11 February 2008 - Afternoon session
1 (1.50 pm)
2 (Jury present)
3 MR BURNETT: Now, Lord Jay, just before lunch, we had got to
4 your diary and I am going to ask you to read
5 the relevant sections but, first, can I simply establish
6 what the document is? Do you keep a personal diary?
7 A. I did when I was in Paris.
8 Q. Is what we are going to hear the extract that you wrote
9 up on the evening or during the late evening of Sunday
10 31st August?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And that is something that you did before going to bed
13 but on the same day?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I would be grateful then if you could read that for
16 the jury, please.
17 A. "The phone rang about 1.45 am. First Keith Moss, then
18 Tim Livesey, to tell me that there had been a car
19 accident, that Dodi Al Fayed and a chauffeur had been
20 killed and that the Princess of Wales had been seriously
21 injured and was in hospital. Sylvia and I dressed,
22 waited for Tim to arrive in his car and drove to
23 the Pitie-Salpetriere Hospital in the 13th. We found it
24 at the second attempt and were greeted by
25 Jean-Pierre Chevenement, the Interior Minister,
102
1 the directors of the hospital and the Prefect of Police.
2 The Princess was gravely ill, but it was not known if
3 her life was in danger. There would be a bulletin in
4 40 minutes or so.
5 "We went upstairs to a staff room cleared for us.
6 Much mobile telephoning to Balmoral and Manila, where
7 the Foreign Secretary was, and to the FCO resident
8 clerk. No news at 3.00 am, 3.15; longer faces at 3.30.
9 At 3.45, Chevenement, absent for a few minutes, returned
10 to take me aside and say, visibly moved, that
11 the Princess was dead. I telephoned Robin Janvrin in
12 Balmoral, the resident clerk and Manila. Tim and
13 Keith Moss busy too. The hospital surgeons came in with
14 their condolences. After a short but frustrating
15 delay -- because news was leaking out -- we went into
16 some sort of hall for a press conference. The hospital
17 surgeon, Chevenement, me and others. Press all over
18 the place, overflowing the table. The hospital doctor
19 speaks, then Chevenement, then me. We decline to take
20 questions. We go back to the hospital and wait for
21 a bit.
22 "As we walk through the pale grey of early dawn to
23 the press conference, we meet two large Mercedes coming
24 into the hospital. Mohamed Al Fayed gets out of one of
25 them, with others, after flying by helicopter from
103
1 Southern England. He is deeply upset and asks about
2 the Princess. We say she is dead. We offer our own
3 sympathy at the death of his son. Chevenement finds
4 someone to look after him and we go on. After the press
5 conference, Chevenement says he would like to pay his
6 respects to the body. I agree. Chevenement, Sylvia and
7 I go in to see the Princess. A Catholic priest is there
8 too. The Princess is calm, eyes almost closed, bruised
9 but peaceful, under a blanket, only her head showing.
10 "We leave around 7.00 am and drive back to the house
11 for coffee and a shower. Matignon tells me Jospin is
12 flying up from La Rochelle to pay respects.
13 Jean-David Levitte tells me Mme Chirac will be there in
14 half an hour. Sylvia and I dress quickly, for
15 the second time this morning, and drive to the hospital,
16 now with Frank in the Jaguar. Large crowds in the early
17 morning sun. We wait just outside the hospital building
18 with the Prefet. Mme Chirac walks up the path to us.
19 We greet her, talk to her and accompany her to
20 the Princess. She enters, crosses herself and stands
21 quietly. The Catholic priest says a prayer.
22 We withdraw to a hallway. Jospin comes up the stairs.
23 He and Mme Chirac greet each other a little coolly.
24 Sylvia takes Mme Chirac downstairs. I take Jospin in to
25 see the Princess. We stand there alone for a few
104
1 moments. After leaving, I thank him for all his
2 Government have done. He leaves.
3 "Shortly afterwards, Martin Draper, the spiritual
4 Anglican priest at St George's, arrives, summoned by me.
5 He, Sylvia, Jean Gueginou, who arrives to accompany
6 Mme Chirac and Jospin, go into the Princess.
7 Martin Draper reads the commendatory prayers from
8 the Book of Common Prayer. We are all of us moved.
9 "Sylvia, Jean Gueginou, Martin Draper and I squeeze
10 into the Jaguar, drop Jean at the Quai, Martin at
11 St George's Church for the Sunday morning service and
12 drive back here. Keith Moss, the Consul General, stayed
13 at the hospital. The Embassy is full. Some people
14 called in by us, some coming in because they wanted to
15 help. The next few hours are incessant phone calls with
16 Robin Janvrin at Balmoral and Nick Archer from the
17 Prince's staff, Jean-David Levitte at the Elysee,
18 the Prefecture and others. Some of the Princess's staff
19 are here by now. I am not sure where they've come from.
20 None of us here knew the Princess was in Paris and nor
21 did the French authorities.
22 "There is some muddle about her personal effects,
23 left in the Ritz, but they get sorted out.
24 Mohamed Al Fayed rings about his son's funeral. I offer
25 to help and put the consular staff on to him. Juppe
105
1 rings, Simone Veil, Elisabeth Guigou. Then Chirac comes
2 on the phone to talk about the ceremony at the hospital
3 when the Prince arrives to collect the body -- as
4 Balmoral have now decided, rightly, he should, with
5 Sarah McCorquodale and Jane Fellowes coming with him.
6 There are endless little problems, for example about
7 undertakers -- French law does not let foreign
8 undertakers work here apparently, but neither we nor
9 the French authorities let any of this become a problem.
10 "At 4.00 Sylvia and I drive to Villacoublay to meet
11 the Prince. He is delayed a bit, but we walk to
12 the steps to greet him. He is composed, greeting
13 the greeters almost as normal. Sarah and Jane are upset
14 and disoriented. I drive with the Prince, Sylvia with
15 Sarah and Jane. I tell the Prince what I know about
16 the accident and tell him of last night in the hospital.
17 We pause for a bit, driving into a sunny warm Paris,
18 then talk about France. A lot has changed, the Prince
19 says, since we last met before the elections. He says
20 how often tragedies happen in August, the death of
21 Mountbatten, the Gulf War. I tell him what I think will
22 happen at the hospital, though there is bound to be some
23 improvisation.
24 "The crowds on either side of the road are huge as
25 we drive into the gates. At the entrance to
106
1 the building, Chirac and his wife greet the Prince and
2 introduce him to Vedrine, Kouchner and others. Sarah
3 and Jane are introduced too. We go upstairs.
4 The Prince and the sisters go along the corridor to
5 the room with the Princess, Sylvia going with them but
6 staying outside. Martin Draper is with them. I stay in
7 the hallway, talking to Chirac and Vedrine and
8 the Prince's party, including Stephen Lamport. I thank
9 the hospital staff again.
10 "After ten minutes or so, the Prince and the sisters
11 come out of the room. The Prince is introduced by
12 Chirac to the hospital staff. Sylvia takes Sarah and
13 Jane to a small room set aside for them. They are
14 upset. After ten minutes or so, the coffin, draped in
15 the Royal Standard, leaves the room, followed by
16 Martin Draper in white robes and carried by French
17 pall-bearers. It was taken along the few yards of
18 the corridor, across the hallway where we stood with the
19 Prince, Jane and Sarah, the Chiracs, Vedrine, Kouchner
20 Jean Gueginou and the hospital staff. It is taken down
21 the stairs and we follow.
22 "The Prince says thank you to the Paris police in
23 the hall on the ground floor while the coffin is taken
24 down the front steps and past a line of unarmed Gardes
25 Republicaines to be put in the hearse. We follow
107
1 a minute or two later, standing on the steps for a few
2 seconds before going to our cars. The cortege drives
3 slowly out of the hospital gates and turns right past
4 press and rank on rank of French men, women and children
5 and tourists too. As the hearse -- a low-key green
6 van -- passes, they clap and wave goodbye.
7 "The French authorities have cleared the whole route
8 to Villacoublay and the cortege moves with dignity --
9 through central Paris, the western scruffy suburbs and
10 the road to Villacoublay. The Prince says all seems
11 unreal. Our conversation is a little inconsequential,
12 with silences. He was surprised and pleased by
13 the Standard on the coffin. I was surprised too. I do
14 not know where it came from.
15 "At Villacoublay we stood in line on the tarmac.
