that
20 something you told The Sun newspaper or have they
21 interpreted it wrongly, edited it wrongly or whatever?
22 A. I haven't got the documents in front of me, so I am
23 talking from memory, but firstly, as I confirmed
24 earlier, the meeting with Henri Paul took place at
25 a different time to this event, to my recollection. But

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1 certainly there was interaction with Henri Paul that was
2 unusual and I have recounted both, I think, in my
3 witness statement and to The Sun newspaper.
4 Q. I will quote what you have said to The Sun newspaper.
5 Others may want to show it on screen, but I will quote
6 it for speed. For those who are keeping a note, it's
7 [INQ0041249 - link to follow]. You are quoted as having said this to
8 The Sun:
9 "'I went down to the gate to let Paul [that's
10 Henri Paul] in. As he pulled alongside, he opened the
11 window. He suddenly pulled me towards him and said
12 "Yeah, Ben, you good".
13 "'His breath smelt. It was the sort of smell
14 I recognise from someone who has had a good lunch with
15 wine.
16 "'It was a bit overpowering, but I did not say
17 anything. I stood there quite shocked by his actions.
18 "'I had met him on many occasions at the Ritz and he
19 seemed so quiet. To grab me was so out of character.
20 He seemed so excited. I am sure he'd had a drink.'"
21 First of all, is that something you said to The Sun
22 or has any of that been misreported?
23 A. I would say the only possible misreporting is that "I am
24 sure he had a drink". It was my opinion that obviously
25 he certainly was acting out of character, and up until

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1 that word, I think that pretty much summarises my
2 recollection.
3 Q. So to get your evidence right, you are saying that other
4 than the sentence about you being sure that he had had
5 a drink, the other comments about you letting Henri Paul
6 in, his saying "Yeah, Ben, you good", his breath
7 smelling, you being shocked -- you say that that all
8 happened, but that it was earlier in the afternoon?
9 A. I confirm, correct, that they all did happen, and
10 I believe it to be certainly not at the time of the
11 visit. To be totally honest, I cannot -- it was around
12 the time of the visit. I cannot honestly tell you
13 whether it was just before or whether it was after. But
14 I don't recall it being during the visit.
15 Q. I just have to put this to you: your ex-wife,
16 Rebecca Murrell, has told the representatives of
17 Mr Al Fayed that she was watching events unfolding on
18 the CCTV monitors in the flat during the actual visit
19 and that you did speak to Henri Paul while Dodi and
20 Diana were there, but only very briefly when he was
21 leaving the grounds of the villa. Now, can you make any
22 comment on that statement?
23 A. Only to the effect that I don't recall -- that isn't my
24 recollection of the event.
25 Q. Can we move on to events later in the day after the

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1 party had left the Villa Windsor? First of all, I think
2 as soon as they left, you made a call to Mr Klein
3 at the Ritz to tell him they were on their way.
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. Did you also make a call to the operations centre in
6 London?
7 A. I can't remember it verbatim, but that would be -- you
8 know, my normal standard procedure would be to inform
9 those that needed to know, you know, where the person
10 was and where they were going to. So my assumption is
11 that would be correct, yes.
12 Q. In your statement, you say that later in the day you
13 received some further calls from Trevor Rees-Jones.
14 First of all, a couple of perfunctory calls about where
15 the couple were going, and then you received a further
16 call which was a little more significant, when they were
17 in -- the couple, that is -- the restaurant at the Ritz.
18 Do you recall that telephone conversation?
19 A. I recall there being a number of telephone calls between
20 myself and Trevor, yes.
21 Q. You deal with the call I am thinking about at page 7 of
22 your statement. I don't know if you have that in front
23 of you.
24 A. No, I haven't.
25 Q. Let me quote the paragraph.

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1 "The next call I got from Trevor was from the Ritz,
2 when they were having a meal in the small restaurant.
3 This call was more social than operational. He told me
4 that Dodi and Diana had been due to have a meal at the
5 restaurant but had been disturbed and had gone to
6 the Ritz."
7 The restaurant there referred to is Chez Benoit.
8 "I don't know the nature of the disturbance. This
9 was a further example of plans being changed with no
10 real structure. Trevor asked me about Henri Paul.
11 I got the impression that Trevor and Henri Paul did not
12 hit it off and Trevor was asking me who he was. Trevor
13 had observed him taking a drink and offered drinks to
14 Trevor and Kes, which they thought was highly
15 unprofessional. Trevor did not specify that it was
16 an alcoholic drink, but the fact that this was mentioned
17 led me to believe that it was an alcoholic drink to
18 which he was referring. They were sat in the bar for
19 a tactical reason, but Henri Paul was just hanging
20 around the bar, having a drink without purpose."
21 Is that a call which you now recall telling the
22 police about?
23 A. Yes, it is, yes.
24 Q. Is the summary in your witness statement an accurate
25 record of that call?

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1 A. Yes, it is an accurate record of that call.
2 Q. Now, in your witness statement, the next call you refer
3 to was a call around midnight from Kes Wingfield asking
4 whether you knew where Trevor Rees-Jones was, so very
5 much later in events. Was there any call in between
6 Trevor's call that we have just heard about and the
7 later call from Kes Wingfield about midnight?
8 A. Not to my recollection, no.
9 Q. Then I think shortly thereafter you had a call from
10 Philippe Dourneau to a similar effect and then you were
11 told about the crash by Kes Wingfield over the phone; is
12 that right?
13 A. That's correct, yes.
14 Q. Thinking back as best you can, did you at any point in
15 that day at all make a call back to the operations
16 centre in London?
17 A. Other than the one that we discussed earlier, to be
18 perfectly frank I cannot recall that information, that
19 level of detail.
20 Q. To complete the picture, I think you then, in the small
21 hours, 2 to 3 o'clock in the morning, had a call from
22 one of Mr Mohamed Al Fayed's bodyguards to say that he
23 would be coming to the villa, and he arrived there, you
24 think, at about 5 o'clock in the morning.
25 A. Yes, that's correct.

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1 Q. In The Sun newspaper, you are recorded as saying various
2 things about what Trevor Rees-Jones said to you. Again
3 can I quote this to you? It's a box in the newspaper
4 entitled "Dodi kept ignoring advice on security" and the
5 quotation is this:
6 "Furious Trevor Rees-Jones wanted to 'have it out'
7 with Dodi Al Fayed because the playboy ignored security
8 instructions, Ben Murrell revealed.
9 "He said bodyguard Trevor was at his wits' end when
10 he arrived with Diana and Dodi at the Villa Windsor on
11 August 30th.
12 "Ben said: 'He was really angry. He said Dodi
13 always came up with his own plans which basically meant
14 problems for the security people.
15 "'He was going to have it out with Dodi and tell him
16 he had to listen to advice.
17 "'He said "Dodi never tells me what's happening".'"
18 Pausing there, is that an accurate account of
19 your conversation with Trevor when he was at the
20 Villa Windsor that day?
21 A. Yes, it is an accurate account.
22 Q. The next passage from The Sun is this:
23 "Ben added: 'On their last journey from the
24 Ritz Hotel, Trevor suggested using a decoy car -- but it
25 was Dodi's idea to go out of the back entrance.

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1 "'Trevor was the expert but Dodi was just showing
2 off in front of the Princess'."
3 Now, you are there recorded as saying two things.
4 First of all, Trevor suggested using a decoy car on the
5 last journey from the Ritz. Is that something you were
6 ever told?
7 A. The information post-incident was really a discussion
8 with -- primarily with Kes Wingfield, who I spent time
9 with after the incident, and so I think that is fair to
10 say that I was aware of that information.
11 Q. In your witness statement, at page 13, you say:
12 "The section of the quote relating to Trevor
13 suggesting using a decoy car I would class as
14 a misquote. The general text of the quote is correct.
15 The only part which I think is factually inaccurate was
16 that I did not know if the plan was Trevor's or someone
17 else's. My information regarding Trevor's
18 frustration ..."
19 Then you talk about your information about Trevor's
20 frustration. So in your witness statement, at least,
21 you were saying that the comment about Trevor using
22 a decoy car was a misquote and factually inaccurate, but
23 you said a couple of moments ago that it was information
24 you received from Kes. Which is right?
25 A. I can't remember is my answer. The piece that I was

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1 referring to slightly earlier was really the information
2 from Kes about -- to confirm Trevor's dissatisfaction
3 about how things were going. As for the direct
4 information about whose plan it was to use the decoy
5 vehicle, that I can't confirm.
6 Q. As we have also heard from the quotation, you are quoted
7 as saying that "It was Dodi's idea to go out of the back
8 entrance". Is that something which, first of all, is
9 accurate?
10 A. I am talking about, you know, third-party information.
11 I wasn't there. It's in relation to conversations
12 I have had post-incident, primarily with Kes Wingfield
13 and probably Trevor.
14 Q. Okay. Let us take this in stages. Did Kes tell you
15 either that Trevor had suggested using a decoy car or
16 that it was Dodi's idea to go out of the back entrance?
17 A. My recollection is that it was Dodi's plan to go out of
18 the back entrance.
19 Q. From where did you get that information?
20 A. I believe that I got it from Kes Wingfield.
21 Q. The other piece of information, that Trevor suggested
22 using a decoy car, is that something that you said to
23 The Sun at all?
24 A. I can't recollect that level of detail at this stage,
25 I am sorry.

