12 February 2008 - Afternoon session
7 (2.00 pm)
8 (Jury present)
9 MR MANSFIELD: Yes, could we have please, as was just before
10 lunch on screen, [INQ0034884]? Thank you very much.
11 What I would like to please, Lord Fellowes, is just
12 read this and then I have some questions to ask. It is
13 a fairly short article. It is the last one I am going
14 to ask you to look at.
15 It is dated, as I said before lunch, August 31st,
16 the Sunday, under a headline:
17 "Queen 'to strip Harrods of its Royal Crest'; The
18 Royal Family may withdraw their seal of approval from
19 Harrods."
20 The author is there:
21 "The Royal Family may withdraw their seal of
22 approval from Harrods ... as a result of Diana's affair
23 with owner's son, Dodi Fayed. The top people's store,
24 with its long and proud tradition of Royal patronage may
25 be about to lose the Prince of Wales Royal crest.
107
1 Senior Palace courtiers are ready to advise
2 the Queen that she should refuse to renew
3 the prestigious Royal warrants for the Knightsbridge
4 store when they come up for review in February.
5 "It would be a huge blow to the ego of store owner
6 Mohamed Al Fayed and would infuriate Diana, who was
7 yesterday understood to be still with Dodi, aboard his
8 yacht, near the Italian island of Sardinia. But the
9 Royal Family are furious about the frolics of Di, 36,
10 and Dodi, 41, which they believe have further undermined
11 the Monarchy.
12 "Prince Philip, in particular, has had made no
13 secret as to how he feels about his daughter-in-law's
14 latest man, referring to Dodi as an 'oily bedhopper'.
15 "At Balmoral next week, the Queen will preside over
16 a meeting of the Way Ahead Group, where the Windsors sit
17 down with their senior advisers to discuss policy
18 matters.
19 "MI6 has prepared a special report on the
20 Egyptian-born Fayeds, which will be presented to
21 meeting.
22 "The delicate subject of Harrods and its Royal
23 warrants is also expected to be discussed and the Fayeds
24 can expect little sympathy from Philip.
25 "A friend of the Royals said yesterday 'Prince
108
1 Philip has let rip several times recently about the
2 Fayeds -- at a dinner party during a country shoot and
3 while on a visit to close friends in Germany. He has
4 been banging on about his contempt for Dodi and how he
5 is undesirable as a future stepfather to William and
6 Harry.
7 "Diana has been told in no uncertain terms about
8 the consequences should she continue the relationship
9 with the Fayed boy.
10 "Options must include possible exile, although that
11 would be very difficult as, all said and done, she is
12 the mother of the future King of England.
13 "She has also been warned about social ostracism.
14 But Diana's attitude is if that means not having to deal
15 with the royals and their kind, then she would be
16 delighted.
17 "There are some who believe Diana may be past caring
18 and has decided to look towards those who can afford to
19 keep her in the lifestyle to which she has become
20 accustomed.
21 "The Fayed family have all the trappings of vast
22 wealth ... wherever it originated from.
23 "Dodi has told Diana what he has told many of his
24 other beautiful girlfriends in the past: 'It is my
25 father's store and you can have what you want. Charge
109
1 it to my account and I will just sign the bill.
2 "But now the Royal Family may decide it is time to
3 settle up."
4 Firstly, Lord Fellowes, did you ever see that
5 article?
6 A. Not to my memory.
7 Q. Secondly, is it right, as it is mentioned in the third
8 paragraph, that the Royal warrants were up for review in
9 February?
10 A. I do not know when they came up for review, I am afraid.
11 Q. So you cannot help on that?
12 A. No. All I know is that the Royal Warrant-Holders
13 Committee met annually and so on.
14 Q. Very well. The next paragraph, about the Royal
15 Family -- they are not specified there, but "The Royal
16 Family are furious about the frolics of Di and Dodi".
17 I want to ask you about this: during the summer, do you
18 recall that in fact, as they are described, their
19 frolics were in fact on the front pages of most
20 newspapers, certainly on the second occasion, that is
21 the second week on the Jonikal, nearly every day?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you also agree that this was to the consternation, at
24 the very least, of members of the Royal Family?
25 A. I do not remember that. I do not remember a view being
110
1 expressed from any member of the Royal Family for or
2 against the Princess's holiday with Mr Al Fayed.
3 Q. Well, we are now into the holiday. She has been to
4 St Tropez, she has been to Paris, she has been on the
5 Jonikal on one earlier occasion in August. This is
6 the second one, where the majority of the publicity and
7 also speculation, I make it very clear, in the press
8 about this relationship, where it is going and so on --
9 that was the nature of it, every day.
10 A. I still don't remember any member of the Royal Family
11 speaking to me about it.
12 Q. Were you on holiday at the time?
13 A. I was on holiday from early -- well somewhere around
14 the first week of August.
15 Q. Until?
16 A. The week after the death of the Princess and
17 Mr Al Fayed, and I went back to Balmoral on the
18 following Sunday, I think, after the funeral.
19 Q. So would it be fair to say that you were not, in fact,
20 therefore, at the Palace or nearby when all of this was
21 happening?
22 A. I was at the Palace certainly until the end of July.
23 Q. What I have suggested is that most of what had happened
24 had happened in fact in August. Do you follow?
25 A. Yes, correct.
111
1 Q. I want to ask you about one or two other matters that
2 are mentioned here:
3 "Prince Philip in particular has made no secret ..."
4 This is a description that has been quoted here, but
5 it has been quoted elsewhere. Had you ever heard that
6 description appended to Dodi by Prince Philip?
7 A. No, absolutely not.
8 Q. Then:
9 "MI6 has prepared a special report on the
10 Egyptian-born Fayeds ..."
11 Were you aware of any interest that the security
12 services had in the Al Fayeds?