16 The RAF bearer party took the coffin from the hearse and
17 in a slow march past a line of French soldiers and into
18 the aircraft's hold. The Prince and the Princess's
19 sisters walk to the plane and we say goodbye. We walk
20 back to the grass verge and I talk to Vedrine. He
21 leaves as the plane takes off. We wait til it's in
22 the air, then drive, still with our motorcycle escort,
23 back to Paris, peeling off left across the river as
24 the cars go on to the Quai.
25 "We regroup in my office until about 9, and I send
108
1 off a telegram praising the French authorities' reaction
2 and another on the telephone conversation with
3 the Prefet de Police about the accident. The behaviour
4 of some of the journalists, seven of whom have been
5 arrested, seems appalling. I join Sylvia, Edwin and
6 Joan, who are still here, for supper. Bed, feeling sad
7 and flat and tired."
8 MR BURNETT: Thank you.
9 The telegram you sent that evening said this,
10 I think:
11 "From the president down, the French authorities
12 have dealt with last night's events with extraordinary
13 generosity, efficiency and sensitivity."
14 A. Yes it did.
15 Q. Now, before moving on, Lord Jay, can I, with your help,
16 identify a number of the people who you mentioned in
17 the course of that diary entry. I think most are
18 familiar now to the jury, but it might help if we pulled
19 them together.
20 M Chevenement was who?
21 A. He was the Interior Minister.
22 Q. You mentioned Robin Janvrin, who I think was the Deputy
23 Private Secretary to Her Majesty at the time.
24 A. He was.
25 Q. Sylvia was, of course, your wife.
109
1 A. She is.
2 Q. M Jospin?
3 A. Was the Prime Minister.
4 Q. M Juppe --
5 A. Was a former prime minister and the Mayor of Bordeaux.
6 Q. Simone Veil?
7 A. Was an extremely distinguished French politician.
8 Q. Vedrine?
9 A. Was the Foreign Minister.
10 Q. And lastly you mentioned Edwin and Joan who, in context,
11 infer were your father-in-law and his partner.
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Now, in that very personal diary entry, you of course
14 did not detail all the meetings that had gone on during
15 the day in the Embassy involving all your officials, but
16 nonetheless many officials were involved.
17 A. Yes, many officials were involved. As I said in that
18 diary entry, a number of members of the Embassy came
19 straight to the Embassy when they heard of the accident
20 because they wanted to help. Some came a long way and
21 others I called in myself to make certain that we had
22 the right combination of people to deal with what was
23 going to be clearly a very difficult and fraught and
24 important day.
25 Q. It was as a result of the combined efforts of many
110
1 people, some of whose names you have mentioned earlier
2 in your evidence and no doubt many others whose names
3 you have not mentioned, that all those arrangements were
4 made and flowed remarkably smoothly, given
5 the circumstances?
6 A. Yes, and as you said just now, with the help of the
7 French authorities throughout.
8 Q. Now in the course of the diary entry you read to us, you
9 mentioned that you gave instructions that Mr Al Fayed
10 should be accorded consular facilities.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now that, of course, was unusual and strictly should not
13 have happened as neither he nor Dodi are British
14 nationals.
15 A. The consular officer, who I asked to get in touch with
16 Mr Al Fayed, mentioned that point to me and I said that,
17 in these circumstances, nationality was not relevant and
18 that we should do all that we could to ensure that
19 Dodi Al Fayed's body was returned in time for him to be
20 buried that evening, as I understand that Muslim
21 religion requires.
22 Q. So that was another example, was it, of how petty
23 fogging rules, if I can call them that, without
24 disrespect to those who make them, were simply brushed
25 aside to make sure that everybody was looked after
111
1 appropriately?
2 A. It was a day for common sense rather than for rules.
3 Q. I think you were aware of the urgency in connection with
4 repatriating Dodi's body to the United Kingdom because
5 Mr Al Fayed had spoken to you.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. There are a number of other matters that I must ask you
8 about.
9 You are aware, Lord Jay, that it has been suggested
10 that you personally ordered the embalming of the body of
11 the Princess of Wales on the instructions of MI6 to
12 conceal the fact that the Princess was pregnant with
13 Dodi's child. You are aware of that?
14 A. I am aware of that allegation.
15 Q. The way I put it simply summarises what one reads in
16 a witness statement from Mr Al Fayed. Now, Lord Jay,
17 that topic has been explored in considerable detail with
18 Mr Moss, with those who did the embalming, with
19 Madame Coujard, to whom you are alleged to have given
20 these instructions, but it is right that you should have
21 an opportunity to comment on them yourself. What is
22 your reaction to the allegations that were made?
23 A. There is no truth in them whatsoever.
24 Q. It has also been suggested that Lord Fellowes, who was,
25 at the time, the Queen's private secretary and also
112
1 the brother-in-law of the Princess of Wales, was in
2 Paris on the night of 30th August and had commandeered
3 an operations room in the Embassy essentially to oversee
4 and organise the murder of his sister-in-law. Was
5 Lord Fellowes in Paris?
6 A. No, he was not.
7 MR BURNETT: Thank you, Lord Jay. Those are my questions.
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield?
9 Questions from MR MANSFIELD
10 MR MANSFIELD: Good afternoon, Lord Jay. My name is
11 Michael Mansfield and I represent Mohamed Al Fayed.
12 I just wanted to ask you some questions, some of which
13 deal with structure and so forth of the Embassy.
14 That particular night and day -- that is the
15 Saturday and the Sunday -- particularly on the Saturday,
16 was there a communications room or centre operative in
17 the Embassy? Can you help?
18 A. The normal arrangements were that the Embassy's
19 communications centre would be open on the Saturday
20 morning when traffic used to come in from
21 the Foreign Office, and then it would not open again
22 normally -- I think I am right in saying -- until Monday
23 morning, unless there was a particular reason to expect
24 traffic to come in, in which case there would be
25 a telephone call and then the communications centre
113
1 would be opened to receive whatever traffic was
2 expected. I think that is the position.
3 Q. Is a log kept at the Embassy of incoming communications
4 and outgoing communications and other occurrences,
5 rather like an occurrence book in fact?
6 A. Certainly as far as telegrams and electronic
7 communications, yes, there would be records kept of
8 those telegrams going in and going out.
9 Q. Who would keep them?
10 A. They would be kept by the communications staff,
11 I imagine in the communications room. The head of the
12 communications staff would be responsible for that,
13 I would imagine.
14 Q. If you don't know, then obviously I cannot pursue it
15 with you, but are you aware that some log sheets for
16 this night are missing?
17 A. Those I think are the -- as I understand it, those are
18 log sheets which were kept by the security guard who was
19 on duty and who logged calls coming in to the Embassy
20 out of hours.
21 Q. Have you been asked about this in order to assist locate
22 them?
23 A. No, I have not been asked about it in order to assist
24 locate them.
25 Q. But you know, do you, that some of them are missing?
114
1 A. I was told that when I was reading some papers in order
2 to prepare for this appearance for today.
3 Q. Can you help or not?
4 A. No, I cannot help.
5 Q. Just a final question on this: there is no policy of
6 destruction within the Embassy that you are aware of?
7 A. There was a policy of destroying documents after
8 a certain period of time in order just to keep down
9 the volume of paperwork. I do not know what
10 the arrangements would have been for those records.
11 Q. Well, clearly in the context of what happened that
12 night, obviously records for that night would be
13 considered to be of paramount importance at the time,
14 wouldn't they?
15 A. Of course.
16 Q. Just moving on, if I may, to responsibilities and, in
17 particular, the responsibility which you described
18 before lunch which you had for the security services
19 present at the Embassy, in the Paris station. All
20 right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now I am going to do it in this fashion. May I assure
23 you and anyone else in the room, I am going to take
24 great care how I do it. Could we have on screen
25 [INQ0049222]? If we could have it enlarged,
115
1 because it is a bit difficult to read.
2 This is a document you will be familiar with or you
3 would have been familiar with at the time and since.
4 It is the published Diplomatic List, isn't it? I am
5 sorry, I think you only have a bit of it there.
6 A. Yes, I think so. Yes.
7 Q. Sorry, I think you should be looking at a bit that
8 includes your name. Yes, in fact it does. You will see
9 your name. I just pause. Is it legible to everyone,
10 this screen? I am just checking so that everyone can
11 see it.
12 Now I want to point out that there are a number of
13 names that have already come up today. Your name there
14 as Ambassador. If we run down that right-hand column --
15 I have already indicated that this is for 1998 -- we
16 will see the term "counsellor" that you have already
17 mentioned. Mr Cowper-Coles' name is mentioned a few
18 down from you.