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1 Q. Moving on to the aftermath of the crash and your
2 dealings with Trevor, I think Trevor's family naturally
3 came over to Paris after the crash and you acted as
4 a kind of liaison with them; is that right?
5 A. That's correct, yes.
6 Q. I think you did that, you say, under instructions from
7 Paul Handley-Greaves.
8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 Q. Over the days that followed, while you were dealing with
10 Trevor Rees-Jones' family, what did you perceive
11 Mr Handley-Greaves wanted you to do?
12 A. I think a summary would be that initially it was almost
13 like a liaison/duty-of-care-type role, under the
14 circumstances, you know, of their son being in the
15 hospital. However, as the situation progressed, I was
16 under the impression that I was more there to contain
17 them and to try and control any adverse communication or
18 outcomes in the situation of them becoming maybe anti or
19 wanting to take things in an adverse direction to that
20 of the family.
21 Q. Which family?
22 A. Sorry, Mohamed Al Fayed and his family.
23 Q. So in blunt terms, you are saying that you perceived it
24 to be your instructions to contain anything that
25 Mr Rees-Jones' family may say which was adverse to the

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1 interests of Mr Mohamed Al Fayed's family?
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. In The Sun article, this is what you are reported as
4 having said.
5 "In the days after the Paris crash, Rees-Jones was
6 not expected to survive his terrible injuries."
7 That's background:
8 "But when it became apparent he would live, Ben
9 [that's you] and Kes Wingfield were ordered to 'get to'
10 him before he could make a police statement.
11 "Ben said [the article goes on]: 'These instructions
12 came from Mohamed Al Fayed.
13 "'We were told to tell Trevor he would be looked
14 after and he shouldn't say anything to the police about
15 the accident.
16 "'But security at the hospital was so tight that
17 only family were allowed to visit Trevor'.
18 "Ben said: 'When this was relayed back to Mohamed,
19 we were told he went mad and said we must see him.
20 "'Eventually Kes managed to get in. Trevor could
21 not speak but he could write'."
22 Is that an accurate account of what you told The Sun
23 newspaper?
24 A. Yes, that is an accurate account of what I told The Sun
25 newspaper.

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1 Q. Are those the instructions you received from your
2 superiors?
3 A. Yes, they were the instructions that I received through
4 my superiors.
5 Q. Who specifically told you to do that?
6 A. Paul Handley-Greaves.
7 Q. Why do you believe or how do you know that the
8 instructions were ultimately coming from
9 Mr Mohamed Al Fayed?
10 A. I believe in the conversation, that was the
11 interpretation. I think the term "the boss" was used.
12 That was a common word for Mr Al Fayed.
13 Q. Moving on, I think that after Mr Rees Jones was
14 discharged from hospital, you stayed at the
15 Villa Windsor for a short time before being posted to
16 the St Tropez villa complex; is that right?
17 A. Yes, that's correct.
18 Q. Then I think you returned to the Villa Windsor for
19 a short period.
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. While you were at the villa, was it ever visited by
22 journalists by arrangement with Mr Mohamed Al Fayed?
23 A. Yes, it was.
24 Q. Do you recall one specific occasion when two American
25 journalists visited?

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1 A. Yes, I do recall that.
2 Q. Before that visit, did you receive any specific
3 instructions, and if so, from whom?
4 A. I received instructions and information from Mr Klein of
5 the Ritz and also -- I can't recall the gentleman's name
6 now, but he was Mr Al Fayed's spokesman at the time,
7 concerning how to control the visit and also the aim of
8 the visit to -- that these people were writing a story
9 about Dodi and the Princess.
10 Q. Were you given any specific instructions on what to say
11 in conversation with the journalists?
12 A. The one specific thing that I was told to do was to
13 mention the presence of an interior designer, the name
14 "Ardo Grossi", I believe, and to indicate that he was
15 part of the visit within the Villa Windsor --
16 Q. Sorry, which visit?
17 A. Sorry, say that again.
18 Q. Which visit to the Villa Windsor are you talking about?
19 A. The visit of Dodi and Diana.
20 Q. Thank you. Go on.
21 A. -- and that he was there involved with some form of
22 interior planning or interior decoration, and also to
23 indicate that they were there for a considerable period
24 of time, possibly all of the afternoon, speaking with
25 the interior designer.

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1 Q. Who gave you those instructions?
2 A. Those instructions came from Mr Al Fayed's spokesman,
3 I recollect, and also -- okay, it came from the
4 spokesman. You can see by the tone of my voice
5 I distinctly recall them and recall that they came from
6 Mr Al Fayed's aides, but I can't specifically name the
7 individuals. The one recollection that I had was
8 I mentioned to Mr Klein who was at the visit --
9 I mentioned to Mr Klein on the visit about being asked
10 to talk about Mr Ardo Grossi and my reservations to do
11 this and also my reservations about elaborating the
12 length and the detail of the visit. I certainly
13 recollect that clearly.
14 Q. Because in your statement to the British police, you
15 indicated that you received your instructions from
16 David Pinch, who was Mr Al Fayed's personal bodyguard,
17 rather than Mr Klein or Mr Al Fayed's spokesman. Does
18 that help you now to recall who you think it might have
19 been?
20 A. Okay, I do -- yes, I do recall a phone call between
21 myself back to the control room and speaking to
22 Mr David Pinch and having that information passed,
23 specifically the name of the interior designer.
24 Q. Were you ever asked by your superiors to speak to
25 journalists on other occasions?

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1 A. I believe there was another visit or another planned,
2 some form of press summary, but I can't recall the
3 degree of involvement I was expected to take.
4 Q. Now, moving on, I think that you resigned your post in
5 Mr Al Fayed's security team at the start of August 1998.
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. I think that you sold your story to The Sun pretty much
8 immediately, along with the photo stills from the
9 Villa Windsor showing the visit of the Princess and
10 Dodi Al Fayed.
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. What reason do you give for your resignation?
13 A. There were several reasons for my giving my resignation.
14 One was I could see how the story, the part that I know
15 of, surrounding the Villa Windsor visit, was being
16 elaborated to form part of what I thought was a bigger
17 picture story by Mr Al Fayed to support some -- to
18 demonstrate a more detailed relationship between the
19 couple, and that because I hadn't actively supported
20 that falsification, I would be either terminated or
21 possibly worse, and I considered my own integrity at
22 that stage to be in question or would have been in
23 question.
24 Q. I was about to ask you anyway, but your use of the word
25 "terminated", I assume you mean "sacked" rather than the

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1 Schwarzenegger sense of the word?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. After your resignation -- again this is a matter of
4 public record -- one of Mr Al Fayed's companies, your
5 employer, successfully sued you for breach of confidence
6 and for breach of your contract of employment in
7 releasing the photo stills, among other things, and
8 those proceedings ended in, I think, February 2000; is
9 that right?
10 A. That's correct, yes.
11 Q. And damages of £40,000 were awarded against you in those
12 proceedings.
13 A. My recollection actually is that only part of the action
14 was successful. It was the infringement of publication
15 rights of the photograph -- the photographs only -- that
16 I was found -- you know, found out (inaudible), if
17 that's the correct word. So, yes, that's my
18 understanding.
19 Q. Certainly the reports we have focus on that aspect of
20 it. You, in return, I think, brought a claim for unfair
21 dismissal, constructive dismissal, in the employment
22 tribunal; is that right?
23 A. That's correct, yes.
24 Q. Now, in April 2006, you told the British police that the
25 employment tribunal proceedings had sort of gone dormant

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1 and that you had not been pursued for the £40,000 that
2 had been awarded against you. Is that still the case?
3 A. Yes, that's still the case.
4 Q. Two quick other matters. Since you have left the
5 employment of Mr Al Fayed, I think you had a job for
6 a period -- I don't know if you still have it -- for
7 a company called Control Risks, a security company,
8 a private company.
9 A. Yes, that's correct. Can I just -- to elaborate, it's
10 a consultancy company. So I was a consultant to that
11 company, but not an employee.
12 Q. You describe your role -- you were working there in
13 April 2006 -- as a senior risk management consultant for
14 that company in Nigeria.
15 A. That's correct, yes.
16 Q. In the statement which has been made by your ex-wife to
17 Mr Al Fayed's lawyers, it has been suggested that you
18 didn't have the qualifications for that job and it may
19 be suggested by some that you received that job as
20 a kind of payment for turning against Mr Al Fayed. Is
21 there any truth in that?
22 A. No, there is absolutely no truth in that at all.
23 Q. Did you regard yourself as having the qualifications for
24 that job?
25 A. I did, yes.