13 A. No.
14 Q. So, for example, MI5?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Nothing?
17 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Was there going to be a meeting
18 of the Way Ahead Group at Balmoral?
19 A. There -- no, the Way Ahead Group met in July, but not --
20 there was no further meeting at Balmoral planned.
21 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: The suggestion here is that one
22 was planned for early September.
23 A. No.
24 MR MANSFIELD: As sometimes happens, do the meetings of
25 a previous meeting indicate when the next -- sorry, you
112
1 are just looking --
2 A. I am just making sure, sir, that I am right in saying
3 that.
4 No, I can see no reference in my pocket diary anyway
5 to a Way Ahead Group meeting in September.
6 MR MANSFIELD: You see it may be that there was one
7 scheduled, but it was canceled because of the crash.
8 A. It would be very unlikely because, as I say, we met
9 twice a year, usually in the first two months, and then
10 in the late summer. That was a regular routine. So
11 it was very unlikely that a third was planned for
12 September, after one in July.
13 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield, I reviewed
14 the minutes and agenda for the July meeting to see
15 whether there was anything relevant in them. Had there
16 been a reference to the next meeting, I would have
17 regarded that as relevant.
18 MR MANSFIELD: That was going to be the next question.
19 Sometimes a date is put for the next.
20 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Indeed, I have the minutes and
21 agenda here, but I directed that they should not be
22 disclosed because they contain nothing of relevance.
23 MR BURNETT: Sir, might I just assist on this?
24 Obviously the relevance that you had in mind was
25 whether there was a meeting identified in the July
113
1 minutes to occur in September.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
3 MR BURNETT: Sir, as you will recollect and no doubt you
4 have reminded yourself, there is no such reference,
5 but --
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Relevance also now includes what
7 they don't contain.
8 MR BURNETT: Yes, but sir, as to the question of whether
9 the minutes of 23rd July indicate, as so often is
10 the case with minutes, when the next meeting is
11 scheduled, that is something which -- I do not know if
12 you have a copy of them available to you.
13 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes, I have, and I have just said
14 that they don't contain that and I had looked at that
15 originally.
16 MR BURNETT: Sir, can I just hand something to you to see
17 whether we are looking at --
18 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Wait a minute.
19 MR BURNETT: I think there may be another page there.
20 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Ah. Well you show me what you
21 have.
22 MR BURNETT: I am looking at the last entry on page 5, which
23 says "Next meeting".
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Ah, well, thank you.
25 Well, I was not provided with page 5 in
114
1 the accompanying letter from the Treasury Solicitor or
2 it may be that this is an error in copying at our end.
3 MR BURNETT: Sir, given that I have it with page 5, it must
4 have arrived with page 5 but perhaps it has not been
5 copied onto yours. Sir, I wonder, to avoid any
6 confusion, whether Lord Fellowes might just look at
7 the agenda and the minutes and then he no doubt can
8 remind himself of when the next --
9 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes, thank you. I am sorry,
10 Mr Mansfield, I gave you misleading information because
11 I had not seen the very last page.
12 A. Shall I read it out?
13 "The next meeting has been arranged for Monday
14 19th January 1998, Sandringham House."
15 MR MANSFIELD: Now, the article goes on to deal with various
16 observations which may or may not be, though in quotes
17 obviously, from legitimate sources or not. But they
18 mainly concern the observations, apparently, of the Duke
19 of Edinburgh.
20 Now I just want to ask you about that. I appreciate
21 you were not, as it were, his secretary, but from time
22 to time you would meet him and you would be on the same
23 premises on a regular basis?
24 A. Reasonably regular.
25 Q. Are you saying that at no stage over the years -- and
115
1 I will be specific, in particular, from 1992 onwards --
2 there were no adverse observations, leaving aside Dodi,
3 who obviously was not present in those years, about
4 Diana and her antics and what was she was getting up to?
5 A. In the first place, I would say that the Duke of
6 Edinburgh, like the Queen, had a genuine affection for
7 Diana. I never heard either of them speak in
8 a derogatory way about them -- about her, I should say.
9 It would be idle to pretend that in everything that
10 happened they gave her full support because some of the
11 things that happened were clearly not either in her
12 interests or theirs. Nonetheless, I do not think that
13 the Queen or the Duke of Edinburgh ever lost their
14 affection for Diana and, as I say, I never heard either
15 of them say anything derogatory about her personally.
16 Q. I just want to reflect on three things in this period.
17 At the beginning of the period in 1992 in June -- I have
18 mentioned it already -- on 14th June 1992,
19 The Sunday Times published their second instalment of
20 Andrew Morton's book. Do you remember that?
21 A. I remember the Morton book, certainly.
22 Q. You remember a little bit more than that, I suggest,
23 because there was a real problem; not just the contents
24 of the book and what it displayed, but that was, at that
25 time, intimate and shocking revelations by a member of
116
1 the Royal Family, wasn't it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Secondly, there was another problem attached to this
4 book, wasn't there?
5 A. You tell me.
6 Q. Well, inquiries were made as to how it came to be
7 published and whether Diana herself had played any part.
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. That was a major issue, wasn't it?
10 A. It was.
11 Q. Had you forgotten that?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Right. Why was it a major problem?
14 A. Well, the question was whether or not the Princess had
15 taken an active part in the publication of the book.
16 When I taxed her on the subject, she assured me more
17 than once that she had never met Mr Morton and
18 the implication I took to be that she had nothing to do
19 with the book. It subsequently became clear that she
20 had done and it was acknowledged far and wide that she
21 had done, and certainly I was one of those who realised
22 that my earlier impression had been the wrong one.
23 Q. It goes a little further than that. I want to ask you
24 if you were present. She was summoned to Windsor Castle
25 to meet both Her Majesty and the Duke of Edinburgh,
117
1 wasn't she?