19 Yes, there is the actual hard copy. I do not mind
20 on which you follow it.
21 Then, if we go further down on that list, we get to
22 Mr Moss, the First Secretary Counsel General. Do you
23 see that? Then I am not going through all the names,
24 but just the one that has been highlighted today,
25 "Mr Spearman, First Secretary, Political", underneath
116
1 Mr Moss' name. "First Secretary" -- further down --
2 Economics, Mr Langman", do you see that? Then, under
3 that, another name you have mentioned, Mr Livesey, First
4 Secretary PPA. Then finally, in terms of names
5 mentioned, do you see "Private Secretary,
6 Mr PC Johnston"? So those are the names that have been
7 mentioned. All of those are in the Diplomatic List.
8 Now, it is plain, because it has been agreed, that
9 the Paris Embassy has a station containing security
10 staff and representatives, by which I mean the security
11 services.
12 Now this is the question I ask you, and I do not
13 want an answer to the question other than -- as you will
14 see as it is framed. At the time, in August 1997, did
15 you know how many personnel were engaged by MI6 in your
16 Embassy?
17 A. I would know the senior members of the SIS station, not
18 necessarily some others. I do not think I could, at the
19 time, have answered the question "How many are there?"
20 Q. So, the answer is in 1997 -- the answer to the question
21 is -- and you will appreciate I am not asking you to
22 name or number; in fact just whether you knew.
23 The answer therefore is that you did not know how many
24 people were engaged in the security services based in
25 your Embassy in August 1997?
117
1 A. I would not have known. I would not have been able to
2 answer that question about that or any of the other
3 sections of the Embassy.
4 Q. No, I am concentrating not on other sections, just this
5 section, in terms of really getting to grips with how
6 much you would have known and did know.
7 Since you did not know how many were engaged -- and
8 from your previous answer, you knew the senior people --
9 and again, I am not going to ask for names and numbers,
10 were you aware of how many were declared and how many
11 were undeclared?
12 A. I am, sir, in a position to answer that question, but
13 I would prefer not to unless instructed to do so because
14 I think it breaches the terms in which we normally deal
15 with intelligence matters.
16 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Currently there is no objection
17 from Mr Tam --
18 MR TAM: Sir --
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: There may be.
20 MR TAM: Sir, there is because -- although this particular
21 question, as my learned friend says, has been carefully
22 framed in terms of whether or not Lord Jay knows, if
23 this line of questioning is going somewhere, it is going
24 to irrelevant territory and that is the marker that
25 I have put down at this stage. But the question of
118
1 declared or undeclared officers in the Paris station is
2 one which is not relevant to this inquest.
3 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Well, I am not sure about that.
4 MR TAM: Sir, the reason for that is because that question
5 is simply whether they are declared or undeclared to
6 the French authorities, whereas the issues that are
7 relevant to this inquest are whether or not they are
8 within the effective control either of SIS or of other
9 British authorities.
10 I put down that marker at the moment because, if my
11 learned friend is going in those directions, that is the
12 objection that we would raise.
13 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Well, Mr Burnett, I would like
14 your assistance on this. I am, at the moment, not
15 convinced of the relevance or absence-of-relevance issue
16 in the light of the fairly wide-ranging approach that
17 has been adopted in these inquests. The time may come
18 obviously when the next question is not permissible.
19 MR BURNETT: I think the question that my learned friend
20 asked, if I noted it correctly, and I am afraid -- "Were
21 you aware of how many declared and how many undeclared?"
22 was the paraphrase. That has simply a "yes" or "no"
23 answer.
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Meaning declared to the French
25 authorities?
119
1 MR BURNETT: Yes, which it may be that Lord Jay can answer
2 without difficulty, I know not. But obviously one well
3 understands the sensitivities about going into numbers.
4 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes. Well, I do not think there
5 is any objection to the question being answered "yes" or
6 "no".
7 MR MANSFIELD: I could ask a preparatory question, which
8 I think has in fact already been answered by the way in
9 which reservations are indicated, namely is it right
10 that there are two categories, those declared and those
11 undeclared to the host nation? It seems to be answered
12 and I have gone straight to the question of the
13 proportions or numbers. I am not asking for the actual
14 numbers, just merely was the Ambassador aware of the
15 numbers in 1997 of declared and undeclared. I can
16 explain the relevance if you should need that
17 explaining.
18 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: You had better explain why it is
19 relevant.
20 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, I will.
21 I make the suggestion very clear so that Lord Jay
22 can understand the context of these questions.
23 The allegation certainly concerns the activities of
24 British security services or members of that service in
25 Paris on the night of the 30th in terms of gaining
120
1 information about the movements of Princess Diana and
2 also having gained that information about the movements
3 of the orchestration of an event which ultimately became
4 the crash in the tunnel.
5 We are not suggesting, because we are not in a
6 position to, that this was all formally done at a formal
7 level by declared agents. But there are two streams,
8 declared and undeclared, and then there is a further
9 stream, the use of further people, further agents in
10 Paris, further operatives, who are engaged to do certain
11 tasks. So it is three levels, effectively.
12 So I am really beginning at the top level and
13 working through: first of all, unaware of the numbers
14 employed; secondly, aware of the numbers declared and
15 undeclared; and of course the further question -- I make
16 it clear -- will be: was he aware of who did agent
17 handling. I am not asking for the answer in terms of
18 names or numbers; who was in engaged in surveillance in
19 terms of numbers; was he aware of the numbers and so
20 forth.
21 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I am not convinced as to how this
22 takes you very much further down the road.
23 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, it is this point: if this witness is
24 going to be called for a number of reasons -- and I am
25 not disputing that -- but if the suggestion is that he
121
1 is able to say that there was no operation or exercise
2 that night, which is actually what he is saying, that he
3 is aware of, one needs to know how much he is aware of
4 before one, in other words, assesses the significance to
5 be attached to that answer; in other words, if, for
6 example, at the end of the inquest, during your
7 summing-up to the jury, you were to sum up this part of
8 the evidence to indicate to the jury, well, the
9 Ambassador was unaware, if, of course, it is left on the
10 basis of well he would not necessarily be aware of an
11 operation of the kind that is being posited, that is one
12 thing, but if it is intended that the answer should, as
13 it were, be definitive in relation to this area, then
14 that is the reason for these questions.
15 Of course, there is a witness this week, never mind
16 next week, who will be dealing with -- unless it is
17 prohibited -- precisely these points.
18 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I was just wondering whether
19 the witness who is due to come next week might not be in
20 a better position to target these questions to.
21 MR MANSFIELD: If I may say so, he may be in the best
22 position, but we may not, if I may say so, necessarily
23 receive the material or information from that witness.
24 It is the one this week, on Wednesday, who may have
25 the most to say. It may be challenged but it, as you
122
1 may know, has formed the basis of a belief by the person
2 I represent, because obviously he is not in MI6 and
3 never has been, so he is working on the basis of
4 materials that have been put into the public domain and
5 some of it has been put into the public domain. I do
6 not trespass on what is going to happen or may happen on
7 Wednesday.
8 These are crafted questions based on the materials
9 that have so far been put forward by those who would
10 appear, or at least one, possibly two, who appear to
11 know the workings of the security service without again
12 compromising that working -- I have made that very
13 clear -- or compromising identity or compromising
14 number, but dealing with principle.
15 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Well, I am sympathetic, but it is
16 not an easy area.
17 MR MANSFIELD: No, it is not.
18 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I will just ask Mr Tam. First of
19 all, Mr Tam, is there any objection to Lord Jay
20 answering the question of whether there are those who
21 are declared and those who are undeclared?
22 MR TAM: To that direct question we would raise the
23 objection on the grounds of relevance which, of course,
24 ultimately is a matter for you to rule on, but we do
25 raise that.
123
1 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I am looking a little bit beyond
2 relevance to sensitivities as well at the moment and
3 where it may lead.
4 MR TAM: Indeed.
5 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: It seems to me that, on the face
6 of it, if there is no overriding objection to that
7 question, it, on relevance, would be one that could be
8 answered.
9 MR TAM: Sir, if that is the question which my learned
10 friend wishes to put, then our submission is first of
11 all on the relevance of the issue --
12 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
13 MR TAM: -- and only when you have ruled on it would you be
14 in a position to assess its sensitivity and whether
15 the question could still thereafter be put.
