13 March 2008 - Afternoon session
16 (1.30 pm)
17 (Jury present)
18 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We have Madame Le Tellier. Is
19 that right? Can you hear us?
20 A. Yes.
21 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you.
22 MR HOUGH: Could the witness please be sworn or make
23 an affirmation.
24 MME JOSIANE LE TELLIER (affirmed)
25 Questions from MR HOUGH
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1 MR HOUGH: Is your name Josiane Le Tellier?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. My name is Jonathan Hough and I shall ask you questions
4 first on behalf of the Coroner.
5 I think that in 1997, you were the owner of
6 a lesbian bar called Le Champmele on Rue Chabanais in
7 Paris?
8 A. And I still am.
9 Q. In that capacity, I think you met and got to know
10 slightly Henri Paul?
11 A. Well, actually he was my neighbour, he lived about
12 20 metres away from me.
13 Q. Yes, I think his house or apartment was on the Rue des
14 Petits Champs and the Rue Chabanais is just off the
15 Rue des Petits Champs?
16 A. Yes, he lived about 20 to 30 metres away from
17 Rue Chabanais, was on number 4 Rue Chabanais, and he was
18 just up the restaurant of Mrs Long(?).
19 Q. I think for that reason you gave a statement to the
20 French police on 5th September 1997, so five days after
21 M Paul's death?
22 A. Absolutely.
23 Q. Other than that statement, have you ever given
24 a statement or account to anybody, formal or to the
25 media, or anyone else over the past 10 or 11 years?
87
1 A. No.
2 Q. In terms of the opening hours of the bar, I think you
3 told the French police that it was open from 4 o'clock
4 in the afternoon to 2.30 in the morning on weekdays and
5 until 5 o'clock in the morning on weekends?
6 A. Yes, absolutely.
7 Q. You said that you knew M Paul because of where he lived.
8 When did you first meet him and get to know him?
9 A. It's difficult to say, first of all he was a customer
10 and then we became friendly to each other and he was
11 very knowledgeable about plenty of things, he -- we used
12 to exchange books and we used to meet in the streets by
13 chance also. Very often he parked his car right in
14 front of my bar.
15 Q. I think you told the French police that you had known
16 him since 1991, so early 1990s; is that right?
17 A. Yes, it must be the case, I imagine that was when he
18 first moved in, because before that obviously I didn't
19 know him.
20 Q. Did he sometimes come into your bar for a drink?
21 A. Yes, rarely, from time to time, not every day, because
22 very often I organised cabaret evenings, where people
23 come to sing, and so he came to those kind of evenings
24 from time to time.
25 Q. Did he ever speak to you about the work he did?
88
1 A. No, as a matter of fact, never. I got to know what he
2 was doing when he died. Before that, I didn't know of
3 anything, I just knew that he dealt with security
4 matters, but that was all.
5 Q. But you knew, I think, that he worked at the Ritz?
6 A. Yes, that he was dealing with the security of the Ritz.
7 Q. The French police have recorded you saying in your
8 statement that he told you that he worked for
9 a billionaire at the Ritz and that he was a "pilote" for
10 the owner of the Ritz; is that right?
11 A. Yes, and also that he would be the pilot of a plane from
12 time to time; he loved flying planes.
13 Q. Yes, I just wanted to clarify one thing, the statement
14 says that he told you it was the "pilote" to the owner
15 of the Ritz, now "pilote" can either mean driver of
16 a car or pilot of a plane. Which did you understand it
17 to mean.
18 A. He was the pilot of the aircraft, you know, when from
19 time to time Mr Al Fayed would go some places with his
20 plane.
21 Q. Now, what impression did you form of M Paul's character
22 over the years?
23 A. Well, he was discreet, generous, brilliant, I have
24 a piano, and once you know, he played a couple of tunes
25 and said, you know, he played the piano from time to
89
1 time not very seriously, and then I learnt that he was
2 a very recognised musician, first prize at violin,
3 et cetera.
4 Q. I think you were aware that he had had a serious
5 relationship which was no longer going on in the time
6 before his death with a young woman who had a young
7 child?
8 A. Yes, actually, I met her, and also I used to see the
9 daughter of that woman who he was taking care of very
10 generously, even though she was not his daughter.