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1 Q. Other than what you have said about your superiors in
2 Mr Al Fayed's organisation, has anyone else put pressure
3 on you to give any particular version of events over the
4 years?
5 A. No, they haven't.
6 MR HOUGH: Thank you very much, sir. Those are my
7 questions.
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you. Mr Mansfield?
9 MR MANSFIELD: May I adopt Mr Croxford's questioning?
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
11 MR WEEKES: The same goes for me, sir.
12 MR CROXFORD: Sir, you will have noticed that Mr Keen is not
13 here today, he has to be in Scotland today, so given the
14 commonality of interest between the Ritz and Henri Paul,
15 over the physical condition of Henri Paul, it has been
16 agreed that I shall ask some questions on this occasion.
17 Questions from MR CROXFORD
18 MR CROXFORD: Mr Murrell, my name is Ian Croxford.
19 I represent the Ritz Hotel.
20 After the crash in Paris in August of 1997, you had
21 quite a lot of dealings, I think, with Mr Rees Jones and
22 Mr Wingfield; is that correct?
23 A. That's correct, yes, although (inaudible) probably
24 Mr Wingfield. Obviously, Mr Rees-Jones was in hospital
25 for most of that period.

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1 Q. As and when he came out of hospital, you and he remained
2 on good friendly terms?
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 Q. May I ask you this? Did you assist him with providing
5 information or otherwise contribute to a book which he
6 wrote?
7 A. No, I didn't.
8 Q. I would like to ask you about what you have told the
9 jury here about Mr Henri Paul. You won't know this, but
10 it seems very probable that the jury here in London will
11 soon hear of how, on 4th September of 1997, just those
12 few days after the crash, a waiter at a bar sometimes
13 used by Henri Paul to buy a shandy or another drink,
14 an Orangina, say, was approached by two men who appeared
15 to be English journalists and said to him something
16 like, "You tell me that he, Henri Paul, drank two
17 whiskies and I will give you whatever you want" -- said
18 one of those journalists. "You tell me what I want to
19 hear and I will pay you what you want". When you dealt
20 with The Sun, you told them what you thought they wanted
21 to hear and they gave you, as your price, £40,000,
22 didn't they?
23 A. No, I don't think that's the true recollection --
24 Q. Well --
25 A. -- or that's actually not the true account, no.

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1 Q. It came about in 1998, didn't it, that your hope for
2 a transfer to work in the sunny climes of St Tropez
3 hadn't worked out, had it?
4 A. Sorry, could you re-say your question?
5 Q. In 1998, your hopes that you would be transferred to
6 work in the sunny climes of St Tropez hadn't worked out,
7 had they?
8 A. I was transferred from Paris to St Tropez. I moved down
9 there for a period of time, and then, after a short
10 period of time, I was asked then to go back to Paris,
11 that's correct.
12 Q. You had had some difficulties with someone else working
13 in the organisation down in St Tropez, hadn't you?
14 A. I don't understand the difficulties. There was
15 a security officer that had been moved to a different
16 role within the estate and I was asked to take over his
17 former role as the security officer, that is correct,
18 and certainly after a period of some months I was asked
19 to come back to Paris; that's correct.
20 Q. You were sent back to Paris, and when you got back
21 there, you began to think that it might perhaps be the
22 time for you to move on and do something else, some
23 other job; correct?
24 A. I certainly felt that it -- felt that it was a good time
25 to leave at that stage, yes.

143

1 Q. At that time you knew very well that there was still
2 a great deal of press interest in the crash in the
3 Alma Tunnel and the death of the Princess, didn't you?
4 A. Yes, I did know that, yes.
5 Q. So before you made your move to move on, you asked your
6 mother-in-law, who lived in England, to get in contact
7 with newspapers and see if she could sell a story to
8 them on your behalf; that's right, isn't it?
9 A. No, that is not correct, no.
10 Q. "After taking the decision to resign, having taken this
11 decision, I asked my mother-in-law, who lives in
12 England, to make some inquiries with the media on my
13 behalf."
14 Is that not right?
15 A. I don't understand your question, sorry.
16 Q. You asked your mother-in-law to tout a story that you
17 might be prepared to sell to those newspapers in England
18 who might be prepared to pay you money, didn't you?
19 A. I would put it in my own words, which would be that
20 I have never been down the road of press involvement,
21 and being in Paris, I didn't know how to get actually in
22 touch with a journalist. So it's probable that I may
23 have asked her to find out how I would do that. That is
24 correct.
25 Q. And The Sun was the highest bidder, was it?

144

1 A. Bidding didn't come into it, in actual fact. I actually
2 only approached or went further with that particular
3 newspaper and no others.
4 Q. You only went further, but that was the highest bidder,
5 was it, or was it the only bidder?
6 A. I don't think there was any bidding process as such, in
7 my recollection.
8 Q. So The Sun sent two journalists to see you in Paris,
9 didn't they?
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. You wrongfully sold those two journalists or The Sun
12 newspaper pictures which you had captured without
13 authority from the security cameras at the
14 Villa Windsor, didn't you?
15 A. The pictures were part of the corroboration to my
16 story to retain my integrity of the visit taking only
17 28 minutes, correct.
18 Q. You wrongfully sold them, pictures which you had taken
19 without permission from the closed circuit TV system at
20 the Villa Windsor, didn't you?
21 A. It was within my job remit to take prints and stills
22 from the CCTV camera system in my normal working
23 practice.
24 Q. Even if that's right, it was your normal working
25 practice to hold them within the security service at

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1 Villa Windsor until asked to put them elsewhere within
2 the Hyde Park residence's organisation, wasn't it?
3 A. Yes, you are correct, yes.
4 Q. It had got nothing to do with you helping yourself to
5 them, having taken them, and selling them to The Sun,
6 had it?
7 A. It was the only documented evidence that I had to
8 corroborate that the actual visit took 28 minutes and
9 not the elongated visit that I was being asked to talk
10 about and that was later mentioned.
11 Q. The Sun journalists wanted some corroboration for the
12 tale which you were selling to them, didn't they?
13 A. I can't speak on their behalf, but I think it would be
14 normal practice to make sure that they had some factual
15 evidence to corroborate.
16 Q. By way of corroboration, didn't they give you a camera
17 and tell you to go in the Villa Windsor and take some
18 pictures of you there just to prove that you worked
19 there?
20 A. I don't recall that. I am not saying you are not
21 correct, but I don't honestly recall that, no.
22 Q. You sold them a tale in which you weren't too concerned,
23 were you, sir, about embellishing the story that you
24 thought they wanted to hear?
25 A. No, I think I was quite keen that a factual account from

146

1 my side was heard in the public domain to counter other
2 stories that were being released in an area where I had
3 individual knowledge that those stories were false.
4 Q. Or was this that you wanted to counter -- get your
5 retaliation in because you thought you were at risk of
6 losing your job?
7 A. I really wasn't doing this from an emotive or
8 an emotional point of view. It was the only way that
9 I could see to actually factually document and have my
10 position recognised.
11 Q. Having sold your tale, you resigned and moved on; is
12 that right?
13 A. It was actually the other way around. I made sure that
14 I resigned first before going to that stage.
15 MR CROXFORD: I wonder if I could ask Mr Foley to put up on
16 the screen that [INQ0041249 - link to follow], if I wrote the number down
17 rightly.
18 This is your Sun story.
19 If you would, please, Mr Foley, just focus in on the
20 right-hand column, the bottom half, and in particular
21 the area that says "The meeting took place ..."
22 Thank you. What The Sun published as your story
23 was a meeting which took place between you and
24 Henri Paul when the Princess, 36, and 42-year-old Dodi
25 stopped off at the Al Fayed villa; correct?