16 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Well, I think it is relevant.
17 MR TAM: If that is where my learned friend is going,
18 then --
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: What is relevant thereafter may
20 be a different matter, but that one question --
21 MR TAM: If it is that one question, then I would not press
22 the objection any further.
23 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: So we can have the answer to that
24 question.
25 Now the next --
124
1 MR MANSFIELD: Let's see if I can remember it.
2 Shall I ask that question and just take it in
3 stages?
4 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes, let's take it in stages.
5 MR MANSFIELD: I am sorry, Lord Jay. It is disjointed in
6 this way.
7 The initial preparatory question is: is it right
8 that there are those within the security services within
9 the Embassy that are declared to the host country and
10 those that are undeclared?
11 A. I think the best way to answer that question, sir, is to
12 say that I was assured by the head of station that all
13 members of the station were declared to the French
14 authorities and I had no reason and have no reason to
15 doubt that assurance that I was given.
16 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you.
17 MR MANSFIELD: But, of course, I am not in a position to
18 discover from you who the head was, let alone who he
19 indicated had been declared. So the question I have to
20 ask you -- I am sorry, I am going slowly here -- is: did
21 that include everybody engaged in security service work
22 at the Embassy?
23 A. Sir, I am not in a position to go beyond the answer that
24 I have given to the earlier question.
25 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I think that is a fair answer,
125
1 isn't it, Mr Mansfield?
2 MR MANSFIELD: Yes. It is an answer.
3 In other words -- sorry, can I put it the other way
4 round --
5 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: This is on the assumption that he
6 can only go as far as he has been told. The information
7 is what he has been told.
8 MR MANSFIELD: Can I just take the learned Coroner's point
9 up? You can only go as far as you have been told. That
10 applies to everything that the head of the section told
11 you; is that right?
12 A. Yes, that is right.
13 Q. Because you don't go round cross-checking that what he
14 has told you is right?
15 A. I had a relationship with him and I had a relationship
16 with the other heads of department in the Embassy which
17 leave me quite confident that when he gave me an
18 assurance of this kind, that was correct.
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I should think you would be
20 pretty upset if you were told something that turned out
21 not to be true.
22 A. I would, sir.
23 MR MANSFIELD: The question was that you don't, as a result
24 of that, go round cross-checking what you are told.
25 A. I take at face value what I am told by those I trust.
126
1 Q. I understand that. Therefore, if you don't know how
2 many are employed or engaged within the security
3 services in the Paris Embassy in August 1997, you are
4 not in a position to confirm or deny whether that is
5 everybody engaged in the security services in
6 the Paris Embassy who have been declared or undeclared,
7 are you?
8 A. I am in a position to give you the assurance that
9 I received from the head of station, which I believe to
10 be true and have no reason to doubt, and I do not see
11 I can go further than that, sir.
12 Q. I am sorry. I just want to press it one stage further,
13 unless there is objection: did it include everyone
14 engaged in the security services in the Paris Embassy?
15 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I think you have tried that
16 question before and I think you had an answer to it.
17 MR MANSFIELD: I will stay with the answer I have unless
18 there is any misunderstanding. All right. I am
19 treading carefully, plainly.
20 The further questions that I wanted to ask you --
21 and may I start with this one in relation to this next
22 section: when was the last meeting you had with the head
23 of the section before Saturday the 30th, the head of
24 this section?
25 A. I cannot recollect when that was. What I can say is
127
1 that every Monday morning in the Embassy I had a meeting
2 of the heads of all the sections together, so everybody
3 was aware of what people were up to, what the big
4 business of the Embassy was that week. So I would have
5 expected the head of the section to have been there on
6 the Monday previously. Whether I had met him during
7 the course of that week, I cannot say.
8 Q. Are records kept of meetings that you have with
9 the heads of the sections?
10 A. Sometimes they would have been, sometimes they would
11 not. If it was an informal meeting, I asked someone to
12 come in and chat, bring me up to date on something, no.
13 Q. Have you seen any records of meetings that week in
14 relation to this section?
15 A. No, I have not.
16 Q. The Diplomatic List has disappeared off the screen, but
17 you still have it in front of you. I am not going to
18 identify anybody, but is it right to say that the list
19 that we have in front of us does contain names of those
20 who work for the security services?
21 A. It contains the lists of those who worked in all
22 sections of the Embassy, including the station, yes.
23 Q. But you cannot tell from the list -- please rest
24 assured, I am not going to ask you which ones they
25 are -- but you cannot tell, from looking at the list,
128
1 which ones they are, can you?
2 A. No, you cannot. It is extremely important that members
3 of the security services, who carry out very important,
4 often dangerous and very difficult tasks on behalf of
5 this country, are able to do so under the cloak of
6 anonymity and confidentiality, otherwise they would not
7 be able to protect us in the way we need to be
8 protected --
9 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: It would destroy the whole
10 purpose of the thing.
11 A. It would destroy the whole purpose of having
12 the security services.
13 MR MANSFIELD: It is built on -- and there is no particular
14 secret -- it is built on authorised deceit, as it were,
15 isn't it?
16 A. I would have said it is based on a common-sense approach
17 to ensuring that people who are doing difficult and
18 dangerous tasks on our behalf are able to continue doing
19 so without being compromised.
20 Q. What was the question, Lord Jay?
21 A. I am afraid I cannot remember the question, sir.
22 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: The question was: was it
23 authorised deceit?
24 MR MANSFIELD: Yes. It is a very straightforward question
25 I want to put to you that it has to be authorised
129
1 deceit; in other words, the person who reads the list is
2 not given any indication of who is doing what and
3 furthermore -- first of all, that is right?
4 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield, surely there is
5 a difference between deliberately misleading and, on the
6 other hand, supplying limited information.
7 MR MANSFIELD: I think it is called "economic with
8 the truth". I will not argue the difference between
9 the two.
10 You do appreciate the point that I am putting to
11 you?
12 A. I am not entirely clear I do, to be honest, no.
13 Q. Let's deal with an agent working in Paris. Is he going
14 to go around using his own name? Is an agent working
15 for MI6 in Paris going to go around using his own name
16 or is he given a false identity to do a certain task
17 that he may have to do, in principle?
18 A. Sir, I do not think I should get into discussions about
19 the operations of the Secret Intelligence Services.
20 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: This is getting into
21 the operational mode of MI6, isn't it, Mr Mansfield?
22 MR MANSFIELD: It is, only in principle though.
23 A. It is always extremely difficult to balance the need for
24 openness and transparency, such as the legitimate public
25 interest in publishing documents of this kind and
130
1 the need to maintain certain degrees of confidentiality,
2 and this list achieves that balance, it seems to me, in
3 a sensible and proper way.
4 Q. Well, these are two questions I flagged up to you
5 a moment ago. You see, in relation to what you
6 indicated before lunch might be the function of MI6, to
7 liaise with French counter-terrorism, anti-drug and so
8 forth and combat international crime -- do you remember
9 that that was the general description that you gave just
10 before lunch as their function?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The reason I am asking is you have been asked to give
13 a description, so I suggest to you that these are
14 question that flow from being asked what the function of
15 MI6 was then. One of the functions of MI6 then was to
16 collect information from informants in France, Paris in
17 particular, wasn't it?
18 A. I am not going to answer questions -- I do not think
19 I should answer questions -- about the operations of
20 the MI6 station in Paris. I have answered questions
21 about the structure and the governance and my
22 relationship with the head of the station. I do not
23 think I should go beyond that.
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: These questions are much better
25 directed to next week's witness, Mr Mansfield.
131
1 MR MANSFIELD: Certainly.
2 Then there are two questions which arise out of it.
3 Sir, you may think that they are operational, in
4 which case I will leave them for either the witness
5 later this week or next week.
6 Were you aware, for example, of which person at the
7 Paris Embassy was responsible for handling informants or
8 agents in Paris?
9 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: That is just a variation,
10 I think, on the last question, Mr Mansfield. It is
11 really I do not think fair on Lord Jay to press these
12 questions to him because next week's witness is going to
13 be much better placed to know precisely where
14 the boundaries of what can be asked and what cannot be
15 asked lie. In those circumstances, you will be able to
16 go as far as you can without going over the line.