11 Q. I think you told the French police that after that
12 relationship you weren't aware of any serious
13 relationship, just brief flings that he may have had?
14 A. Yes, that's right.
15 Q. When M Paul would come into your bar, what kind of
16 drinks would he have?
17 A. Beer, Coca sometimes. He didn't drink very much, he
18 just liked to talk, to discuss things, and also he very
19 often came with several newspapers, Le Monde, et cetera,
20 and he was just reading them.
21 Q. Did he smoke?
22 A. Quit smoking but he resumed smoking some months before
23 his death; just like me he used to smoke cigarillos.
24 Q. Now, I think that you actually saw Henri Paul on the
25 evening before he died; is that right?
90
1 A. Yes, he parked his car right in front of my bar, and
2 just came in, that was between 8.30 and 9, to have
3 a chat, he didn't drink anything, and he said that he
4 was on call and that he would be back around midnight.
5 Q. You have told the French police that he had come into
6 your bar at around 10 o'clock at night, so that's
7 a little different in time than the account you have
8 just given. Do you think the account you gave 11 years
9 ago is more likely to be right, or the one you have just
10 given?
11 A. Yeah, that was maybe 9.30, 10.
12 Q. When you saw him on that occasion, was he carrying
13 anything or did he have anything with him?
14 A. I can't remember. From time to time, he would take
15 a takeaway from the Chinese restaurant next door, but
16 that evening I don't know whether he had anything.
17 Q. When you saw him that evening, did he seem as normal or
18 was there anything unusual about his appearance, his
19 speech, anything like that?
20 A. No, he was just normal, he was just as usual.
21 Q. Other than seeing him pull up in his car on that
22 occasion, or his car being outside on that occasion, can
23 you remember whether his car was outside your bar at any
24 other particular points during that day?
25 A. Well, it's difficult to say because, you know, I work
91
1 during the night-time, so obviously during the daytime
2 I sleep, and I live upstairs from my bar, so I don't
3 necessarily go out but when I went down to the club and
4 looked out the window, it was there.
5 Q. Finally this: in the press over the years, Henri Paul
6 has been presented as an alcoholic. Is that an image
7 you recognise of the person you knew?
8 A. No, no, not at all, you know, from time to time he liked
9 to party just like anybody else, but he was always very
10 clean, elegant, he had a lot of self-control.
11 Q. Were you in fact shocked by the picture of him that you
12 perceived in the press?
13 A. Yes, enormously.
14 MR HOUGH: Thank you very much.
15 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield?
16 MR MANSFIELD: No, thank you.
17 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Keen?
18 MR KEEN: Just a few questions, sir, to supplement.
19 Questions from MR KEEN
20 MR KEEN: Good afternoon, Mademoiselle Le Tellier, my name
21 is Richard Keen and I appear as counsel for the parents
22 of the late Henri Paul.
23 What you actually told the French police on
24 5th September 1997 in your deposition was:
25 "I knew Mr Paul very well as he lived in the same
92
1 area as me. In fact, we had been acquainted since about
2 1991, and in that time, we had developed a good
3 relationship."
4 A. Yes, he was a very nice man, very good company.
5 Q. I think you said: "We talked about everything, he was
6 cultivated, pleasant and liked to joke. He had a very
7 caustic sense of humour that I liked."
8 A. Yes, he liked to joke, I remember once he pretended that
9 he was the barman, and he took some people's order with
10 a tray, et cetera. He was a great guy.
11 Q. You went on to say:
12 "He was completely normal and he was always calm."
13 A. Yes, and also he had a sense of responsibility.
14 Q. You said that on that particular day, Saturday
15 30th August, you saw Henri at about 2200 hours:
16 "He came into the bar and shouted out, 'See you
17 soon, girls'. We saw him take his car, a black Austin
18 Mini that he habitually parked at our establishment. He
19 waved and drove off very calmly."
20 Was that true?
21 A. Yes, he was just as usual.
22 Q. At the end of your statement, you said to the French
23 police:
24 "I am shocked by the portrait that the press has
25 painted of Mr Paul, he was not an alcoholic, he was
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1 a good man".