147

1 A. Sorry, just for clarification, can you ask that question
2 again please?
3 Q. Of course. What The Sun published as your story in
4 September 1998 was that your meeting with Henri Paul
5 took place when Diana and Dodi stopped off at the
6 Villa Windsor that Saturday afternoon.
7 A. I guess that's the point of fact as publicised there.
8 Q. It's publicised there. Nearly nine years after the
9 event, when you came to make a statement and you told
10 the Metropolitan Police your tale, you said this, didn't
11 you?
12 "I have been asked about meeting with Henri Paul on
13 the day of the visit of Dodi and Diana to the
14 Villa Windsor. I think I met him on the afternoon of
15 the visit when he came to the Villa Windsor to drop
16 something off."
17 Correct?
18 A. Yes, that's correct.
19 Q. A visit when he came to drop something off is not
20 a visit when he accompanied the Princess, Mr Al Fayed
21 and Messrs Wingfield and Rees-Jones, is it?
22 A. That's correct, yes.
23 Q. Later on in what you have told the Metropolitan Police
24 nearly nine years later, you said, "I have been shown
25 a copy of an article from The Sun newspaper dated

148

1 3rd September 1998, attributing a quote to me about the
2 incident with Henri Paul under the headline 'Trevor's
3 fury over Di's drunk chauffeur'. This reads [and I will
4 just take the first few words] 'I went down to the gate
5 to let Paul in ...'"
6 That is the quote which we see in The Sun newspaper
7 on the screen in front of us, Mr Murrell; do you see
8 that?
9 A. Sorry, what was the question? I don't understand the
10 question.
11 Q. Well, nine years after the event, you described
12 a meeting with Mr Paul coming to drop something off.
13 A year after the event, this meeting was when he
14 accompanied the Princess and Dodi Al Fayed. Which was
15 it?
16 A. As I have said to previous counsel and also to the
17 police who I gave the statement, I cannot factually
18 recall at which stage during that part of the day that
19 I had that interaction with Henri Paul. It's primarily
20 my recollection around the interaction with Henri Paul
21 at the gate, of which I have more detailed recollection.
22 I cannot sit here and give you, you know, one or other
23 answer as to whether it was slightly before, during or
24 slightly after. But I can, in all honesty, remember
25 that incident.

149

1 Q. It was only one meeting with Henri Paul, was it?
2 A. That's my recollection, yes.
3 Q. If he was accompanying Mr Wingfield in the Range Rover
4 when it came with the Princess and Mr Al Fayed, then
5 your meeting, if you had one, could have been at that
6 stage, could it not?
7 A. It is possible, yes.
8 Q. Can I suggest to you, Mr Murrell, a possibility also?
9 You have changed your story from the one that you sold
10 to The Sun to the one that you told to the
11 Metropolitan Police about the nature of the visit by
12 Henri Paul because your former wife disagreed with your
13 account of events as published in The Sun; could that be
14 right?
15 A. I don't think it could be right. As I say, as I sit
16 here, I really don't have that level of recollection --
17 that's one point -- and I really have no emotional
18 involvement in any of this action, incident or activity.
19 I am speaking purely as somebody that's been called to
20 give evidence. I really have no other personal interest
21 in this situation.
22 Q. You do know that she disagrees with the account of
23 events that you gave to The Sun about meeting
24 Henri Paul, don't you?
25 A. No, I don't know what she agrees or disagrees with.

150

1 Q. In any event, this account that we see in The Sun, even
2 you don't accept as being accurate, do you? For the
3 last line, "'I am sure he had had a drink'", you say you
4 don't think you told The Sun that.
5 A. I have always maintained to everybody that I -- just to
6 clarify, I had no editorial rights over the story that
7 I gave to The Sun prior to publication. Also, what
8 I have said on numerous occasions is the behaviour of
9 Mr Henri Paul during that brief interaction that I had
10 with him was different and unusual to any that I had had
11 before, and the action of him leaning out of the vehicle
12 and grabbing me and saying -- you know, speaking to me
13 in the way that he did, was unusual. I have never tried
14 to say that what I smelt on that person's breath I can
15 clearly identify as alcohol. It was an odour
16 associated -- I had smelt similar things with people
17 that have eaten and had wine or drink with their meal.
18 I cannot corroborate any further to anybody than that
19 real detail that I can recall.
20 Q. You told the Metropolitan Police -- in respect of the
21 last sentence, "I am sure he had had a drink", you told
22 the police this:
23 "I am not sure that he had had a drink. I have been
24 misquoted and I never said that."
25 Is that correct?

151

1 A. You have the statement in front of you, so I am sure it
2 is correct and I agree with you. Also, as I highlighted
3 with the other gentleman that spoke, the other counsel,
4 the word "sure" is not a word that I would use. Coming
5 from a security type of background, I am not an expert
6 on alcohol and I would never quote that as such.
7 Q. You just told this jury, "I have never tried to say that
8 what I smelled on that person's breath I can clearly
9 identify as alcohol". It must follow, must it not, that
10 the earlier part of what The Sun published, here in
11 italics on the screen, "'His breath smelled. It was the
12 sort of smell I recognise from someone who has had a
13 good lunch with wine'", you can't have said that either,
14 can you?
15 A. I think that is more in line with the definition of what
16 that incident meant to me. So I would say that that
17 corroborates what I said at that time, yes, or more
18 clearly corroborates.
19 Q. You read this article when it was published in The Sun,
20 did you, Mr Murrell?
21 A. I probably browsed through it, yes. I -- yes, I guess
22 the answer is yes.
23 Q. Your 15 minutes of fame. Did you write in or ring up
24 and complain about this misquote where you had alleged
25 that Henri Paul had had a drink, something you had never

152

1 said?
2 A. No, I didn't.
3 Q. Did you write in or ring up and say, "Hang on a minute,
4 what are you doing saying this was anything to do with
5 when he came with the Princess? This was a different
6 occasion when he came at some other time in the day to
7 drop something off"? You didn't, did you?
8 A. If you are asking me, I had no editorial input either
9 before or after the story had been released, that's
10 correct.
11 Q. You didn't ring up or write in to complain because you
12 didn't care about the accuracy of the story, did you?
13 A. I think my view is that the story was in the public
14 domain and me putting on record at that stage that it
15 was slightly, by one or two words, incorrect wasn't my
16 concern at that time, my personal concern, no.
17 Q. You are not seriously suggesting, Mr Murrell, that to
18 suggest that it was slightly, by one or two words
19 incorrect would adequately describe a gross injustice,
20 if that's what it was, to the late Mr Henri Paul to be
21 saying to your knowledge that you formed the view he had
22 had a drink?
23 It sounds as if my volume may have done some damage
24 to the stratosphere or cable.
25 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: It may be the appropriate time to

153

1 have a break.
2 MR CROXFORD: I have not got much more, sir. I know you
3 have one eye on the clock, as have I. I have a final
4 part to deal with.
5 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We will see if we can retrieve
6 the sound. (Pause) Can you hear us again?
7 A. Okay, I can now hear you. There was a break in power at
8 this end, apologies. I can now see you and hear you.
9 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you.
10 MR CROXFORD: Mr Murrell, I will put to you some suggestions
11 and see whether these are closer to the truth of what
12 happened.
13 First of all is this: your wife, doubtless like many
14 countless men and women around the world, when she came
15 to know that the Princess of Wales was going to be
16 coming to the place she lived, was keen at least to get
17 close to the Princess, wasn't she?
18 A. I don't know. I can't say "yes" or "no" to that.
19 I guess it would be normal human nature perhaps, yes.
20 Q. You ordered her to go back to the flat in which you
21 lived and stay there for at least three hours when it
22 became clear that the Princess was soon to arrive,
23 didn't you?
24 A. No, I didn't do that. No, I didn't say that.
25 Q. You have agreed already that from your flat, you can

154

1 monitor and control the CCTV cameras in the
2 Villa Windsor, couldn't you?
3 A. Sorry, we are having some power problems here. Can you
4 repeat that question?
5 Q. Yes, of course. From your flat it was possible to
6 monitor and control the closed circuit television system
7 at Villa Windsor?
8 A. It was possible to monitor the CCTV system, but to
9 actually control it you would have to take a particular
10 part of the system from the control room and that
11 wouldn't be done as a normal part of business. But you
12 can monitor certain cameras, yes.
13 Q. Wasn't your wife at least allowed the small compensation
14 of seeing the Princess on the telly?
15 (Pause for technical problem)
16 MR CROXFORD: I don't know if it's a convenient time for
17 a break, sir?
18 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We may have to. Mr Horwell, will
19 you be any length of time?
20 MR HORWELL: Not long at all, sir, no.
21 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We don't want to get the link
22 back and then lose it. On the other hand there is
23 a limit to how long we can sit simply waiting. (Pause)
24 I think we will have to adjourn for a few moments to
25 allow this to be sorted out. We will have our break,