2 A. I have no knowledge of that meeting.
3 Q. You know about it?
4 A. It does not mean to say it did not happen. I have no
5 idea whether it took place. The Princess was in the
6 reasonably regular habit of ringing up the Queen and
7 going to see her anyway, and if the Queen and
8 Prince Philip had a meeting with the Princess, I would
9 not have been present, and I certainly was not, and I do
10 not know what would have transpired at that meeting.
11 Q. Well, I want to ask you about one thing that apparently
12 transpired at that meeting, that the Duke of Edinburgh
13 was extraordinarily angry about what had happened in
14 terms of not just the book being published, but the fact
15 that Diana was denying she had had anything to do with
16 it. Did you know any of that or not?
17 A. No.
18 Q. He alleged that he knew she had had something to do with
19 it because he alleged that there were tape-recordings of
20 her conversations with The Sunday Times. Did you know
21 that that is what he was saying?
22 A. No.
23 Q. And that a second meeting did not occur -- there was due
24 to be a second one, she did not go to that, and that you
25 advised the Duke that he should drop that topic.
118
1 A. No knowledge of that episode at all.
2 Q. Did you participate at all in giving advice?
3 A. No.
4 Q. You don't know anything about it?
5 A. No.
6 Q. So you don't know anything about how the Duke, you
7 therefore say, reacted to the book or her denials or
8 anything?
9 A. No, I do not.
10 Q. We move on in 1992 to the tapes that were in the public
11 domain by then. Do you say that that was, as it were,
12 accommodated by the Duke of Edinburgh with equanimity?
13 A. I said earlier that it would be idle to pretend that
14 the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh were full of support
15 for some of the things that happened. That said, these
16 things do happen, they happened, and my job as
17 Private Secretary was I think to work out how best to
18 react to them. How the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh
19 personally felt about them, I never inquired and they
20 never gave me any personal indication as to whether they
21 were personally hurt or disapproving, but clearly it
22 would be silly to pretend that they thought it was good
23 news.
24 Q. If I may say so, that is, particularly when we get to
25 the final one, a little of an understatement.
119
1 The Bashir interview, which you remember -- did you
2 watch it?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. We have heard a lot about it so I am not going through
5 it with you, but do you agree that that was an
6 extraordinarily frank exposure by Princess Diana of her
7 feelings towards all sorts of people and obviously about
8 herself as well?
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. It was not long after that, you will recall, that
11 Her Majesty, as it were, and others brought down
12 the curtain in the sense of saying, "Right, there has to
13 be a divorce" --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- in December.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I leave Her Majesty out of it. Feelings were running
18 quite high about Diana and what she had really been
19 doing. I am going to put it in a synoptic way: was it
20 not the feeling that really "enough was enough" as far
21 as Diana was concerned?
22 A. I think there was a feeling that "enough was enough" in
23 terms of her being a, so to speak, fully paid-up member
24 of the Royal Family. In terms of personal animosity or
25 whatever, absolutely not "enough was enough". I think
120
1 they were very sad that the Prince of Wales and
2 the Princess could not live happily together. They were
3 very sad that both of them had clearly been extremely
4 unhappy and they believed, I think, that some course
5 must be found to give both of them a better life.
6 Q. Again I am going to put it in summary form. After that,
7 is it not right that Diana was really frozen out of most
8 Royal events? She was not welcomed anymore and was
9 increasingly isolated in Kensington Palace?
10 A. I think any freezing out was as much from the Princess's
11 side as the Royal Family. I do not think it would have
12 been her choice to appear at Royal events and so on, but
13 I am now surmising, and there was no wish to freeze her
14 out, as I say, personally. Indeed, the Queen, I think,
15 until the end of the Princess's life, from time to time
16 met her and had friendly conversations with her, as in
17 fact did I.
18 Q. Yes, I have been very careful not to include Her Majesty
19 in these observations that I am putting to you.
20 I do not know whether you can help but witnesses
21 have been asked. Letters from the Duke of Edinburgh,
22 have you any knowledge of those?
23 A. I have seen one of them in full because I think the Duke
24 of Edinburgh showed me a copy of what he had written to
25 the Princess. I have read about the proceedings here
121
1 and beyond that, I really have no knowledge.
2 Q. Can I make clear what the question really is? It is:
3 are you able to assist as to letters that may have been
4 written by the Duke before 1992 and letters that may
5 have been written by the Duke to Princess Diana after
6 1992?
7 A. I have no knowledge of any letters beyond those which
8 have been in the court's ...
9 Q. So you don't know one way or the other whether he did or
10 he did not?
11 A. I do not know, no.
12 Q. Final topic: could we have please [INQ0006335]?
13 This has been characterised as the "Mishcon note".
14 It is a note that Lord Mishcon made of a meeting with
15 Princess Diana on 31st October 1995. First of all, have
16 you ever seen that note before today?
17 A. I have never seen the note, but I think I have probably
18 read in the papers quite a lot of what is said.
19 Q. I appreciate that.
20 I am asking you in your capacity primarily as
21 Lady Jane's husband whether she has ever seen this note.
22 There is a reason for asking you this. It is suggested
23 that she had seen this. Are you able to help?
24 A. No, I am not.
25 Q. So, therefore --
122
1 A. Without asking her, I cannot say categorically that she
2 did not, but I have no knowledge of her having seen it.
3 So the answer is: I do not know.
4 Q. As far as you are concerned, you had not seen it really
5 before it was made public for the purposes of these
6 proceedings?
7 A. No.
8 MR MANSFIELD: Thank you very much.
9 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Weekes?
10 MR WEEKES: No, thank you, sir.
11 MR CROXFORD: No, thank you, sir.
12 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Horwell?