2 A. Yes, according to me, yes.
3 Q. That was the man you had known very well since 1991,
4 Mademoiselle Le Tellier?
5 A. No, about 1991, yes, when he moved in next door.
6 MR KEEN: Thank you, Mademoiselle Le Tellier. No further
7 questions, sir.
8 MR CROXFORD: No thank you sir.
9 MR HORWELL: No thank you sir.
10 MR HOUGH: Nothing further from me. Thank you very much.
11 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you very much, that's all
12 we require of you, thank you for coming.
13 We can certainly now shut down the link. I know
14 that there is one statement from Martin Smith dealing
15 with the Fulham Leisure Holdings litigation which
16 I intend should be read under section 37 in due course,
17 but I think a time limit has been given by e-mail of
18 5.30 this evening to make any representations about it.
19 MR BURNETT: Yes, sir, we had better defer that.
20 Sir, the other matter that we can deal with this
21 afternoon with your leave, as Mr Hodges is now here, is
22 an excursion into the inquiries made by him to see
23 whether there were any records of an investigation by
24 the Met into Squidgygate, you will remember that that's
25 a topic that has bubbled to the surface from time to
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1 time.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes. We will have to move the
3 screen from the witness box.
4 MR BURNETT: Yes, and it may be that Mr Hodges would welcome
5 an opportunity to catch his breath and also to be given
6 a copy of his documents.
7 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We will break off for five
8 minutes, members of the jury, at this juncture.
9 (1.56 pm)
10 (A short break)
11 (2.04 pm)
12 (Jury present)
13 MR MARK HODGES (sworn)
14 Questions from MR BURNETT
15 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Do you prefer to sit or stand?
16 A. I will sit, if I may, sir.
17 MR BURNETT: Is your name Mark Hodges?
18 A. Yes, indeed.
19 Q. Are you a former Detective Chief Inspector of the
20 Metropolitan Police?
21 A. That's correct.
22 Q. Were you the Deputy Senior Investigating Officer
23 throughout the Operation Paget investigation into the
24 deaths of the Princess of Wales and Mr Al Fayed?
25 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
95
1 Q. Are you currently technically a coroner's officer,
2 assisting the inquests process?
3 A. I think technically, yes, sir.
4 Q. Mr Hodges, as you know, questions have been asked
5 concerning whether there was any investigation
6 undertaken by the Metropolitan Police Service or by
7 Norfolk Constabulary into the illicit telephone
8 recording of a call between the Princess of Wales and
9 James Gilbey; you are aware that that's been an issue
10 that's floated around?
11 A. Yes, I am.
12 Q. I think you have made some inquiries and investigations
13 on that?
14 A. Yes, sir, since Lord Condon gave his evidence, I caused
15 a number of inquiries to be made and also made a number
16 myself.
17 Q. Obviously, the context of the investigation would have
18 been the coming into the public domain in the second
19 half of 1992 of a telephone conversation recorded on
20 New Year's Eve 1989?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. And we know also that there is that there was another
23 telephone call between the Prince of Wales and Camilla
24 Parker-Bowles which had been recorded in 1989 but which
25 also came into the public domain in the second part of
96
1 1992?
2 A. Yes, sir.
3 Q. Again the context presumably would be this, would it
4 not, that having become aware of those allegations, that
5 one or other Force either unilaterally began
6 an investigation, or was asked to begin
7 an investigation?
8 A. Yes, I would be very doubtful on the unilaterally, just
9 commencing an investigation, sir, but that would be
10 an option, but I think they would obviously commence
11 an investigation if asked to do so, yes.
12 Q. Why would you be doubtful about a unilateral
13 commencement of an investigation in these circumstances?
14 A. Well, the authority, sir, from the people that were
15 affected by this, the four parties, would be sought
16 first, I have no doubt, in practical terms.
17 Q. Because an investigation would inevitably lead to their
18 being interviewed?
19 A. Yes, sir, and their assistance, sir, without it.
20 Q. Were you here for the evidence of Lord Fellowes on the
21 one hand and Sir John Adye on the other?
22 A. Sir John Adye, yes, and I can't recall whether I was
23 here for Lord Fellowes.