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1 members of the jury.
2 (3.25 pm)
3 (A short break)
4 (3.40 pm)
5 (Jury out)
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Croxford, there is a serious
7 problem with the link. We have decided to get on with
8 the next witness, and whilst the next witness's evidence
9 is being given, they will try and restore the link, and
10 if they can, we will go back to Nigeria after
11 Mr Devorik.
12 (Jury present)
13 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Members of the jury, we have not
14 been able to restore the link, but they are going to
15 work at it while we continue with the next witness, and
16 when the next witness is complete, we hope we will be
17 able to get back to Nigeria.
18 MR HOUGH: Sir, the next witness is Mr Devorik.
19 MR ROBERTO AUGUSTO DEVORIK (sworn)
20 Questions from MR HOUGH
21 MR HOUGH: Is your name Roberto Augusto Devorik?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. As I have explained to you, my name is Jonathan Hough
24 and I am asking questions first on behalf of the Coroner
25 today. I think you are an Argentine citizen and

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1 an executive of the fashion company Polo Ralph Lauren.
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. You have come here at quite some personal inconvenience,
4 for which we are very grateful.
5 A. Thank you.
6 Q. Before her death, you were a friend of the late Princess
7 of Wales?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. And you also knew Dodi Al Fayed, I think, independently,
10 but not as well.
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. In August of 2005, you gave a statement to the British
13 police, I think. Is that right?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Do you have a copy of that statement with you?
16 A. With me in front of me, sir.
17 Q. Thank you. Now dealing with other accounts you have
18 given over the years, in November 2003 I think you gave
19 an interview to -- it was El Clarin newspaper; is that
20 right?
21 A. It could be possible. I do not have the dates in my
22 mind. Ten years have passed, but if you refresh me,
23 refresh my mind, I will go ahead.
24 Q. This may refresh your memory. I think the timing of the
25 interview was shortly after Mr Burrell had published

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1 a note left by the Princess regarding certain fears she
2 had.
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Does that bring it to mind? Your comments to the press
5 were immediately picked up by press around the world,
6 including the Sydney Morning Herald. Other than
7 interviews around that time, have you given any other
8 interviews about your friendship with the Princess?
9 A. I have given interviews about my great memories of the
10 Princess. I have never written a book. I have been
11 quoted in many books without my authorisation. In the
12 case of this Australian newspaper that you are
13 mentioning to me, I have never been in the country of
14 Australia and I never gave an interview to an Australian
15 journalist.
16 Q. Thank you. This is a question which is being asked
17 generally: have you received any payment for your
18 account of events?
19 A. I would never accept it. The Princess of Wales was
20 a friend of mine.
21 Q. I assume it's therefore right that you are not expecting
22 any payment in the future.
23 A. Not at all, and I have put from my money to be here
24 today.
25 Q. Thank you. Dealing with the background, I think you

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1 lived in London for approximately 30 years up to 1999
2 when you left.
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. I think you first met the Princess -- you record it in
5 your statement as being in 1981, before her engagement
6 to Prince Charles.
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. The engagement was on 24th February 1981, so your
9 meeting must have been very early in 1981.
10 A. To be honest, I don't recall. It was end of summer.
11 Q. Although your relationship originally began
12 professionally -- you arranged for some showings of
13 dresses for her -- it developed over time into
14 friendship?
15 A. A good one.
16 Q. I think you were also a friend of Lady Elsa Bowker,
17 somebody the jury have heard about.
18 A. Yes, very close to her.
19 Q. And she was an extremely close friend to the Princess of
20 Wales?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. She has now sadly died.
23 A. Unfortunately.
24 Q. Now in terms of your meetings with the Princess of
25 Wales, in your statement you say that these took place

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1 about once or twice a month.
2 A. On average.
3 Q. Was that a consistent regularity through the time that
4 you knew her or were there gaps and periods where you
5 saw her much more regularly, much less regularly?
6 A. It's very difficult to answer because the life of the
7 Princess was a very irregular one.
8 Q. I think you sometimes met at your house, which was in
9 Holland Park --
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. -- sometimes at Kensington Palace and sometimes at
12 social functions.
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. In your statement you give an account, which the jury
15 have heard from a number of other people, that the
16 Princess kept groups of friends in hermetically sealed
17 groups, separate from each other.
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. That's what you remember as well, is it?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. You knew Lady Bowker, but you didn't know very many of
22 her other confidants?
23 A. Well, I knew some of them, but it was on the character
24 of the Princess to protect us one from each other and to
25 take advice from each of us in different cubbyholes.

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1 I know -- I have to say I know Lucia Flecha de Lima and
2 I know Lady Rosa Monckton and I knew Lord Palumbo, but
3 we had never been put in a room all together at the same
4 time.
5 Q. Those people whom you have just mentioned were also all
6 friends and confidants of the Princess?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I think you also say in your witness statement that you
9 knew she had a very strong affection for Paul Burrell.
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Incidentally, have you ever had cause to read
12 Mr Burrell's books?
13 A. I bought them in -- I live in the States. I bought
14 them, I opened them and I closed them. Sorry.
15 Q. Did you cast your eyes over any pages before you closed
16 them?
17 A. To be honest, no. The only book that I read thoroughly
18 was Sally Bedell Smith, which was the first book ever
19 written on the Princess after her death. Even
20 Patrick Jephson, who I respect as a human being, I have
21 it, but I never opened his book.
22 Q. I think you also knew of her relationship with
23 Hasnat Khan, although you never met Dr Khan.
24 A. No, I have to make a correction. I think I met, shall
25 we call like very briefly, Dr Khan. It's explained here

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1 in the deposition. Perhaps it's my fault to be so fast
2 in my conversation because they were excellent, the
3 people who interviewed me. But I explained I made
4 a mistake one day to go to visit Diana at the Palace.
5 We were working on a project together and
6 I understood -- shall we say it was a Tuesday -- and
7 I understood -- no, I went on a Tuesday, it was supposed
8 to be on a Wednesday, and I wanted always to go to have
9 tea at the Palace because they have the best cucumber
10 sandwiches in England.
11 I arrived, and Paul opened me the door and was
12 extremely surprised to see me because I always called
13 before -- it's my way of announcing. I would not knock
14 doors or go to the Palace and say "I am here". He said
15 "Wait a second", and I feel very unease, and always
16 I was very at ease at the Palace.
17 He ran the stairs up, and he said, "No, no, the
18 Princess is waiting for you", and I went in and she
19 said, "Roberto, it was tomorrow, not today". I said,
20 "What is the matter? Are you busy? Do you have to go
21 out? Shall I come tomorrow?"; "No, no, no, let us have
22 a tea, but briefly because I have to receive somebody
23 for a charity".
24 I have a tea, we spoke about our -- the subject we
25 have to discuss, and she had this extraordinary good

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1 grace that, through my experience, not all the members
2 of the Royal Family have, to come down and take you to
3 the car, walk with you to your car in the courtyard of
4 Kensington Palace. She would follow you to the car.
5 The moment she opened the door, this gentleman faces
6 me, and I look at him and he was -- with all my respect,
7 he was not a kind of Brad Pitt or something of the sort,
8 and I looked and I said to her -- she said "Go, go, go",
9 and that was Diana's humour. She didn't want to tell me
10 who he was. Then a week later or four days later,
11 I don't remember, I spoke with Paul and said, "Who is
12 this man?", and he explained me who he was, and that was
13 my brief encounter with Dr Khan.
14 Q. I fear you have guaranteed your placed in the newspapers
15 tomorrow with "no Brad Pitt".
16 A. I am very sorry for the Khan family.
17 Q. You have also said in your statement at page 8 -- and
18 again this is something we have heard from others --
19 that the Princess's friends sometimes fell out of
20 grace -- these are your words -- with her and then were
21 sometimes, after a period of time out in the cold,
22 welcomed back.
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. You have said that this happened to you. The account
25 you give in your statement was that the Princess