13 Questions from MR HORWELL
14 MR HORWELL: Lord Fellowes, my name is Richard Horwell.
15 I appear on behalf of the Commissioner of Metropolitan
16 Police.
17 There are only two topics that I wish to ask you
18 about. The first concerns the discussions that took
19 place in 1993 about the recording of various telephone
20 conversations. These topics have these features that
21 run throughout them: first of all, this was very
22 embarrassing for all concerned.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. We need not go through the details, but very
25 embarrassing for those whose telephone calls were
123
1 recorded.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The victims who had their calls recorded were not asking
4 for a police or a security services investigation --
5 A. Can I be clear which recordings we are talking about?
6 Q. Both, the Diana and James Gilbey and, as is referred to,
7 the Camillagate conversations. Embarrassing for all
8 concerned. Those who had their calls recorded were not
9 asking for an investigation. There was a discussion as
10 to whether there should be an investigation.
11 The security services had confirmed that they had not
12 recorded the calls. Was the belief at the time that
13 the calls had been recorded by a radio ham or
14 journalists?
15 A. Well, there were all sorts of guesses in the newspapers,
16 most of which did not contain the suggestion that
17 the press had done it.
18 Q. No, that is perhaps not unusual. But a radio ham, was
19 that --
20 A. Yes, there was certainly a suggestion.
21 Q. The belief, as appears throughout the documents
22 disclosed this morning, was that the perpetrators would
23 not be found. There was an opinion expressed that for
24 that reason there would be little point in an
25 investigation to find the perpetrators, and as you have
124
1 said on a number of occasions this morning, perhaps
2 uppermost in your mind was looking forward and how you
3 could prevent this from happening again.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now the process that we examined through those
6 documents, in your opinion, Lord Fellowes, anything
7 suspicious or odd about the discussions that took place
8 in 1993 as to the best way forward?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Mr Davies: he has given a number of accounts as to
11 precisely what he says he said to you in the course of
12 this telephone conversation. One of the accounts that
13 he gave before this jury on 31st January was that you
14 were in Balmoral, that he phoned you at about 7.30/7.45
15 is the time that he has given, and this is what he says
16 he said to you:
17 "I told him that the Commissioner had directed me to
18 inform him that Her Royal Highness or Princess was going
19 on holiday with the two Princes and that in our
20 conclusion the matter gave us cause for concern and that
21 was he aware."
22 He went on to add this:
23 "I repeated: it is the Commissioner's opinion that
24 the visit or the holiday should not go ahead in our
25 humble opinion."
125
1 If a police officer had had such a telephone
2 conversation with you in July of 1997, it would have
3 been a remarkable departure from normal police practice,
4 do you not agree?
5 A. I would have thought so, yes, not that I am an expert on
6 police practice.
7 Q. In terms of the relationship between the police and
8 the Palace, it would have been a remarkable departure?
9 A. It would have been, yes.
10 Q. Is it for that reason that you believe that such
11 a telephone conversation did not take place?
12 A. Well, the first reason is that I have no recollection of
13 it, but the second reason, as I think I have said
14 earlier, is that I would find it very surprising, if
15 this sort of advice was to be imparted, if it was not
16 imparted either by the head of royalty protection or by
17 the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police.
18 Q. Lord Condon's evidence was to this effect: first of all,
19 it was not the business of the Metropolitan Police to
20 advise the Palace as to the Princess of Wales' holiday
21 companions. Do you agree with that?
22 A. Certainly.
23 Q. He added, as you have just said, that if such
24 a communication was thought appropriate between
25 the Metropolitan Police and the Palace, that he and he
126
1 alone would have made the communication.
2 A. I would have thought that most likely.
3 Q. And that you obviously agree with.
4 If Mr Davies had telephoned you to express
5 a personal opinion, you would have disregarded both it
6 and him?
7 A. I would have regarded a call coming out of the blue like
8 that with considerable suspicion.
9 MR HORWELL: Lord Fellowes, thank you.
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Lord Fellowes, there was
11 a particular difficulty for Diana, wasn't there, in that
12 having, in your words, "ceased to be a fully paid-up
13 member of the Royal Family", it was very difficult for
14 her to create a new life, for she could not set aside,
15 however much she may have wanted to, all
16 the restrictions of being a member of the Royal Family.
17 A. Yes, sir, that is correct, and furthermore she was
18 the mother of Prince William and Prince Harry.
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: And she found it very difficult
20 to cope with that situation in the context of the
21 divorce, did she not?
22 A. Yes, I think she did.
23 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Burnett?
24 Further questions from MR BURNETT
25 MR BURNETT: A couple of short matters. Returning very
127
1 briefly to the phone call or not. You were in
2 Holyrood Palace in Edinburgh. Listening to the evidence
3 as it has been unfolding, a question has been going
4 through my mind. How would somebody simply get directly
5 through to the Queen's Private Secretary in
6 Holyrood Palace? How did it work in those days?
7 A. He would come through the switchboard -- there was an
8 outside number, I think, for Holyrood -- or he might
9 ring up Buckingham Palace and say "Can you put me
10 through to Lord Fellowes at Holyrood?", but
11 the telephone operators were very well versed in
12 recognising voices, remembering when they should ask
13 the potential recipient of a call whether he or she
14 wanted to take it and so on. It would be very unlikely
15 that they would just put him straight through.
16 Q. Did you, in those days, have a direct line, the number
17 of which would be known to --
18 A. Not in Holyrood, no.
19 Q. So it would have to come via the switchboard?
20 A. It would have to come through the switchboard, yes.
21 Q. You mentioned that one of your colleagues, either
22 the Assistant Private Secretary or the Deputy Private
23 Secretary is likely to have been at Holyrood at the same
24 time; something you can check for us and let us know.
25 A call at 7.30 or 7.45 in the morning; no doubt an
128
1 enthusiast for your work, Lord Fellowes, but unlikely to
2 be in the office at 7.30 in the morning in Holyrood or
3 perhaps I am wrong?