24 Q. You recall the documents that Sir John produced that
25 showed official consideration by the Cabinet Secretary
97
1 and the Home Secretary in January 1993?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Leading to a decision effectively by the Home Secretary
4 that there would be no investigation?
5 A. Yes, sir, I do.
6 Q. Now, so far as inquiries within the Metropolitan Police
7 are concerned, what was the overall result of your
8 inquiries?
9 A. Well, extensive inquiries were made, sir, from all the
10 quarters that I could think of, and also others, for
11 instance, Commander Loughborough, who actually runs that
12 particular part of the organisation now. Overall there
13 is no record anywhere within the Metropolitan Police
14 system of a specific investigation taking place.
15 Q. Just now to run through the various outposts of the Met
16 that you went to and looked at, you have mentioned
17 Commander Loughborough, is he the current Commander with
18 responsibility for royalty protection?
19 A. Yes, that's correct, sir, yes.
20 Q. And did you make inquiries of both him and his staff
21 officer?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Did you also make inquiries of Deputy Assistant
24 Commissioner Clarke?
25 A. Yes, sir.
98
1 Q. And why did you think it might be worthwhile asking him?
2 A. He at one time had some responsibility in that area as
3 well, sir.
4 Q. Did you ask Chief Superintendent Stout, who was the late
5 Princess' protection officer?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. We have looked at Deputy Assistant Commissioner Clarke.
8 Did you also go through his staff officer to check the
9 General Registry of the Metropolitan Police, the
10 Counter-Terrorism Command and Special Branch databases,
11 Police National Computer checks, and the Directorate of
12 Professional Standards?
13 A. Yes, sir, particularly important there is the General
14 Registry check, because anything that is substantive
15 that is carried out within the Metropolitan Police will
16 end up there in some form or other.
17 Q. And one can assume that an inquiry into the alleged
18 bugging of members of the Royal Family would be regarded
19 as significant enough to be recorded?
20 A. When I say substantive or significant enough, sir, it
21 depends on the amount of work undertaken by the
22 Metropolitan Police, if it becomes an official
23 investigation then that is where it is destined to go,
24 all crime reports, for instance, and anything of
25 a substantive nature will be held at General Registry
99
1 and recorded there in an index.
2 Q. And there was nothing there?
3 A. Nothing there, sir.
4 Q. Did you also make inquiries of and by the staff officer
5 of the Assistant Commissioner Specialist Operations?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. Similarly with a negative result?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Did you go to the Detective Inspector Royal Palaces
10 Intelligence Unit?
11 A. I did, yes.
12 Q. There, were they able to turn up press cuttings but
13 nothing else?
14 A. Yes, sir, that would be their particular role, and they
15 would not just be there to investigate anything, but
16 that's the only information they had in relation to it.
17 Q. Did you also make an inquiry of and by the staff officer
18 of the Deputy Assistant Commissioner for Serious Crime
19 Directorate?
20 A. I did, yes.
21 Q. And the Acting Commander of, you describe it as SCD6;
22 what's that?
23 A. It's an amalgamation, sir, now, of what at the time was
24 the fraud squad on one hand, but they also took on from
25 a unit that we have heard about here, the Organised
100
1 Crime Group, they took on the responsibility from the
2 Organised Crime Group in relation to inquiries to do
3 with royal palaces, et cetera.
4 Q. So negative there as well?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. And then did you also look at the former Organised Crime
7 Group and make inquiries of officers in that group?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. And last, did you go to Kensington Police Station,
10 Kensington Intelligence Unit and Kensington CID office
11 where similarly there was no record of such
12 an investigation?
13 A. That's correct, yes, sir.
14 Q. So that's the Met. Did you also make some inquiries of
15 Norfolk Constabulary?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. That's because Sandringham is in Norfolk?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. You made inquiries I think of Inspector Coates and
20 Chief Inspector Curtis, who are in charge of the
21 royalty protection for that force; is that right?
22 A. That's correct, sir, that's their responsibility, yes,
23 sir.
24 Q. Neither of them was aware of any investigation being
25 undertaken by Norfolk Constabulary?
101
1 A. And nor anything in their records either.
2 MR BURNETT: Thank you, if you stay there, there will be
3 some more questions.
4 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield.