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1 arranged a charity sale of some of her dresses, you
2 recommended a particular way of holding the auction --
3 A. Can I correct you there? She didn't. It was
4 Prince William. It was an idea of Prince William,
5 a brilliant idea, that the dresses of Her Royal Highness
6 at the time -- Her Royal Highness -- was not using to
7 auction it for her number one charity. It was AIDS
8 Crisis Trust, who I was part of it with
9 Miss Margaret Litman, who was a very close American
10 friend of the Princess and head of the AIDS Crisis
11 Trust, and I thought it was a brilliant idea. That was
12 in a lunch we had with her, Lady Bowker and Mrs Litman.
13 Q. I think you have said in your statement that you fell
14 out of favour when you recommended one particular
15 auction house rather than another? We don't need to go
16 into the details.
17 A. Yes, correct.
18 Q. And that your time out of favour ended after you
19 exchanged Christmas cards. Now, I just want to pick up
20 one point of detail because it may be asked in relation
21 to the question of how close you were to the Princess at
22 the time of her death. The charity auction was in
23 June 1997.
24 A. Right.
25 Q. So did you fall out of favour in the previous year,

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1 1996 --
2 A. When she was preparing that.
3 Q. I see.
4 A. If you read in my report, it was not because she changed
5 houses, because I loved both of those houses. It's
6 because typical Diana -- as much as I love her, she
7 would do -- she has her lows and downs, and at that time
8 she decided to do something else without telling us and
9 I looked like a fool to the other house. But it was
10 part of her charm, if you can say so.
11 Q. So fixing the time you may have fallen out of favour
12 a little in 1996, but throughout 1997 you were back on
13 close terms with her?
14 A. Yes. I said in my report I was working on a huge
15 premiere with her for the Red Cross with the President
16 of the Red Cross at that time, Maria Chammaz, at the
17 Odeon Leicester Square, and she was very helpful and she
18 wanted to do it with me.
19 Q. Before we deal with some episodes you have recounted in
20 your statement, a few general questions. You have said
21 just a few moments ago that the Princess went through
22 highs and lows, and you have said in your statement --
23 this is page 4 for those following -- that there were
24 times when she felt very alone.
25 A. Mm.

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1 Q. Page 5, that there were times when she was very upset by
2 press stories, but also times that she was very upbeat.
3 Is that a fair assessment?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. You say -- this is page 12 of your statement -- that she
6 appeared very happy in the entire year leading up to her
7 death; is that right?
8 A. Yes, in what can one superficially or one can read --
9 you know, sometimes -- we are all human beings, we can
10 read in a way, and I read it that way. I thought her in
11 a -- I saw her glowing.
12 Q. I do not want to go into this in too much detail, but it
13 may be relevant to review some of the things she said at
14 times. You have described her in interviews as being
15 like a "rollercoaster" in her actions and you have also
16 said in your statement that she had a quicksilver
17 temperament and could slip easily from one mood to
18 another.
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. You have also said that she could manipulate people, but
21 without any malice.
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. With that picture in the background, can we deal with
24 some of the episodes you describe? The first one is
25 page 4 of your statement, which is a film premiere you

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1 refer to, with the star of the film, Barbra Streisand.
2 I think that the film premiere you are referring to was
3 the premiere of the film "Prince of Tides". Is that
4 right?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. The Princess attended that on 18th February 1992, and
7 that film involved the topic of marital infidelity, and
8 in your statement you say this, that during
9 a conversation with Ms Streisand, the Princess indicated
10 that her in-laws, a rather lowly term for them -- but
11 "My in-laws think I'm mad. My husband agrees with
12 them", and that he wanted her to be treated in a home.
13 Are those comments that you ascribe to the Princess
14 accurate?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Those comments were made in front of Ms Streisand, were
17 they?
18 A. Yes, on the side of Ms Streisand. Ms Streisand ask her
19 if she was happy and then she answered that.
20 Q. In terms of this year, 1992, you don't refer in your
21 statement to correspondence, which several witnesses
22 have described, between Prince Philip, one of the
23 in-laws, and Diana from June to October 1992, written in
24 affectionate terms. Did Diana ever mention that
25 correspondence to you?

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1 A. Not at all.
2 Q. Then in your statement you, on the following page, refer
3 to some comments which the Princess made at different
4 times, some which can be dated, some which can't. First
5 of all you say that she once said this to you:
6 "Roberto, I feel very lonely. My friends for one
7 reason or another get destroyed."
8 You asked her what she meant and she explained that
9 stories were sometimes printed in the press to her and
10 her friends' detriment. Can you say roughly when she
11 made that remark?
12 A. I don't recall the date, to be honest, but she mentioned
13 not only that time -- several times in conversations,
14 during lunches, she would say she wanted -- she didn't
15 want to be so close to anybody.
16 Q. She used the word "destroyed" in relation to press
17 stories being put out, did she?
18 A. Correct. I think that's what she meant.
19 Q. Now, further down page 5, you say that you recall
20 an occasion when she called you on a mobile phone --
21 A. Right.
22 Q. -- and told you that she wanted to "leave the cage", and
23 you date that remark to a time that she was going to
24 stay with Madame Flecha de Lima; is that right?
25 A. Right. At that time she was spending some evenings at

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1 Mrs Flecha de Lima's house, the Embassy.
2 Q. We know from Madame Flecha de Lima's evidence that she
3 left the Embassy -- she and her husband moved on to
4 Washington in November 1993.
5 A. Right. This was before.
6 Q. So it must have been before that time.
7 A. Yes, I know exactly when they left because then the
8 Barbosas came as ambassadors, who were friends of mine.
9 Q. Further down the page, you recall an incident when the
10 Princess left the Palace without any security and
11 without telling anyone and her telling you afterwards
12 that she thought she was being followed; is that right?
13 A. Yes, she told me that. I never ...
14 Q. In your statement, you talk about her telling you that
15 someone was following her without specifying who. Is
16 that what she said to you?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Are you able to date that remark?
19 A. No. I said it at the time to the police that I don't
20 remember. I really tried, but I don't.
21 Q. Moving on, then, to an episode at the end of 1995. Now
22 we know that the Panorama interview with Martin Bashir,
23 the now famous interview, was broadcast on
24 20th November 1995, and I think on the very evening the
25 interview was broadcast you went to a social occasion

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1 with the Princess --
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. -- and you were due to accompany her on a trip to
4 Argentina in the days that followed the broadcast of the
5 interview.
6 A. The day after. I was in London the day that the
7 interview took place.
8 Q. You were going to Argentina --
9 A. The following day. The very day after.
10 Q. At the social function on the day that the interview was
11 broadcast, I think you recall a fashion editor asking
12 the Princess whether she would be able to leave the
13 country, presumably on the trip to Argentina; is that
14 right?
15 A. Yes, the same night she asked her.
16 Q. What did the Princess say in response to that?
17 A. What I put -- I put it on the -- on my ...
18 Q. It's page 6 of your statement.
19 A. Yes. That was when she said, "When you have told the
20 truth, you are not afraid of anything. I can leave or
21 I am going", and she came.
22 Q. So the fashion editor asks "Can you leave the country
23 after this?", and she says --
24 A. It was a very strong problem. We were all taken by
25 shock. At that time that this was told to her, I even

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1 hadn't seen the programme on television. I didn't know
2 that programme existed.
3 Q. But the Princess's reaction to that question was "When
4 you have told the truth, you are not afraid of
5 anything"?
6 A. Exactly.
7 Q. On the trip in Buenos Aires you recount another episode,
8 and this was, I think, after the Princess had had
9 a telephone conversation with her son, Prince William;
10 is that right?
11 A. That's right, the same night she arrived to
12 Buenos Aires.
13 Q. What was that conversation? Can you recount that
14 conversation?
15 A. I can't recount the conversation because I was not there
16 with her. That night we gave a dinner at the British
17 Embassy in Buenos Aires under the graciousness of
18 Sir Peter Hall, and Diana was -- I was bringing her
19 stairs down for the gala dinner and he make us wait and
20 wait. And I asked what happened to her. She said she
21 was speaking with Prince William. Then she said that,
22 in -- that she spoke with Prince William and she saw
23 that everybody was very annoyed in London and she said,
24 "After this, they want to kill me", like, you know,
25 "I really made a big one here".