4 A. I am very hurt that you should think so, but that is
5 correct, yes.
6 Q. So would you have to be located?
7 A. No, I would be probably having my early morning tea or
8 something like that in bed.
9 Q. So the call would need to come through, where, to your
10 room or --
11 A. To the bedroom.
12 Q. So that too would be rather unusual?
13 A. It would be unusual. There might have been cause for me
14 to be -- joking apart -- at the desk, but I think it
15 most likely it would have come through to my bedroom.
16 Q. Just returning, if I may, for a small number of
17 supplementary questions on the little bundle of
18 documents concerning bugging of Prince Charles and
19 Princess Diana, if you would pick those up again,
20 Lord Fellowes.
21 Now, is it right to take from your evidence that
22 the bugged telephone call involving the
23 Princess of Wales and the bugged telephone call
24 involving the Prince of Wales were treated identically
25 as far as the Household was concerned and also as far as
129
1 the political and official involvement was concerned?
2 A. I would say they were viewed with equal concern.
3 Q. And each was treated in exactly the same way?
4 A. Yes, yes, I think they were.
5 Q. Now, it was suggested to you that the note for
6 the record, which starts at page 2, at which there were
7 officials present, including the head of GCHQ,
8 the Director General of MI5, Hayden Phillips, who
9 we understand -- and I think it is not controversial --
10 was the Permanent Secretary at the Department for
11 National Heritage as it was called in those days -- and
12 I think you have explained that his involvement would
13 have been because of responsibility for Royal buildings
14 and Palaces -- and then the blanked out SIS name --
15 we have been informed that that is not the name of the
16 chief of the SIS because, if it were, his name would be
17 present. So those were the people present.
18 It was suggested to you that nowhere in the minute
19 do any of the three representatives of the agencies
20 appear to deny their own involvement. Now is it right
21 that the whole context of the discussion that is
22 recorded there was the categorical ministerial
23 assurances that had been given the previous week, that
24 there was no such official involvement?
25 A. I think it was -- I mean, I was not there, but I imagine
130
1 it was conducted on the premise that the assurances that
2 they had no doubt given to ministers could be relied
3 upon.
4 Q. Where you aware then or more recently that in
5 Parliament, the Secretary of State for National Heritage
6 indeed referred to the assurances from the heads of the
7 agencies? It is not in this bundle.
8 A. No, I am --
9 Q. You were not aware of that?
10 A. No.
11 Q. That may be something that we need to look at with
12 others.
13 Last in this bundle, could we go again to the letter
14 at page 12, which is the letter from Sir John Adye dated
15 23rd March 1993, to you.
16 Now, can I just invite you to look at the second
17 page of the letter? It is a passage I recollect I may
18 have asked you about, but I do not think my learned
19 friend, Mr Mansfield, did. Do we see in the paragraph
20 at the top of page 2, starting four lines down, "It is
21 at least clear that neither method of interception ..."
22 That, if we remember, is listening to the mobile
23 call or in some way bugging or tapping into
24 the landline.
25 "... neither method of interception would need
131
1 inside knowledge or physical access to the inside of
2 buildings."
3 Presumably if the advice from GCHQ had been that
4 these calls might have been bugged by someone who had
5 physical access to at least Sandringham House on the one
6 hand, that would have been a matter of extremely grave
7 concern?
8 A. It would.
9 Q. Lastly, so far as the Mishcon note is concerned, you
10 were asked whether your wife had any knowledge of it and
11 you indicated that you did not know.
12 Did you follow the evidence or read the evidence
13 that was given by Lady Sarah McCorquodale a couple of
14 weeks ago?
15 A. I certainly read a sort of synopsis in the press. I was
16 not present.
17 Q. Do you remember that she said she did not know about
18 the letter?
19 A. I know, yes, I do.
20 Q. Also my recollection is -- I have not had a chance to
21 look it up -- she indicated that she had spoken to her
22 siblings and they too did not know.
23 A. Did she? I did not know.
24 MR BURNETT: I hope my memory on that is correct.
25 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: It is.
132
1 MR BURNETT: Lord Fellowes, thank you very much indeed.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you very much,
3 Lord Fellowes. I am sorry you have been kept rather
4 longer than was originally anticipated. We are very
5 grateful to you for coming and giving evidence.
6 A. Thank you.
7 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Brigadier Ritchie.
8 BRIGADIER CHARLES DAVID McIVER RITCHIE (sworn)
9 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Please be seated, if you would
10 prefer to give your evidence seated.
11 A. Thanks.
12 Questions from MR BURNETT
13 MR BURNETT: As you know, I shall asking questions first on
14 behalf of the Coroner and then there may be some
15 questions from others representing other interested
16 persons.
17 Is your full name Charles David McIver Ritchie?
18 A. It is.
19 Q. Are you a retired brigadier of the British Army?
20 A. I am.
21 Q. Now, Brigadier Ritchie, it is right, is it not, that you
22 were military attache at the Paris Embassy at the time
23 of the crash at the end of August 1997 in which
24 Dodi Al Fayed and the Princess of Wales lost their
25 lives?
133
1 A. I was.
2 Q. Now, before asking you a few questions to elicit your
3 movements on that evening, can I simply ask one or two
4 questions of a more general nature?
5 I think it is right, isn't it, that you were
6 approached via a close neighbour in Edinburgh by
7 a journalist called Richard Bellfield, with a view to
8 your assisting with or taking part in a television
9 programme focusing on various conspiracies surrounding
10 the death of the Princess and Mr Al Fayed?
11 A. I was.
12 Q. But you declined to take any part in it?
13 A. I did.
14 Q. So am I right in thinking that you have not appeared in
15 any TV programmes or given interviews about the events
16 of the night in question?