17 MR MANSFIELD: I have drawn a careful line. May I finish on
18 this? The reason why I submit it is relevant: he is
19 responsible for the security services in Paris,
20 responsible in terms of reporting back to the Foreign
21 Office and, therefore, in my submission, somebody who
22 has a political responsibility as well as an actual
23 responsibility is surely in a position to deal with
24 principled questions. That is the reason I put them to
25 him. If in fact what he says about MI6 is really
132
1 removed, then I do not spend a great deal more time on
2 it, other than to ask this question.
3 Lord Jay, the security services in fact are not
4 really responsible to you; they are responsible to
5 a headquarters in London, aren't they?
6 A. The relationship is exactly the same as with other
7 sections of the Embassy. For their ordinary day-to-day
8 work they would report back to their headquarters in
9 London, just as the commercial section would report back
10 to the Department of Trade or the agricultural attache
11 would report back to the Ministry of Agriculture. But
12 when there were major issues which arose, they would be
13 brought to my attention and I had overall responsibility
14 for the conduct of the Embassy as a whole, all the
15 different sections in it, including the MI6 station.
16 But of course, yes, their day-to-day operations were
17 conducted through their headquarters and on the
18 instructions of their headquarters in London.
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: If anything came to your notice
20 that for whatever reason you did not approve of, whether
21 in the MI6 section or any of the other sections for
22 which you were ultimately responsible in Paris, I take
23 it that you would have taken it up with headquarters in
24 London?
25 A. I would have done. I would have done, and on occasions
133
1 that did happen and I did.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: If you could not get satisfaction
3 out of the head of section on the spot.
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 MR MANSFIELD: That is all premised on the fact that
6 somebody tells you, isn't it?
7 A. It is premised on the fact that I have a relationship of
8 trust with those working for me and that I trust what
9 they say to me, yes. That is true for the head of that
10 section as for other sections of the Embassy, which is
11 the basis on which I tried to manage the Embassy.
12 Q. I want to ask you about a document please,
13 [INQ0049253].
14 Again, I am going to take this document very
15 carefully. If there is a hard copy available.
16 This is a letter which you will see is dated in
17 1998, so it is a year later. You were still in Paris at
18 this time?
19 A. Yes, I was.
20 Q. It is addressed to one of the names on that list that
21 we just saw, the Diplomatic List, Mr Paul Johnston,
22 Second Secretary.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. It is from, in fact, the examining magistrate, the juge
25 in France, Herve Stephan. His name is up there in
134
1 the top left-hand corner. There had been a preceding
2 telephone call. As the jury do not have this part of
3 the document, if I may just read this part:
4 "Further to our telephone conversation, we can
5 confirm that as part of the investigation into the
6 accident in the Alma Tunnel on 31st August 1997, we have
7 had occasion to interview at his request one
8 Richard Tomlinson. In his interview the person
9 concerned, who claims to be a former British
10 intelligence officer, supplied the following information
11 of his own accord.
12 "In 1992, in the course of his work, he claims to
13 have become aware of a plan to assassinate the Serbian
14 President, Milosevic, whereby Milosevic's driver was to
15 be blinded by a flash in a tunnel. Having seen
16 a television programme in which a witness claimed to
17 have seen a flash in the tunnel at the time of the
18 accident on 31st March 1997 [obviously the wrong date],
19 Mr Tomlinson says that he thought that there may be
20 a connection without, however, drawing any further
21 conclusions."
22 The first question is: did you ever see this letter?
23 A. I have no recollection of it, no.
24 Q. Were you ever asked by Mr Johnston for your assistance?
25 A. My assistance in what?
135
1 Q. Well, here is an important matter. The juge
2 investigating the crash is writing to the Embassy asking
3 for help and observations. What I am going to do before
4 the next page -- don't put it up just yet. The reason
5 I am being careful is obvious on the sheet, for those
6 who have it [INQ0049254].
7 Is there possibly a way of just having up everything
8 down to the name "Spearman" and nothing beyond that?
9 I do not know whether that is being clear. Just on the
10 screen, down to the words "... at the Embassy of
11 a Mr Spearman", but nothing beyond that.
12 Can you do it before you put it up? I am sorry to
13 be particular. I am just trying to be careful.
14 Thank you very much. Could we have the written bit
15 enlarged?
16 Sorry, I will have to read a bit of the redaction
17 and not all of it. This is how the letter goes on:
18 "Again, in the course of his work, he apparently had
19 sight of the existence of an informant identified by
20 a code consisting of a P followed by numbers, described
21 as a Frenchman working in the security section of the
22 Ritz Hotel. Mr Tomlinson does not claim, however, that
23 it was Henri Paul.
24 "The witness also states that an English
25 photojournalist was also an informant. He did not give
136
1 his name and in no way claimed that the person concerned
2 was in Paris at the time of the accident."
3 I am just going to read part of the next sentence.
4 "Finally, in a letter that he sent to us recently,
5 Mr Tomlinson refers to the presence en poste at
6 the Embassy of a Mr Spearman."
7 I don't read the rest.
8 Do you remember seeing -- this is the next bit of
9 the letter as it were. Does this begin to jog any bells
10 as a letter that you first of all saw?
11 A. I do not recall having seen this letter. I do recall
12 that there were allegations by Mr Tomlinson. I do not
13 recall having seen this letter, but this was 11 years
14 ago and I cannot exclude that I did. I have no
15 recollection of it now.
16 Q. You see, they are asking for -- although I think this
17 part is redacted, they are asking for cooperation and
18 observations about all of this. Would you not have
19 expected, as the Ambassador, to have been apprised of
20 these inquiries by the French authorities?
21 A. I would have expected that the Embassy would have been
22 apprised, as clearly they were, as a result of the
23 letter to Paul Johnston, who was the member of the
24 Embassy who was responsible for dealing with issues
25 relating to the inquiries underway.
137
1 Q. You see the point I want to put to you is that here is
2 an important event. Can you remember a meeting on
3 a Monday in December 1998 or November, for that matter,
4 but after December 1st 1998, in which you are made aware
5 that the French juge is wanting the Embassy's help with
6 regard to plainly the possibility of material being
7 available from MI6 at the Embassy? Was that ever raised
8 with you by the head of the section?
9 A. I cannot recall whether it was or not. As I say, I know
10 that -- I do recall there being issues -- I do recall
11 there being allegations raised by Mr Tomlinson. I do
12 not recall exactly how they were handled in the Embassy
13 or who responded to them or what happened to them, to be
14 honest.
15 Q. You see, the reason I am asking you is that you did make
16 an observation earlier today that in fact, to use your
17 words, you would not expect the head of the section to
18 be telling you everything they got up to.
19 A. That is correct. I did say that and that is true.
20 Q. Well, there is a reply that goes in the same month. Can
21 we have -- I just want to check. I do not think there
22 is anything on this. It is [INQ0008320].
23 Yes, there is nothing in this part. I just again want
24 to ask you about one of the letters on screen. It is
25 dated 16th December.
138
1 It is a letter that does not answer all the points,
2 but answers some of them. It is not so much the content
3 for the moment as the fact of the reply. Do you
4 remember ever reading that or seeing it or being told
5 about it? Any of those?
6 A. I remember the issue being raised. I cannot remember
7 seeing particular letters about it, no, I cannot. I may
8 have seen it, I may not have done. I simply cannot
9 remember.
10 Q. I want to ask you about another document that arises
11 from the French documentation. Could we have
12 [INQ0051082] please? Now this is an article dated
13 June 9th 2000. The first question I want to ask before
14 we look at some names on here, does the name
15 "James Andanson" mean anything to you?
16 A. It did not until this morning, when it was mentioned to
17 me by the legal counsel. At least I may have seen
18 references to the name in press cuttings recently, but,
19 no, it did not mean a great deal to me.
20 Q. You see, he died in a fire in June 2000 near the
21 Millau Bridge, towards the South of France. This
22 article describes the death and various questions
23 arising from it and it was sent by the Vice-Consul in
24 Bordeaux, Mr Paul Dixon. Did you know him at the time?
25 A. Yes, I did know Mr Dixon.
139
1 Q. I am wondering whether this rings any bells because
2 I cannot suggest it is necessarily his writing here on
3 the copy that appears to have been sent to the juge
4 investigating that death, but you will see in -- can
5 we highlight the writing at the top -- it says "Copy to
6 [you]". Did you get a copy?
7 A. It was clearly copied to me. Whether I saw it would
8 depend upon whether I was around at the time, whether my
9 private secretary would have shown it to me. I have no
10 recollection of seeing it, but I cannot rule out that
11 I saw it at the time.
12 Q. You see, if it was merely a passport inquiry, they
13 certainly would not need to trouble you with that, would
14 they? A vice-consul would not need to ask you to do
15 that. He would write to the passport or visa section of
16 the Embassy, would he not, or he would ask for it to be
17 copied to them?