5 Questions from MR MANSFIELD
6 MR MANSFIELD: Good afternoon, just a few questions.
7 I appreciate that the ambit of your inquiries have
8 been limited to Squidgygate so presumably, if I were to
9 ask you about pulsar inquiries at Kensington Palace, you
10 would not be able to help?
11 A. Yes, sir, I do know they are carried out as a matter of
12 routine, but apart from saying that, sir, I can't help.
13 Additionally, I am told that records in that area are
14 kept for a maximum of seven years, so well outside that
15 timeframe.
16 Q. Then I can't take that forward. Again, in relation to
17 this same area, although I appreciate it wasn't part of
18 the remit, you will now appreciate that there is a note
19 that Lord Fellowes told a meeting in 1993 that there had
20 been tampering at an address related to Prince Charles;
21 were you aware of that or not?
22 A. If you can -- if you have the note, sir, or something
23 similar.
24 Q. No, I didn't appreciate you were about to give evidence.
25 I will not take time.
102
1 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I think it was the address he was
2 staying at the night before the Camillagate matter.
3 MR MANSFIELD: Yes. I do not have the address because it's
4 redacted.
5 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: It was an address in Cheshire,
6 wasn't it?
7 MR MANSFIELD: Yes.
8 A. I am afraid I can't help there.
9 Q. I will leave it.
10 In terms of what I will call the Squidgygate area,
11 of course the police, if they hear a report of a crime,
12 do have the power to investigate it, obviously, don't
13 they?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. And in relation to the potential crime, it has been
16 described, that was made public in the summer of 1992,
17 the question I have is: is there any record of any
18 police authority within the Metropolitan Police asking
19 whether the parties to the cause would be prepared for
20 an investigation as to how it arose?
21 A. Not that I know of, no, sir.
22 MR MANSFIELD: Thank you.
23 MR KEEN: No questions, sir.
24 MR CROXFORD: No, thank you, sir.
25 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Horwell.
103
1 Questions from MR HORWELL
2 MR HORWELL: It's only this, Mr Hodges: you were looking for
3 any evidence to show whether or not a specific
4 investigation had been made in relation to the
5 Squidgygate recordings?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. The evidence that you have compiled in this note does
8 not in any sense contradict the evidence that Mr Meynell
9 has given; is that right?
10 A. That's my understanding, I have listened to him give
11 evidence, sir, and that is correct, yes.
12 Q. The point is this: it was Mr Meynell's evidence that
13 Sandringham was searched on a routine basis?
14 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
15 Q. And the investigation that you carried out was to see
16 whether there was any evidence of a specific
17 investigation in relation to these recordings?
18 A. That's exactly right.
19 MR HORWELL: Thank you.
20 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, I wonder if I might be permitted to ask
21 a supplementary, but I didn't appreciate he was going to
22 say that. I am not complaining about that.
23 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
24 Further questioned by MR MANSFIELD
25 MR MANSFIELD: Just dealing with, therefore, that suggestion
104
1 by Commander Meynell, if there was a regular search, the
2 implication of what he was saying was, there was
3 an arrangement between the Met and Norfolk Police,
4 whereby if a member of the Royal Family was to stay
5 there, it seemed to be the implication, the premises
6 were made secure. Now, that has a number of
7 implications.
8 First of all, are you aware of any records about
9 that matter?
10 A. No, I am not, but that would, to my mind, and I have
11 never worked in this particular area of policing, and my
12 knowledge of it would be that that is a routine matter
13 which may well have been recorded somewhere at the time,
14 but as I say, those sort of records from my inquiries
15 would last for seven years, sir, and I know now that
16 they do regular checks, searches, sweeps, of various
17 premises at various times, and of course in relation to
18 Sandringham I think he was talking about when people
19 went to stay there in advance, and to my knowledge,
20 those records aren't in existence at this moment, sir.
21 Q. Yes, so you are not in a position to confirm whether, in
22 fact, when making secure they necessarily were doing
23 sweeps for bugging devices?
24 A. My, again, limited understanding of what they do, sir,
25 is that is part of a regular search using technical
105
1 devices, helped by the Metropolitan Police, but also
2 physical searches, sir.