17 A. I never have.
18 Q. And never will?
19 A. And never will.
20 Q. Prior to being posted to Paris, you had a long and
21 distinguished military career. I do not need to trouble
22 you with all of that, if you will forgive me, but can
23 I simply pick up one or two of the appointments that you
24 had before going to Paris?
25 Now, is it right that you were, between 1991 and
134
1 1993, the United Kingdom military representative at
2 SHAPE in Belgium?
3 A. I was.
4 Q. What does "SHAPE" stand for?
5 A. Officially "SHAPE" stands for "Supreme Headquarters
6 Allied Powers Europe".
7 Q. And unofficially?
8 A. "Subsidised Holidays At Public Expense".
9 Q. So you were on holiday between 1993 and 1994.
10 Then, thereafter, I think it is right that you were
11 chief of staff to the United Nations Protection Force in
12 the former republic of Yugoslavia?
13 A. I was, for six months.
14 Q. And it was from there that you went on to take up
15 the post as military attache at the British Embassy in
16 Paris?
17 A. I had a six-month break between those postings where
18 I was at Edinburgh University, hotting up my French.
19 Q. And you retired from the British Army when?
20 A. At the end of December 1997.
21 Q. And you are currently the secretary of the New Club in
22 Edinburgh?
23 A. I am.
24 Q. And you live in Edinburgh?
25 A. I do not. I live outside Edinburgh.
135
1 Q. In addition to those jobs that you have identified, is
2 it right that between 1994 and 1997, you were
3 an aide de camp to Her Majesty the Queen?
4 A. I was.
5 Q. In a sentence or two, can you explain to us what that is
6 and what it means, in terms of duties?
7 A. An "aide de camp" is an honorary appointment which
8 I took up when I went to Paris. You appear in the army
9 list as an aide de camp to the Queen. You wear on your
10 shoulder an "EIIR" to show that you are an aide de camp
11 to the Queen, and normally you are asked to attend
12 certain functions and to assist. But during my entire
13 period as ADC to the Queen, I only attended one function
14 and that was at the Buckingham Palace reception for
15 the Diplomatic Corps. It was my job to introduce all
16 members of the Royal Family attending to the members of
17 the Diplomatic Corps that I was responsible for
18 introducing.
19 Q. Is it in that connection that you, at least on one
20 occasion, met the Princess of Wales?
21 A. Yes, indeed I met her on that occasion officially and on
22 one other occasion privately.
23 Q. Is it right also that your wife is or has been
24 a lady-in-waiting to the Princess Royal?
25 A. She is currently a lady-in-waiting to the Princess
136
1 Royal.
2 Q. Returning if I might to Paris, again in a sentence or
3 two, what is the function of a military attache?
4 A. The function of the military attache is basically to
5 represent the British Army and all aspects with
6 the French Army. It was my responsibility to look after
7 the liaison officers we had at the British schools, look
8 after all the students that we had at various military
9 establishments, look after approximately 30 military
10 exercises the British Army held, approximately
11 150 battlefield tours held and some 300 adventure
12 training exercises, hosting all inward visits from VIPs,
13 escorting senior French officers to the United Kingdom,
14 attending seminars, answering ridiculous questions from
15 the French public about the British Army and helping
16 the French military to move from a conscript army to
17 a professional army.
18 Q. In addition to you as the military attache, there was,
19 I think, a defence attache, which was a tri-service
20 posting, and then each of the other forces, the
21 Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy had their own
22 attaches as well.
23 A. The defence attache was Royal Air Force, he was a
24 commodore. His job is to deal with Ministry of Defence
25 to Ministry of Defence matters; naval attache, naval
137
1 matters; and the assistant air attache was purely on the
2 Royal Air Force side.
3 Q. Now, it is right, isn't it, Brigadier, that you made
4 a statement on 23rd February 2005 to Metropolitan Police
5 officers?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. And you have a copy in front of you?
8 A. I have it here.
9 Q. I shall ask you a few questions by reference to various
10 parts of the statement and I will indicate where I am
11 because I hope it will assist you. I am looking at
12 page 3 at the moment.
13 There you tell us that you were the senior attache
14 available in Paris on the weekend of 30th and
15 31st August 1997. That being the case, were you on
16 standby or on call or how did it work?
17 A. I was the only attache officially at the Embassy at that
18 time. The sort of things that might have happened were
19 a death on adventures training or, as the French kept
20 doing when they were building extensions to motorways,
21 they would find bodies of our soldiers from the
22 1st World War and I would have responsibility for
23 getting that organised, but I was the only attache on
24 duty that weekend.
25 Q. Are you able to explain to the jury what you were doing
138
1 on the morning of Saturday 30th August 1997?
2 A. Yes, sir. On the morning of Saturday 30th August, I was
3 required to attend a commemorative event, which I used
4 to attend many of them. This particular one was at
5 Versailles, and it was the Deuxieme Division Blindee,
6 the Second Armoured Division, and they had
7 a commemorative service followed by a reception which
8 I attended in Versailles.
9 Q. Did you, that weekend, have visiting family members,
10 a nephew, we need not give his name and a friend of his
11 whose name also is immaterial to us, but who were
12 visiting you that weekend?
13 A. Yes, they were staying with us that Saturday night.
14 Q. Your flat, I think, was in the Rue de Rivoli; is that
15 right?
16 A. That was where the entrance to the flat was, yes.
17 Q. It was not very far from the junction of the
18 Rue de Rivoli and Rue Cambon. These are two roads that
19 the jury are extremely familiar with and have visited.
20 That is geographically where it was?
21 A. Yes, it was virtually on the junction of Rue Cambon and
22 Rue de Rivoli.
23 Q. Am I right in thinking from that end of Rue Cambon and
24 certainly from your flat, you had no view to the other
25 end of Rue Cambon and the back entrance of the Ritz?