18 A. I think that that writing is the -- that distribution
19 list is --
20 Q. Is what?
21 A. It is in the handwriting of the press counsellor,
22 Tim Livesey. It is perfectly normal that he would have
23 copied to me something that appeared in the press in
24 relation to the death of the Princess of Wales, which is
25 what I would have expected.
140
1 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: He has also copied it to a number
2 of other people.
3 MR MANSFIELD: I am going to come to that. The way we have
4 it is not from Mr Livesey but from Mr Dixon. So, in
5 other words, the copy that we have is the copy that he
6 sent to the juge in the South of France, to be
7 particular, Montpellier. So it is unlikely that this
8 copy that we have copied has the writing of Mr Livesey
9 on it, although one can see -- I think if you look
10 carefully, his name is there, isn't it, next to the word
11 "Paris"? Can you see where I am --Perhaps it could be
12 highlighted? I am just asking you, can you see the word
13 "Paris" on the right-hand side and then, to the left of
14 that, appears to be a name. It looks a bit -- it
15 appears to be that.
16 First of all, it is a bit complicated. Do you
17 understand the route by which we have this document?
18 I can explain it again if you would like me to.
19 A. My reading of this document is that it was copied to
20 Mr Livesey in Paris by a member of the Foreign Office
21 News Department and Mr Livesey, in Paris, circulated it
22 within the Embassy in Paris, but I do not quite
23 understand the Bordeaux connection.
24 Q. Let me explain it again. On June 20th 2000, Paul Dixon,
25 your Vice-Consul in Bordeaux, following a telephone
141
1 called, enclosed, for the juge's information, a copy of
2 an article published in the June 9th 2000 issue of
3 the British Daily Express.
4 Now this is the enclosed article, because we have it
5 as part of the Andanson dossier from the South of
6 France; in other words, this one, this particular copy,
7 has not gone to Paris, it has gone to the juge. What
8 I am suggesting to you is that Mr Dixon has itemised,
9 for circulation of this death, you and then
10 Richard Spearman right underneath. Do you see that?
11 A. Yes, but he has not. Tim Livesey has circulated it.
12 Q. How do you know that?
13 A. Because it says "TL, 13/6".
14 Q. There seems to be a slight difference of opinion.
15 Where is the "TL"?
16 A. The writing, "Michael Jay ...", et cetera, that is
17 Tim Livesey's handwriting, so he circulated it.
18 Q. Right. Well, there is a possibility -- I follow what
19 you are saying -- that if it is Mr Livesey, that somehow
20 or another he has sent it to Bordeaux and the Bordeaux
21 Vice-Consul has sent it on to the juge. I appreciate
22 what you are saying. I see where you are saying it is
23 "TL" and that is Mr Livesey. Let's work on that
24 assumption, that it is Mr Livesey. Why is he
25 circulating that to you?
142
1 A. Because he was the press counsellor and he, as you will
2 remember from reading out the diary, was with me that
3 night, was still in the Embassy, and it seems to me,
4 although I cannot remember seeing it, a perfectly
5 natural thing for him to do, to send me a copy of
6 a press cutting which made allegations about the events
7 surrounding the death of the Princess of Wales. That is
8 what I would have expected him to do. As I say, whether
9 I saw it at the time or not, I honestly cannot remember.
10 Q. We have heard about Mr Spearman and his name is on the
11 list. Do you recognise any of the other names that are
12 spelled out here? Can I go through them as we think
13 they are because you may be in a position to correct it.
14 Is the next one down "Stuart Gregory"?
15 A. "Gregson".
16 Q. Now, in which department does he feature?
17 A. As far as I remember, he was a successor to Keith Moss
18 as Consul General. Certainly he was a consular
19 official. So he would have been interested in anything
20 that related to the death of a British subject or
21 someone who might have been a British subject in France.
22 Q. Mr Spearman, why would he have been interested?
23 A. As with Mr O'Flaherty, members of the political section
24 of the Embassy who would have been interested.
25 Q. We can see O'Flaherty. Is it "Kevin" or "Ken"?
143
1 A. "Ken".
2 Q. So he is in the political section. Then, to the right,
3 does it say "Gillian Roberts"?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In which section does she feature?
6 A. I cannot say, I am afraid.
7 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Immediately above
8 "Gillian Roberts" is something that looks like "PSA" and
9 then an illegible word and a colon.
10 MR MANSFIELD: It may be a name -- the best I can do is
11 "Malone". Do you see? It is not on the screen. If we
12 go to the right of the learned Coroner's observations
13 about "PSA:", and then it looks like Mr Malone --
14 A. Oh yes, he was in the Foreign Office in London.
15 Q. He was in London? Then can you help us with -- I cannot
16 quite see whether it is "DCB".
17 A. No, it is "EUDB", which stands for "European Union
18 Department Bilateral" and I think it is Malone or
19 something like Malone who was the official in that
20 department who was responsible for links/liaison with
21 the Paris Embassy.
22 Q. So he is based in London?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In the Foreign Office?
25 A. He is based in the Foreign Office in London, yes.
144
1 Q. Thank you for your assistance on this.
2 I think beyond looking at that now and trying to
3 interpret it, you don't know anything more about it. Is
4 that what you are saying?
5 A. It was clearly copied to me, but as I said earlier on,
6 I have no recollection of seeing it, but I cannot
7 exclude that I did.
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Does it read, "Can you do a quick
9 Paris passport check?", or have I read the wrong words
10 following each other?
11 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, I think you are right. It does over the
12 top.
13 In the middle, just to finish on this, that is
14 between the two columns, as has been read out.
15 Underneath "Gillian Roberts" -- would you just follow to
16 see if we have got this right since you may be more
17 familiar with the writing -- "Can you do a quick ..."
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. "... Paris passport check". Then it has "15/6",
20 meaning, I suspect, 15th June, because we see at the top
21 it is faxed on 16th June, so it may well have been that
22 way round.
23 Can I ask you --
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: "13/6".
25 MR MANSFIELD: Is it "13"?
145
1 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: "13/6" is in the middle of the
2 highlighted bit --
3 MR MANSFIELD: And there is "15/6" below that. So those
4 appear to be the days.
5 Just underneath the word "quick", is that
6 Mr Johnston again, in the "[something] department"?
7 A. I do not know, I am afraid. I mean, I am afraid I have
8 not yet had time to read the substance of the article
9 itself, but if it is about a British subject who had
10 been killed or somebody who might have been a British
11 subject who had been killed in the South of France, then
12 it would have been entirely proper and normal for
13 the consular official in Bordeaux to be wanting to
14 establish his identity, whether he was British or not,
15 because it would have been his duty to help him or help
16 the family or try to find out something about
17 the accident. That I think is -- seems to me what lies
18 behind it.
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: So a quick Paris passport check
20 would be for you to check as to whether he was
21 the holder of a British passport?
22 A. It would be "Would the Paris Embassy please check
23 whether the Paris Embassy records have him down as being
24 a British citizen or a dual citizen" because, if so,
25 then it would have been the responsibility of
146
1 the consular official in Bordeaux to offer what
2 assistance he might need or his family might need or to
3 establish the facts.
4 MR MANSFIELD: Were you aware that Mr Gargan, the liaison
5 officer in the Embassy at the time -- you remember him;
6 you have mentioned him today --
7 A. Yes, I do remember him.
8 Q. Are you aware that he apparently provided the name
9 "Andanson" to the French inquiry at some time?
10 A. No, I was not aware of that.
11 Q. I want to ask you about your awareness of visits -- do
12 you remember? You have been asked about that earlier
13 today -- by the Princess in the context of -- Dodi, you
14 said you weren't aware of a visit in July. Were you
15 aware of a visit in July by the Princess to
16 Mohamed Al Fayed's property with her sons and Dodi being
17 present at some point? Were you aware of that visit?
18 A. I can remember reports of that visit and I remember,
19 I think, photographs of that visit, but I cannot now
20 remember whether I was aware of that because I saw them
21 afterwards, when there was so much in the press, or
22 whether I saw them at the time. That, I am afraid,
23 I cannot remember.
24 Q. What you were saying was: we might have been aware as
25 a topic of discussion if the July visit had featured.