3 Q. That's now, but then?
4 A. I have been familiar with pulsar searches at that of
5 period of time, sir, in different contexts, but that is
6 the sort of thing they would be doing there. Aside,
7 I must say, from the electronic sweep perhaps, but
8 certainly a physical search.
9 Q. In fact, you just don't know what it comprised in 1989?
10 A. As a routine, no, sir, I don't.
11 MR MANSFIELD: As a routine you don't.
12 Thank you.
13 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Horwell, do you want to add
14 anything?
15 MR HORWELL: We have Mr Meynell's evidence on the point,
16 that's all.
17 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Burnett?
18 MR BURNETT: No, thank you, sir.
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you very much indeed,
20 Mr Hodges, that's all.
21 Housekeeping
22 MR BURNETT: Sir, we have made rather swifter progress than
23 we had expected to do, to be quite honest, so that's the
24 end of the evidence for today.
25 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
106
1 MR BURNETT: Monday is a day that includes evidence by
2 videolink from Paris, and so will, I think, be a 9.30
3 start. Sir, I should also say that it looks as though
4 it will be a fairly heavy day, and I very much doubt
5 that we will achieve the speed that we have done today,
6 so I hope everyone will bear with us if it turns out to
7 be a slightly longer day than we might want.
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: As to a general progress report,
9 members of the jury, the last scheduled day for evidence
10 is next Tuesday and I have every hope and expectation
11 that that will prove to be correct and that we will
12 finish the evidence on Tuesday.
13 That means that you won't be required, provided that
14 happens, and I can't give you any absolute guarantees
15 about it until we reach Tuesday, but that means that you
16 will not be required for some time thereafter.
17 The next step is that submissions of law are
18 required from the interested persons by 4 o'clock
19 tomorrow, that I have already dealt with on e-mail, or
20 Mr Smith has some time back, and I expect that deadline
21 to be met.
22 I have indicated that there would be an opportunity
23 for any written response, and it seems to me that the
24 time for asking for that would be 10 o'clock on
25 Wednesday morning. I have also indicated to everybody
107
1 by e-mail that if oral submissions were required, the
2 time would be made -- would be allocated for that, but
3 it will have to be a limited time and it will have to
4 be, I think, Thursday of next week, not the ideal day
5 being Maundy Thursday, but we have to live within the
6 problems that we have at the moment.
7 I am sure that counsel can agree to a fair division
8 of the time it deal with those on Thursday.
9 The reason that I am anxious to have completed that
10 before Easter is that it gives me the opportunity of
11 digesting the parties' various arguments and getting on
12 with preparing a summing-up to the jury over the Easter
13 break.
14 My present intention is to begin summing-up on
15 Monday, 31st March which would mean that if everything
16 runs according to plan, members of the jury, you would
17 not be required after we finish on Tuesday until first
18 thing on Monday morning, 31st March.
19 Again that's not an absolutely copper bottom
20 guarantee because problems can arise and it may be that
21 there are things in the submissions that I had not
22 anticipated that will take more time to deal with, but
23 that's the present plan.
24 Does that cause any problems at the Bar?
25 MR MANSFIELD: No, thank you, sir.
108
1 MR KEEN: I think there are just two points I might mention,
2 sir, one of them I mentioned to your counsel,
3 Mr Burnett, earlier today, which is that as you know
4 next week at least one witness is being recalled and
5 another witness who was supposed to be a witness at the
6 beginning of this inquest is now to be called and that
7 may lead to a request for the recall of a witness,
8 Francois Tendil. I rather hope that will not be the
9 case.
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: So do I.
11 MR KEEN: It may well be because of the way in which matters
12 have apparently developed that will be a motion that is
13 made.
14 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
15 MR KEEN: The second matter I mention, sir, is this: you had
16 indicated that there had been further communication with
17 the French on the question of the letters of request,
18 and as those do impact in part upon evidence that is due
19 to be heard on Monday, I think it would be of assistance
20 to the interested persons if they could be advised as to
21 what the current position is, in the context of having
22 to examine, for example, Dr Dumestre Toulet.
23 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes, you would like the answer as
24 much as I would like the answer, and the most up-to-date
25 information that I can give you was that there was
109
1 a conversation due to take place at 1.30 this afternoon
2 with the person in France who might be able to assist us
3 with the material information. Whether we shall get
4 an answer, because the last we heard was that we should
5 get it in March, which is no good, I don't know.