139
1 A. From the back of my flat, you could not see the back
2 door of the Ritz, but if you were to lean over and risk
3 life and limb, you probably would have been able to see
4 a car parked outside it.
5 Q. On the evening of Sunday 30th August, did you go out and
6 about in Paris with your guests and your wife?
7 A. Yes, we did. We took them down the Rue de Rivoli to
8 a restaurant called the Bistro Romain in Les Halles
9 where we had supper.
10 Q. And that is a fair way to the east away from the
11 Rue de Rivoli?
12 A. That is quite a long way down the Rue de Rivoli, heading
13 due east.
14 Q. Are you able to remember roughly at what time you
15 finished there?
16 A. We finished there at approximately, if I remind myself,
17 about 11 o'clock at night.
18 Q. Page 4 may assist you.
19 A. Yes, we left the restaurant at about 11 o'clock and then
20 set out a circuitous route home to show my nephew and
21 his friend some of the more exciting parts of Paris,
22 particularly in the Rue St-Denis area.
23 Q. And in the course of your perambulations, did you find
24 yourself a little bit later in the Place Vendome?
25 A. Yes, we did. We went into a road which is a major road
140
1 shown on the street map of Paris which is called the
2 Rue Etienne Marcel. We turned left and then went
3 straight up that road before turning left into
4 the Place Vendome.
5 Q. Again, the Place Vendome is somewhere the jury has
6 visited and they will be able to picture what you are
7 talking about.
8 Thus, did you find yourself walking across
9 the Place Vendome and past the Ritz Hotel?
10 A. That is exactly the route we took. We came into
11 the Place Vendome and on our right was the Hotel Ritz.
12 I can describe what was outside or I can answer your
13 question.
14 Q. What sort of time was it by now?
15 A. It was just before midnight.
16 Q. What did you discover when you got to Place Vendome and
17 were wandering past the Ritz?
18 A. As you walked through the Place Vendome, on our right
19 we saw a crowd of maybe 50 or 60 people and clearly some
20 paparazzi with motor bicycles, one of which I recognised
21 had a particular wicker basket on the back seat so
22 a photographer could stand up and take pictures in it.
23 It was fairly common though to see groups of
24 paparazzi outside the Ritz Hotel, because that is where
25 the great and the good and the pop stars and those
141
1 aspiring to be pop stars used to go and stay. That was
2 about it.
3 Q. Additionally to the paparazzi who you saw, you also
4 noticed there was a crowd developing of onlookers?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. When you went into the Place Vendome, did you have any
7 idea what they were there for?
8 A. I had absolutely no idea. I assumed it was Elton John
9 or Michael Jackson staying.
10 Q. Did your wife approach one of the motorcyclists to
11 inquire, to find out what was going on?
12 A. That is correct. My wife went up to one of the
13 paparazzi on a motor bicycle and asked who it was who
14 was in the hotel and she was informed, "It is your
15 Lady Di and Mr Fayed".
16 Q. By now it was five to midnight?
17 A. It was almost exactly five to midnight.
18 Q. And this was information that your wife passed on to
19 you?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. What was your reaction to being told that
22 the Princess of Wales was in Paris?
23 A. One of great surprise. I had no idea that the Princess
24 was in Paris.
25 Q. Would you have expected to know if there had been any
142
1 official knowledge of her visit?
2 A. Well, all what I call official, be it Royal visits or
3 VIP visits, normally the Embassy is warned well in
4 advance of these visits. Normally reconnaissances take
5 place well beforehand. The normal procedure is that
6 Buckingham Palace would tell the Foreign Office,
7 the Foreign and Commonwealth Office would then tell
8 the Embassy and then really it was the visits officer
9 would take over, deal with his French counterparts and
10 that is how a visit would be organised with
11 the appropriate level of security.
12 Q. And so you would not, as military attache, expect to be
13 informed of an unofficial visit?
14 A. No, sir. We would not be informed of an unofficial
15 visit; official visits, yes, because we often had to
16 look after the Royal Air Force flight coming in, look
17 after the crew and the bill would come to the defence
18 section.
19 Q. So, having discovered, in the way that you have
20 described, that the Princess of Wales was in the Ritz
21 and in Paris, did you linger in the Place Vendome, or
22 what did you do?
23 A. For a short while I did. I had no idea that
24 the Princess was in Paris. For all I knew, it might
25 have been that the Embassy had been told, in which case
143
1 it would have gone via the visits officer and the duty
2 officer who would have informed the Ambassador that
3 she was there and they would have taken the appropriate
4 and necessary action.
5 Q. That is, if they had been told?
6 A. If they had been told.
7 Q. So did you judge that there was anything for you to do
8 at five to midnight on that Saturday night?
9 A. There was nothing much I could do at five to midnight on
10 Saturday night, but I took a good look at what was there
11 and it appeared to me that there was -- I said there was
12 a black UK-registered Range Rover at the front, a couple
13 of very professional-looking people standing beside it,
14 another vehicle behind. It all looked to be perfectly
15 in order as far as I could see.
16 Q. Was it your intention to mention it to the Ambassador
17 the following morning?
18 A. I actually said my intention was to ring the Ambassador
19 at half past eight in the morning and tell him, "Sir,
20 I happened to be passing and were we aware that
21 Princess Diana and Mr Al Fayed are in Paris, and if not,
22 they are".
23 Q. And at this stage, you are still with your wife, your
24 nephew and his friend?
25 A. That is correct.
144
1 Q. And I think you tell us at page 5 of your statement that
2 you had no reason to remain outside of the Ritz and you
3 went off to an Irish bar not very far away?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. And then, would it be right to say that you wandered
6 back to your flat?
7 A. Must have stayed we think about half an hour or 40
8 minutes, thereabouts. I went back to my flat after
9 going to the pub and went to bed.