147
1 Was there any discussion about the fact that she had in
2 fact been to France and was notified to the British
3 Embassy in July?
4 A. I do not recollect any conversations about earlier
5 visits she had paid to France.
6 Q. Would you expect to be told?
7 A. It would depend on the circumstances. If there was --
8 as I think I said this morning, there were a large
9 number of visits by members of the Royal Family to
10 France and there was a well-tried process for handling
11 those and for providing whatever help or security was
12 asked for or protection was asked for. If this was
13 a routine visit, I would not necessarily know about it,
14 although it might be mentioned during the course of one
15 of our regular Monday morning meetings, say, and we were
16 going round the table saying who is expected in France
17 this week. So I might have been told, but I might not
18 have been told.
19 Q. I want to suggest that it was not a routine visit. In
20 fact it was a somewhat unusual visit in the sense that
21 Princess Diana was going with the two sons and
22 protection officers to Mohamed Al Fayed's premises in
23 the South of France, St Tropez. I want to ask you this:
24 Simon Ferrand, do you know him?
25 A. Yes, he was the visits officer in the Embassy.
148
1 Q. Can we have on screen please [INQ0052400]? Could
2 we have the bottom part highlighted? These are
3 the details of that visit and Simon Ferrand's name is
4 there at the British Embassy in Paris. Were you told
5 anything of what went on, the arrangements, how long it
6 was going to be for? Was that discussed with you?
7 A. I do not remember. I do not remember, sir, no.
8 Q. You see, what I want to suggest to you is that you are
9 not necessarily kept in the loop about what is going on,
10 even in the diplomatic front, are you?
11 A. Yes. I was kept informed about those things which were
12 important for the Embassy and which the other members of
13 the Embassy thought it necessary that I should know.
14 A number of visits by members of the Royal Family
15 I would certainly be told about, took part in myself.
16 If it was one which was outside Paris and which did not
17 appear to raise particular issues, then I would expect
18 that to be handled by the well-tried and trusted
19 arrangements for handling Royal visits. What was
20 the date of this one? It is not here.
21 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: 8th July, I think it is.
22 MR MANSFIELD: They actually go on the 11th. I think
23 the date is on the top.
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: It is certainly on the bottom.
25 MR MANSFIELD: It is around the 8th.
149
1 A. I am afraid I have not read this in detail, but this was
2 a visit by the Princess of Wales with Prince William and
3 with Prince Henry.
4 Q. That is right.
5 A. They had protection officers with them, everything was
6 properly organised, properly arranged. The visits
7 officer in the Embassy was aware of the visit, would be
8 able to give whatever help was needed or was asked for.
9 Q. Were you made aware of any reservations at the English
10 end about this visit?
11 A. No.
12 Q. During the summer, I appreciate, of course, you will not
13 be keeping an eye on everything, but part of your
14 function is assessing what is going on in France that
15 might affect England and might affect your relationship
16 with France. Is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Were you aware, during the summer, of the increasing
19 regular and consistent publicity relating to
20 Princess Diana and Dodi Al Fayed?
21 A. As I said just now, I have vividly in my mind press
22 coverage of those visits, but I simply cannot remember
23 now whether I saw that press coverage at the time or
24 whether it is in my mind because it was given a great
25 deal of publicity after the accident.
150
1 Q. Well, is there somebody, for example like Mr Livesey,
2 who would be monitoring the press in France for issues
3 related to Franco-English relations?
4 A. He would certainly be monitoring the press, yes.
5 Q. Would he be reporting back to you about issues in
6 the press?
7 A. Well, he would be reporting back about certain issues,
8 yes. He would be reporting back about a big political
9 issue, elections, prospective visits and so on from
10 France to Britain. Whether he would be reporting back
11 on visits, Royal visits which were already known, I do
12 not know.
13 Q. One more issue: in the week before she died, there was
14 an article published in Le Monde. I know it is a long
15 time ago and I am sorry to tax you with this, but it was
16 quite an important issue that she was touching on. I am
17 not suggesting that the interview was conducted in that
18 week; it was conducted earlier, but reported in that
19 week.
20 It in fact resulted in quite a lot of controversy
21 and that is an interview with Princess Diana in Le Monde
22 in which she talked about landmines, her campaign in
23 relation to that and, it is said, was critical of the
24 British Government. Do you remember any of that?
25 A. I remember the issue surrounding landmines. I remember
151
1 her visits to Angola and I think Bosnia and I had great
2 admiration for the work she was doing.
3 Q. So far, no one has disagreed with that. The question
4 now is: were you aware of the political fallout as
5 a result of this article published at the end of August
6 in the week before she died?
7 A. No, I was not. If it was the very end of August,
8 towards the end of my holidays, I think I was with
9 friends in France in Brittany, I think, or Normandy, so
10 I am not sure that I would have been reading the press
11 as assiduously as I normally do. I was aware of the
12 issue, but not of the cuttings.
13 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, I reserve the other questions for the
14 other witnesses.
15 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: There was one other matter. When
16 Mr Moss gave evidence, which admittedly was some
17 considerable time ago, you cross-examined him quite
18 vigorously about --
19 MR MANSFIELD: Yes, whether he was told --
20 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: -- whether he was told by
21 the official, who appeared to be somewhat senior.
22 MR MANSFIELD: He was not sure whether he told this witness,
23 but I could ask him. Can I just ask that?
24 Mr Moss recalled a conversation at the hospital with
25 somebody he could not identify, and the person that he
152
1 thought he was talking to had something to do with
2 protection and security, the French security services,
3 but he had no name and he had no position. But what he
4 was told effectively was this: had the French been told
5 in any way of this visit, they could have taken or might
6 have taken steps to prevent it, such as discreet or
7 covert surveillance. That is the conversation. The
8 first thing is: did he tell you about this?
9 A. He may well have done. I certainly remember, by the end
10 of that day, as I said in the diary entry that I read
11 out a little while ago, I was aware that the French were
12 not aware of the visit and it is quite possible that
13 Keith Moss had reported that conversation to me. I am
14 quite certain that what the French man, whoever he was,
15 said was right, that had the French known, they would
16 have provided some kind of assistance.
17 I think when you said "surveillance", I imagine that
18 is the French "surveillance", meaning look after, rather
19 than provide covert --
20 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: That was my recollection,
21 certainly?
22 A. So indeed I think the French would have provided that.
23 So indeed would we, if we in the British Embassy had
24 been approached on that night or that afternoon by
25 the Princess of Wales' entourage, anybody with her, and
153
1 said, "Look, she is worried about the paparazzi. Is
2 there anything you can do to help?" We would have got,
3 in the normal way, straight on to the French authorities
4 and said, "Look, the Princess of Wales is here, she is
5 concerned about this, can you please provide some kind
6 of assistance or security for her to ensure that she
7 does not get harassed by them", and we would have been
8 only too pleased to have done that.
9 Q. If you had just been aware that she was in Paris or the
10 French had been aware that she was in Paris, would the
11 same have applied? If she had not asked for protection,
12 would you --
13 A. If she had just been in Paris and there was no reason to
14 suppose that there was anything untoward or that she had
15 any concerns, we would not have offered it because she
16 would have been travelling in these circumstances as
17 a private individual and the arrangement with the Palace
18 was that when travelling as a private individual, she
19 did not seek or require assistance. But, I mean, if
20 there had been any suggestion at all that she would
21 welcome it, then we would have done our best
22 straightaway to provide it or get the French to provide
23 it. It would have been for them to do.
24 Q. Are you aware of whether the French authorities do in
25 fact provide discreet or covert surveillance on people
154
1 they are informed about?
2 A. I do not know. All I know is that whenever we had
3 people visiting us, whether they were members of the
4 Royal Family or prime ministers or ministers or whoever
5 and we asked for protection to be provided, it would be
6 provided.
7 MR MANSFIELD: Thank you.
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Weekes?
9 MR WEEKES: No, thank you, sir.
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Croxford?
11 MR CROXFORD: No, thank you, sir.
12 MR HORWELL: No, thank you, sir.
13 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Burnett? I suppose I ought to
14 have asked Mr Tam.
15 MR TAM: No, thank you, sir.
16 MR BURNETT: Just one matter if I may, Lord Jay.
17 Further questions from MR BURNETT
18 MR BURNETT: Coming back if we may to the Daily Express
19 article, you observed that you had not had a chance to
20 read the article itself.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. But observed that if it is suggested that Mr Andanson
23 was or might have been a British national, then that
24 would have alerted the consular service?