6 MR KEEN: I simply raise the point, sir.
7 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We are well aware of it.
8 MR KEEN: Because the relevant witnesses are due on Monday.
9 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Absolutely. Mr Horwell?
10 MR HORWELL: No, thank you, sir.
11 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Members of the jury, I think
12 that's all we require you for at the moment. I think
13 I would just like to tidy up the matter that was raised
14 before we sat with you this morning.
15 (2.30 pm)
16 (Jury out)
17 MR HORWELL: Sir, one of the reasons for asking Mr Hodges to
18 attend this afternoon was that I could discuss this
19 matter with him.
20 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: You have not had a chance to yet?
21 MR HORWELL: I have not had a chance to. We will provide
22 a response, if not today, then tomorrow.
23 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes. The only additional point
24 that I would add to this is that I think there is a list
25 of the relevant documents that those on my behalf have
110
1 been working their way through, but it would not on the
2 face of it seem to me to be appropriate that that list
3 should now be made available publicly, because that
4 would really be questioning the audit that's taken place
5 on my behalf --
6 MR HORWELL: Exactly.
7 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: -- and that would not be
8 appropriate.
9 MR HORWELL: The evidence indicates that the audit has
10 worked, which is the point you made this morning.
11 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I do not have a concluded view
12 about that, that's just a provisional view that might
13 assist.
14 I don't suppose you want to say any more at this
15 stage, Mr Mansfield, or maybe you do?
16 MR MANSFIELD: I do not want to seem or be impertinent about
17 it, but if there is a list, I am not asking that it's
18 made public, I would ask that we be given sight of the
19 list in order to just -- it will not take long to do it,
20 just to do a triple check that there isn't any heading
21 which we may immediately see could be relevant which may
22 have been missed, that's all.
23 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: You can work on Mr Horwell and
24 Mr Burnett in the meantime.
25 MR MANSFIELD: I will.
111
1 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: And as always my mind remains
2 open, if only a chink.
3 MR MANSFIELD: Yes.
4 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: 9.30 on Monday.
5 (2.32 pm)
6 (The hearing adjourned until 9.30 am on
7 Monday, 17th March 2008)
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
112
1 INDEX
2 PAGE
3 INSPECTOR PAUL CARPENTER (continued) ............. 13
4
5 Evidence relating to MR FABRICE .................. 13
6 CHASSERY
7
8 Questions from MR HILLIARD ................ 13
9
10 Questions from MR CROXFORD ................ 36
11
12 Questions from MR HORWELL ................. 45
13
14 Evidence relating to MR JEAN-LUC ................. 48
15 PAUL MORERE
16
17 Read by MR HOUGH .......................... 48
18
19 Evidence relating MS SANDRA CUDELOU .............. 54
20
21 Evidence relating to MRS DELLA ................... 56
22 DAVIES
23
24 Evidence relating to MS MYRIAM ................... 58
25 LEMAIRE
113
1
2 MR THOMAS FOLEY (recalled) ....................... 60
3
4 Questions from MR BURNETT ................. 60
5
6 Evidence relating to MRS NICOLA .................. 60
7 GABRIEL nee CHOPP
8
9 Evidence relating to MR STEPHEN .................. 64
10 ROBERT PEET
11
12 Evidence relating to DR DAVID .................... 65
13 WHITEFORD
14
15 MR MARTIN LLOYD SMITH (affirmed) ................. 67
16
17 Questions from MR BURNETT ................. 67
18
19 Evidence relating to MS BARBARA .................. 68
20 BROCCOLI
21
22 Evidence relating to MR MARK HODGES .............. 75
23
24 MME JOSIANE LE TELLIER (affirmed) ................ 86
25
114
1 Questions from MR HOUGH ................... 86
2
3 Questions from MR KEEN .................... 92
4
5 MR MARK HODGES (sworn) ........................... 95
6
7 Questions from MR BURNETT ................. 95
8
9 Questions from MR MANSFIELD ............... 102
10
11 Questions from MR HORWELL ................. 104
12
13 Housekeeping ..................................... 106
14
115
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