10 Q. When and in what circumstances did you discover that
11 there had been a crash and that people including
12 the Princess of Wales had died?
13 A. I was well-known up by a telephone from Madame Thibault,
14 who was the wife of the Canadian defence attache, who
15 said was I aware that Princess Diana had been killed in
16 a crash along with Mr Al Fayed, and I said no, I was
17 unaware and I immediately then rang the Embassy.
18 Q. Did you in due course go into the Embassy?
19 A. At that moment I was then called to the Embassy to come
20 in in uniform and medals and be ready for anything.
21 Q. Now, we have already heard from Lord Jay, Sir Michael as
22 he was in 1997, and he has given a quite detailed and
23 quite moving account of his recollection of the events
24 of the day.
25 It is fair to say I think that you were intimately
145
1 involved in making a large number of arrangements,
2 particularly for the Queen's Flight aircraft to come
3 into a military airport and to ensure that everything
4 was done appropriately from the point of view of the
5 Embassy's military staff and also the French.
6 A. That is correct. We had to do two major matters.
7 The first was to get the French Air Force to open
8 Villacoublay which is the equivalent of RAF Northolt, to
9 open it up, get it fully manned.
10 Then a variety of telephone calls were made, mainly
11 to RAF Lyneham where the Royal Air Force regiment bearer
12 party were based, also that we understood that
13 a Hercules was coming in with the coffin. And then
14 a completely separate arrangement was made to welcome
15 Prince Charles and Princess Diana's two sisters and make
16 all the necessary arrangements for them.
17 All the protocol side had to be looked at and even
18 I remember Lady Jay making us all black armbands as at
19 one stage it looked as though we were not going to be
20 able to get the Royal Air Force regiment bearer party
21 and so we telephoned all the way round Army, Navy and
22 Air Force to come in, who were there, ready to act as an
23 informal bearer party.
24 Q. And you were one of those who was in the group that, as
25 you say, met the Prince of Wales and the Princess's
146
1 sisters when they arrived at Villacoublay later on
2 the 31st and you travelled back to the hospital in
3 the vehicles that included the Prince of Wales and
4 the Princess's sisters.
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. I think, Brigadier, it was you, wasn't it, who made
7 the decision that the coffin should be draped with
8 the Royal Standard, given the circumstances and
9 the status of the Princess?
10 A. That is correct. Because when the Royal Air Force party
11 arrived, they brought with them a Union Jack and a Royal
12 Standard. That was then taken to the hospital, and
13 it was only when they were ready to move the body did
14 they say, "By the way, shall we put the Union Jack on
15 the coffin or the Royal Standard?".
16 Having seen and watched what was happening on
17 television and worldwide and the Embassy besieged by
18 people bringing flowers and wanting to sign books, I had
19 nobody to ask at that particular moment; I said, "To my
20 mind, at this moment in time, the right decision to do
21 is to put on the Royal Standard," and that is how it
22 happened.
23 Q. Yesterday, Lord Jay told us that it was a gesture that
24 touched the Prince of Wales himself.
25 A. So I believe, sir.
147
1 MR BURNETT: Thank you very much, Brigadier. Those are my
2 questions.
3 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield?
4 Questions from MR MANSFIELD
5 MR MANSFIELD: Good afternoon. My name is
6 Michael Mansfield. I represent Mohamed Al Fayed.
7 I only have one thing to ask you about.
8 In relation to your work at the British Embassy,
9 would you be going into the Embassy every day or every
10 week; how would it work?
11 A. I would normally go to the Embassy every day and I would
12 work what I call a standard 9 to 5 job unless I was away
13 visiting, attending receptions, whatever. So it was
14 a normal 9 to 5 job, routinely.
15 Q. During that time therefore that you were working based
16 at the Embassy, were you familiar with people who worked
17 for the security services there?
18 A. I had met one or two people who I knew were in
19 the security services, but this is a subject clearly
20 that I do not feel comfortable to talk about.
21 Q. I am only asking you -- don't worry, you are not going
22 to be asked anything, if you know anything about it --
23 how much did you know about that work there? Did you
24 know a lot or a little?
25 A. I think a little is the answer.
148
1 MR MANSFIELD: Thank you.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Weekes?
3 MR WEEKES: No thank you, sir.
4 MR CROXFORD: No thank you, sir.
5 MR HORWELL: No questions.
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Burnett?
7 MR BURNETT: No, sir. Thank you.
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you very much, Brigadier.
9 I am sorry you have been kept so long but at least you
10 have managed to get away before the end of the court
11 day.
12 A. Thank you very much.
13 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: That I think concludes our
14 evidence for today.
15 MR BURNETT: Sir, it does. Forgive the mumbling with
16 Mr Hilliard, I was trying to find out whether we are
17 9.30 or 10.00, tomorrow morning.
18 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I imagine it is 9.30 because
19 France is an hour ahead of us and the witness is going
20 to be in Marseille.
21 MR BURNETT: Somewhere in the South of France anyway, so far
22 as I am aware. 9.30 appears on Lextranet.
23 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: 9.30, members of the jury.
24 (3.03 pm)
25 (The hearing was adjourned until 9.30 am
149
1 on Wednesday, 13th February 2008)
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
150
1
2 INDEX
3
4 LORD ROBERT FELLOWES (sworn) .................... 1
5
6 Questions from MR BURNETT ................. 1
7
8 Questions from MR MANSFIELD ............... 46
9
10 Questions from MR HORWELL ................. 123
11
12 Further questions from MR BURNETT ......... 127
13
14 BRIGADIER CHARLES DAVID McIVER ................... 133
15 RITCHIE (sworn)
16
17 Questions from MR BURNETT ................. 133
18
19 Questions from MR MANSFIELD ............... 148
20
Français