25 A. Yes.
155
1 Q. Perhaps I can just read to you one short extract from it
2 and see whether you believe that this would have been
3 sufficient to do so:
4 "On the edge of Lignieres village, the house called
5 Le Manoir de la Bergerie has a union flag fluttering in
6 the garden, a symbol, his wife said, of Andanson's great
7 affection for Britain."
8 Is that the sort of trigger that you had in mind, if
9 not those precise words?
10 A. If the Consul General had seen an article that suggested
11 that somebody who was as British as that had been --
12 apparently died or had died an unnatural death, then he
13 would have wanted to have discovered more about it.
14 It would have been his duty and quite the proper thing
15 to do.
16 Q. Can I ask you to look at the letter that was written by
17 the Vice Consul in Bordeaux to the juge in the relevant
18 part of France? It is [INQ0051081].
19 One sees that it is written on 19th June 2000, so
20 a few days after the dates that we have been looking at
21 on the article. It is addressed to Mlle Marty,
22 the juge, and I wonder, Lord Jay, for my benefit if
23 no one else's, if you would be kind enough to translate
24 what was being said to the juge?
25 A. She says:
156
1 "Madame Judge, following our telephone earlier
2 today, I am attaching for your information a copy of an
3 article that appeared on 9th June 2000 in the British
4 Daily Express. If it turns out that M Andanson was
5 a British national or possessed dual British and French
6 nationalities, I would be extremely grateful if you
7 could let me know. Yours sincerely, Paul Dixon."
8 Q. I assume you have not seen that letter before?
9 A. No.
10 Q. But does that, to your mind, explain exactly what was
11 going on?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR BURNETT: Thank you. Those are my questions.
14 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Lord Jay, thank you very much
15 indeed for your time and the obvious thought that you
16 have given to this.
17 I am particularly grateful to you for reading out
18 the contents of your diary, which I dare say was written
19 with posterity in mind rather than an English court.
20 But we are grateful to you for coming, and thank you.
21 A. Thank you, sir.
22 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Now, Mr Burnett, I think we have
23 a witness statement to be read now, is that right?
24 MR BURNETT: Sir, yes. It is quite a short one. So I can
25 either read it now or after we have a short break, but
157
1 it is the last business for today.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I think probably, unless I see
3 a revolution from the shorthandwriters, we will read it
4 now.
5 Witness statement of MS SUSAN LE JEUNE D'ALLEGEERSHECQUE
6 (read)
7 MR BURNETT: Sir, this is the witness statement of
8 Susan le Jeune d'Allegeershecque and it is dated
9 17th December 2007. It reads as follows:
10 "I, Susan le Jeune d'Allegeershecque, of the Foreign
11 and Commonwealth Office, King Charles Street, London
12 SW1, will say as follows:
13 "1. I have been a member of the Foreign and
14 Commonwealth Office since 1985 and am currently
15 Director, Human Resources. My previous jobs include
16 a posting in what was then called Personnel Management
17 Department from January 1996 to April 1999.
18 "2. There is attached to my statement an annex
19 Consisting of a ten-page bundle of documents including,
20 at pages 1 and 6, two documents both entitled 'Overseas
21 posting notification'. An overseas posting notification
22 sets in train the process for posting an officer
23 overseas. All the documents in the bundle were
24 retrieved from the files of the British Embassy in
25 Paris.
158
1 "3. The first document is a copy of the overseas
2 posting notification for Nicholas Langman. It is dated
3 18th May 1994 and was signed on that date by an
4 official, in what was then called the FCO's Personnel
5 Management Department. The copy of the document in
6 the bundle has a number of small redactions to remove
7 irrelevant detail such as the name of an official, the
8 date and month of birth of a child and part of
9 a telephone number. There are similar small redactions
10 in the copies of other documents in the bundle.
11 "4. The overseas posting notification includes
12 Mr Langman's grade, 'DS5' (Diplomat Service Grade 5) and
13 his present post, 'ADS' (African Department-Southern).
14 The overseas posting notification also records
15 Mr Langman's departure from that post on 29th April 1994
16 and his interim slot code as 'Margin'. Each job in
17 the Foreign and Commonwealth Office has slot code and
18 when an officer is between jobs, for example taking end
19 of tour leave, maternity leave or undergoing language
20 training, the interior designation is 'Margin'.
21 The date of arrival at the new post of Paris is
22 scheduled to be 1st October 1994 for a period of two
23 plus two years, that is, a total of four years, with
24 mid-tour leave after two years.
25 "5. In fact, Mr Langman departed from Paris on
159
1 27th August 1998 and the annex includes a copy of
2 Mr Langman's departure report, a notification to
3 the protocol department of the French Ministry of
4 Foreign Affairs and other documents dealing with
5 the transport of his heavy baggage.
6 "6. The document at page 6 is the overseas posting
7 notification for Richard Spearman. This form was
8 produced by a computer and is dated 18th December 1996.
9 The form again shows the grade DS5 and the 'Margin'
10 designation for the period 1st April 1997 to
11 30th June 1997. (Although the form describes this as
12 'present posting', the computer system is in fact set up
13 to record the post immediately preceding the overseas
14 posting). The date of arrival at the new post in Paris
15 is scheduled to be 1 July 1997 for a period of two plus
16 two years. There are several manuscript annotations.
17 The first is dated 23/12/1996 by an official in 'PG1,
18 PMD', which stands for postings group 1, personnel
19 management department. There are also manuscript
20 annotations in the top right-hand corner and what
21 appears to be a date '9/i' which I take to mean
22 9th January.
23 "7. The exhibit bundle also includes a letter dated
24 23rd March 1997 from Mr Spearman to the management
25 counsellor at the Paris Embassy about accommodation and
160
1 a reply from the Embassy dated 5th April 1997. There
2 are also documents relating to the transport of heavy
3 baggage and to travel details, showing that these were
4 arranged in the middle of August 1997.
5 "8. It was the practice of the Foreign and
6 Commonwealth Office in the relevant period (1994 to
7 1997) and remains the practice to schedule the posting
8 of officers well in advance and the attached overseas
9 posting notifications are in accordance with this
10 practice. The purpose of arranging postings well in
11 advance is to allow proper business planning for posts
12 overseas as well as to allow officers to make
13 the necessary arrangements for language training,
14 transport of heavy baggage, accommodation, schooling and
15 so forth. This process can be seen in the other
16 documents relating to Mr Langman and Mr Spearman."
17 She goes on to say:
18 "I believe that the facts stated in this witness
19 statement are true", and then signs it.
20 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Well, now, Mr Burnett, what are
21 we going to do about the clip of documents, the ten
22 pages? They really add I think nothing of consequence
23 to the statement, do they, except that they support what
24 it says?
25 MR BURNETT: Sir, I was not proposing to read them out and
161
1 it would be a laborious and fairly meaningless exercise.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: It does not seem to me to serve
3 any purpose in either reading them out or putting them
4 into the jury bundle, but they are there if anyone wants
5 them at any stage.
6 MR BURNETT: Well, all the interested persons have had the
7 documents and, as you say, sir, they support
8 the narrative that one finds in Mrs le Jeune
9 d'Allegeershecque's statement.
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you. And that is as far as
11 we can go today. Is that right?
12 MR BURNETT: It is, sir, yes.
13 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: So we will resume at 10 o'clock
14 tomorrow morning.
15 10 o'clock, members of the jury, and we have --
16 MR BURNETT: Sir, we have Lord Fellowes in the morning and
17 Brigadier Ritchie in the afternoon.
18 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you.
19 (3.27 pm)
20 (The hearing was adjourned until 10.00 am
21 on Tuesday, 12th February 2008)
22
23
24
25
162
1
2 INDEX
3
4 MR STUART HOWARD BENSON (sworn) .................. 2
5
6 Questions from MR BURNETT ................. 2
7
8 Questions from MR MANSFIELD ............... 40
9
10 Questions from MR HORWELL ................. 43
11
12 MS KAREN JANE MACKENZIE (sworn) .................. 59
13
14 Questions from MR HOUGH ................... 59
15
16 Questions from MR HORWELL ................. 73
17
18 LORD JAY (sworn) ................................. 76
19
20 Questions from MR BURNETT ................. 76
21
22 Questions from MR MANSFIELD ............... 113
23
24 Further questions from MR BURNETT ......... 155
25
163
1 Witness statement of MS SUSAN LE ................. 158
2 JEUNE D'ALLEGEERSHECQUE (read)
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
164
Français