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1 Q. The way you recount it, in a relatively florid way --
2 A. I am sorry, but --
3 Q. Was this a joke or a serious remark?
4 A. With Diana it was very difficult to -- you know, Diana
5 was Diana. I am sorry, you never knew if she was
6 speaking seriously or not. Obviously she had great fun
7 that night and we stayed up until 2 or 3 in the morning.
8 I don't think, you know -- up to -- it's not to me to
9 judge this.
10 Q. When she said, "After this, they are going to kill me",
11 did you ask who "they" were?
12 A. Not in that opportunity.
13 Q. Could you look at page 6 of your statement?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You are quoted in the statement as saying this in
16 response to her comment, "Who? The Prince of Wales?",
17 and Diana saying something in response. Is that
18 something you remember now?
19 A. Yes, let me see because it was so many years ago.
20 (Pause) Yes, I said, "Who? The Prince ...", because
21 there were jokes on the separation or what was going on,
22 and I said "Who? The Prince of Wales?", knowing that
23 she would reply "no" because I know she loved him
24 dearly. Then she answered me -- she didn't have --
25 since I have recalled my relationship with her, she

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1 always had a very tough view on Prince Philip.
2 Q. So what did she say when you said, "Who? The
3 Prince of Wales?" in jest?
4 A. She said what I said here exactly, Prince Philip --
5 Q. The jury don't have the statements.
6 A. Sorry.
7 "I am sure that Prince Philip is involved with the
8 security service. After this, they are going to get rid
9 of me."
10 But that was, as I said, her point of view, we came
11 downstairs and the party continued.
12 Q. She went straight down to the party?
13 A. She went straight down to the party.
14 Q. Again, was that remark a serious one, in jest or could
15 you not tell again?
16 A. To be honest, I was not the Princess of Wales.
17 Q. Moving on to the next episode, which is actually on
18 page 4 of your statement, you refer to a lunch with
19 an actress called Isabelle Huppert, and you say that
20 this lunch took place at a time when she was appearing
21 as "Mary, Queen of Scots" in a play by Schiller at the
22 National Theatre.
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. That occasion when she was appearing was spring of 1996,
25 and I think that there was a lunch at that time which

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1 you arranged for the Princess and Isabelle Huppert.
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. In your statement, you recall a remark made by the
4 Princess over lunch to the actress, and you say that,
5 when the actress insisted Diana come to watch the play,
6 she said:
7 "I really would prefer not to see the play. I know
8 the ending and I will finish like Mary, Queen of Scots,
9 and be chopped. I am an inconvenience for them."
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Is that a remark you remember her saying?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. That was said to Isabelle Huppert, was it?
14 A. Yes, and there were other guests at the table including
15 Lady Bowker.
16 Q. In your statement you say this:
17 "I asked her who hated her so much. She told me
18 three names that she feared -- Nicholas Soames,
19 Robert Fellowes, her brother-in-law, and Prince Philip.
20 She said of Robert Fellowes 'He hates me. He will do
21 anything to get me out of the Royals. He cost me the
22 friendship with my sister' and added 'Prince Philip
23 wants to see me dead'."
24 Are those all things she said at the time?
25 A. Yes, and she talked about her premonitions. I think

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1 that if you take it on a basis of these, it's stronger
2 that what the reality was. I think that the problem
3 with Diana is that I was never -- how can I put it to
4 the Court? I travelled with her, I had been on official
5 trips with her. I never feared any irregularity or
6 anything that could make me feel uncomfortable.
7 Then Diana had love and hates -- with all my love
8 for her and respect, we all have defects -- and I think
9 during periods of her life, she conditioned herself to
10 go and get people who -- because she was in her low, she
11 didn't plan in her mind or study in her mind the
12 consequences or -- how can I put it -- the reality of
13 things. She would say things like that and then, for
14 three months or six months, she would never open the
15 month again and then somebody else would get in
16 disgrace. I personally at that time -- or until today,
17 I would not take it terribly serious on the matter of
18 the personality of the Princess.
19 Q. You use that word "premonitions" as something that she
20 talked about.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That suggests a prediction, specific concern that
23 something specific would happen.
24 A. Yes, she was visiting mediums, specialist doctors,
25 herbal doctors, many, many people who sometimes she

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1 invited me to go with her. I personally don't believe,
2 with many respect for them, and -- but she told me that,
3 and she told to Richard Kay this story also, that she
4 had these recurring nightmare that she was at the
5 Abbey -- well her funeral at Westminster Abbey -- and
6 they were at the Coronation and they brought the crowns
7 and of course the pages put the Crown on Prince Charles
8 and Prince Charles put it on and he turned to her and
9 said "Be careful because it's extremely heavy", and
10 then, when her turn came in, she put it on and she
11 started to choke, she couldn't see, she couldn't see,
12 she couldn't see, she couldn't see, and she woke up.
13 I said "What do you think that means?" She said
14 "I will never be Queen". That's what Diana was all
15 about. At that time she was not going to be Queen; at
16 other moments she said "I am the future mother of the
17 King of England". The words -- Diana has -- I repeat
18 myself here -- her highs and lows and I don't blame her.
19 She suffered a lot in her life.
20 Q. So you were talking about what she said about
21 Prince Philip, Nicholas Soames, Robert Fellowes, and you
22 seem to connect that to these premonitions,
23 nightmares --
24 A. Not necessarily.
25 Q. You don't think --

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1 A. No, I don't. I think that they were the flavour of the
2 month from my point of view. I do not have any
3 recollection of that. I don't know the gentlemen except
4 crossing them in corridors.
5 Q. So you simply regard those comments about those people
6 as being whether they were in favour or out?
7 A. I think they were out of favour of the Princess.
8 Q. Moving on to another episode. This is a trip to
9 Italy --
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. -- to Rome that you went on with her in June of 1996.
12 This is page 6 of your statement. We know that the
13 Princess was in Rome on 20th June 1996. You accompanied
14 her, as did Lady Sarah McCorquodale, her sister, and
15 another friend. Now this would have been two months
16 before her divorce from Prince Charles was finalised and
17 I think first of all you remember a conversation that
18 you had in a VIP airport lounge on the way to Italy.
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Who else was in the lounge at that time?
21 A. Her, Lady Sarah McCorquodale, Mr David Wynn, and I don't
22 recall who was the officer who was with us because, at
23 that time -- I do not want to mislead the Court --
24 I think it was the first trip that we went without --
25 where we were speaking before -- security. We had

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1 an enormous security by the Italian Government, but not
2 when we left there.
3 The airport is near London. I don't recall the
4 name. But in the VIP room there were those pictures,
5 a picture of the -- Her Majesty and a picture of
6 Prince Philip.
7 Q. What did the Princess say in relation to the portrait of
8 Prince Philip?
9 A. That -- in a way, I am not -- I have to recall it.
10 Q. It's page 7 of your statement. Perhaps I can read it to
11 you and ask you to comment. You say that:
12 "She pointed to the portrait of Prince Philip and
13 said 'He really hates me and would like to see me
14 disappear'."
15 A. Yes, correct, and then about the Queen, she said -- but
16 in here is perhaps not in the manner -- she said she had
17 a great admiration for the Queen and she said, "Even if
18 my son would commit a crime, I would always defend my
19 son", like she understood how faithful the Queen was for
20 Prince Charles.
21 Q. So you think that Prince Philip was out of favour at
22 this time as well, do you?
23 A. Yes, I think Prince Philip was coming in and out of
24 favour on her life quite often.
25 Q. Now, I am now going to quote another conversation, quote

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1 a passage from your statement, where you describe
2 a conversation on the plane. I will cut out one
3 sentence from the statement deliberately for the
4 sensitivity of somebody else, which is an irrelevant
5 matter.
6 "Whilst on the plane we talked about how well we
7 were being treated on the flight. Diana then said,
8 'Well cross your fingers, any minute they will blow us
9 up'. I said 'Christ sake, don't say these things'.
10 Diana said 'It will be everywhere in the press tomorrow.
11 The Royal Princess with an unknown Argentine. Her
12 sister and her English lover'. I said 'You really
13 believe that?' Diana replied 'Yes, in a helicopter,
14 a car or a thing like this', meaning a small private
15 aircraft. I said to Diana 'It worries me that you keep
16 talking about people blowing you up. Why did you
17 believe this?' Diana replied 'Roberto, you are so
18 naive. Don't you see they took my HRH title and now
19 they are slowly taking my kids? They are now letting me
20 know when I can have the children'. I advised her to
21 get legal help with this matter. I said to Diana 'Tell
22 me why they are going to kill you'. Diana replied 'They
23 don't want to understand me. I am a threat in their
24 eyes. They only use me when they need me for official
25 functions and then drop me again in the darkness'.

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1 "Diana continued 'They are not going to kill me by
2 poisoning me or in a big plane where others will get
3 hurt. They will either do it when I'm on a small plane,
4 in a car, when I am driving or in a helicopter. The
5 only time I really feel safe is when I am in the USA.
6 Everybody in America likes me. I am very popular there.
7 The Establishment doesn't like me and there is no
8 Establishment there'."
9 Is that an accurate account?
10 A. Yes, but it was in a -- you said it in a more some
11 sombre way. She made me laugh -- let me tell you --
12 when she told me that I was an unknown Argentine and
13 I said at the time "You should have read Tatler.
14 I appear sometimes on my own merit". But apart from
15 that, the other thing -- she made a mistake there
16 because -- I couldn't stay with Scotland Yard for as
17 long as ... She made a mistake and said that there is
18 not establishment in America; America has establishment.
19 Q. I don't think we need to debate that.
20 A. Exactly. What I am saying is that again, in my
21 statement and in my memory for the Princess of Wales,
22 what I would like to achieve is that she has a certain
23 anger towards things, but at the same time she was not
24 a malicious woman, and I think that deep down the only
25 thing -- and I would go on and on -- is that she has

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1 this -- I don't know -- feeling that she was going to be
2 killed, where from my point of view I have never -- and
3 I have been with her -- never felt an inch -- and I told
4 that to Scotland Yard who are here today -- I never felt
5 any, any, any sense of something wrong.
6 Q. You said that I read this passage out in a rather sombre
7 way.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How would you characterise her tone --
10 A. Well, I characterised the tone -- as you once said,
11 I have been serialised on television, I have been called
12 by 11,000 -- it was the tenth anniversary of the
13 Princess, I did not want to do; Larry King, I didn't
14 want to do; Oprah Winfrey. Every time they interview
15 me, they said, "Do you think that she has been killed?",
16 and I said "First of all it's not on me to answer
17 a question like that". It's for the Coroner and all of
18 you to decide something like that.
19 Q. But specifically, we are just trying to get a flavour
20 for this conversation, what tone --
21 A. I thought it was fun because we were going in a way --
22 Diana had a feeling that she was going to be killed, no
23 doubt about, and she expressed it in the way, in
24 a helicopter, in a car, in a plane, in a small plane,
25 but on the other hand, if you continue reading, she did

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1 things that -- without fear. You know, I was not the
2 Princess of Wales. She was very not easy to handle.
3 Q. Can I pick up on the last thing you said about her doing
4 things without fear? I think later in that visit to
5 Rome, she went to a famous cafe with you in open without
6 any bodyguards or security.
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. In fact that was widely covered in the press.
9 A. Enormously covered in the press.
10 Q. Turning to her fears more generally and what you have
11 already been saying about her feeling that she would be
12 killed, Mr Burrell said yesterday -- this is page 153 of
13 the transcript -- that she was preoccupied with death.
14 Is that something you would endorse?
15 A. Well, I would like somebody to explain me -- I am not
16 trying to play the game here -- but what is the
17 difference between preoccupied with death or have a --
18 what I said, she was thinking all the time on death.
19 You know, I don't know what is the difference, the
20 technical difference, sir, about the two things.
21 I think there was something there that she was worried
22 about.
23 Q. In the incidents we have been through, you have made
24 some references to Prince Philip. According to another
25 friend of hers, that's Simone Simmons, she said in 1994

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1 to Simone Simmons that there was an Arab conspiracy
2 against her and that the Saudis had issued a fatwa
3 against her. Was that a threat she ever mentioned to
4 you?
5 A. Not at all. First of all let me tell you, I would
6 like -- sorry to interrupt you -- when she was going
7 into such strong conversations, it's in my nature not to
8 volunteer more things because we were living in a time
9 that she was extremely concerned that the Palace was
10 bugged. She changed telephones all the time. I have
11 a special number that unfortunately -- but Paul Burrell
12 should give it to you -- very few had of her. It was on
13 my own interest not to ask questions because it's not in
14 my nature.
15 You know, in my nature was all the extraordinary
16 things that unfortunately are not in these papers
17 because it's not what is relevant today here, but I had
18 an enormously rich life with her. That -- for me this
19 is part of my life with her, but it's not really what my
20 life was about with her. I don't know if correct
21 what --
22 Q. You are suggesting that these individual incidents don't
23 give a fair reflection of your relationship with the
24 Princess and how she was?
25 A. Not at all. This is to collaborate with the Coroner at

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1 the time and Scotland Yard on matters relevant to you
2 people.
3 Q. Can I just check a few other things in relation to
4 fears? She told her lawyer in October 1995 that there
5 was a conspiracy to harm her, to make way for a marriage
6 of Prince Charles with Miss Legge-Bourke. Is that
7 something she mentioned to you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. When did she mention that? Was it around the same time
10 or a different time?
11 A. I don't recall, to be honest, and there was also -- if
12 you can help, there was a visit she wanted to do to
13 a hospital.
14 Q. In a note published by Mr Burrell -- and he put it out
15 in October 2003 -- she refers to Prince Charles planning
16 an attack on her. Did she ever indicate to you a fear
17 that Prince Charles might be responsible for some threat
18 to her?
19 A. Let me explain to the Coroner, first, and to the jury,
20 that under oath -- and it's my belief that the man she
21 loved until her close her eyes was the Prince of Wales,
22 not because it's the right thing to say; it's because in
23 several occasions, in public functions, in our trip to
24 Argentina, that none of you were there -- and perhaps
25 there was MI5 or MI6 or whatever, Argentine private

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1 police and whatever -- we had a conversation about the
2 Prince of Wales.
3 Once in my home, during a lunch, who we can provide
4 the names if you need it, somebody make the bad taste to
5 criticise the Prince of Wales. I would not have liked
6 to be that person in the way she turned. She said, "He
7 is the father of my children and he is going to be the
8 future King of England and if I have a difference with
9 him, it's my problem with him, but nobody should make
10 mockery about him".
11 Q. You have said that you travelled on some rather
12 important trips with her --
13 A. For me important. I don't know for her.
14 Q. -- at some key moments, certainly.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you ever feel threatened yourself?
17 A. Not at all, and we were in high speeds, we were in cars,
18 with enormous police. I had been in her own car with
19 her alone, chatting. She had a BMW. It was totally
20 like a bunker. And I tell you, that's -- for me this
21 conspiracy theory for me is something that I don't -- it
22 doesn't get into my mind. I had a great life with her.
23 Q. Specifically were you aware of any special security
24 measures she took in relation to cars or protecting
25 herself?

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1 A. No, even though she cancelled her security at the end,
2 when she separated from Prince Charles. She said she
3 didn't need it, she wanted to be free, she wanted to be
4 happy. I mention in my report here that we used to
5 communicate many times not only with me, as the Court
6 must know at the moment, with -- by letters. I didn't
7 bring any because I don't think they are letters who are
8 relevant to this case, but they were letters full of
9 love, of compassion, and in the only letter that you
10 could say there was something is when she said, "Well,
11 very soon [I did not know that] I will have again my
12 passport", because I think you have a royal passport and
13 a normal passport. "As soon as we have my royal
14 passport, we are going to have fun again". That is the
15 esprit of Diana, Princess of Wales, in my relationship
16 with her.
17 Q. Moving on to a couple of final topics. First of all her
18 relationships with Hasnat Khan and Dodi Al Fayed.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. We know you met Hasnat Khan only fleetingly. Did the
21 Princess ever discuss with you her relationship with
22 him?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You have been quoted as saying that he was the man of
25 her life, Dr Hasnat Khan.

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1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Can you expand on that very briefly?
3 A. Yes. You are absolutely right. I should expand because
4 this is the problem of the press, is that they take your
5 quote and the other -- you should read the letters were
6 smaller than the biggest phrase.
7 I said that after Diana realised that she lost the
8 Prince of Wales at the hands of Camilla Parker-Bowles,
9 she realised -- it was devastating for her, enormously
10 devastating for her. Okay people will say she had
11 lovers, this and the other one, but, you know -- let me
12 say something, that I don't care if it's in the papers
13 tomorrow. She was love --
14 Q. Can I pause you? We are trying here to focus upon the
15 last part of her life.
16 A. Yes, and this is a very important thing. She said to
17 me, "I have been loved by white people, black people,
18 gay people, Jewish people, Catholic people. The only
19 man I really love in my life has not loved me, and I
20 realised the only man after him who give me peace and
21 give me love and give me everything I need spiritual is
22 Dr Khan". I said "Are you sure because you belong to
23 two different cultures?", and she said, "Yes, but, you
24 know, he is my man, I like the man". Believe me, she
25 had other candidates at the time who were much richer

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1 and more famous or better-looking.
2 Q. You knew also about the relationship with Dodi Al Fayed
3 at the time that that was going on.
4 A. Yes, I knew it -- I knew Dodi from before -- I knew it,
5 but I was not in London at the time. I had an operation
6 of my achilles tendon and I was sent to stay in
7 Buenos Aires because I have more help at home, and
8 I started to read the news and I was in touch with
9 Lady Bowker and I started to know what was going on.
10 Q. You quote Lady Bowker as saying this -- it's an indirect
11 quotation -- you say that you know that she