Hearing transcripts

7 March 2008 - Morning session

1 Friday, 7th March 2008
2 (9.30 am)
3 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Good morning, can you hear us in
4 France?
5 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: Good morning, sir, yes we can.
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We have one short administrative
7 matter to deal with when the jury is in and then we will
8 start with the evidence.
9 (Jury present)
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Hough, I propose in due course
11 to have read some statements under Rule 37 as being
12 apparently uncontroversial. They are the statement of
13 Martin Smith with regard to some Channel 4 documents,
14 a statement from Mr Foley with regard to Mr Tomlinson's
15 answers to the question that was put to him and also
16 adducing toxicology reports on the Andanson suicide and
17 finally, a statement of Mr Gamblin.
18 MR HOUGH: I think they have been circulated and discussed.
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: The usual provisions apply.
20 I call Mr Sipahioglu.
21 MR GOKSIN SIPAHIOGLU (sworn)
22 (evidence via videolink)
23 Questions from MR HOUGH
24 MR HOUGH: I hope I am pronouncing this not too badly, but
25 is your name Goksin Sipahioglu?

1
1 A. Yes.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Can we call you Mr Sipa?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR HOUGH: My name is Jonathan Hough and I will ask you
5 questions first on behalf of the Coroner.
6 Now, I think you are or at least were head of
7 the Sipa Press Agency.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And I think that three of your photographers were
10 covering the Princess of Wales on the day of her fatal
11 crash, that is Mr Arsov, Mr Hounsfield and Mr Suu?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And I think that the French police and prosecutor
14 attended your offices on the day after the crash and you
15 gave them some information which Mme Coujard recorded;
16 is that right?
17 A. Well, I do not quite remember that.
18 Q. You have been quoted in a number of articles,
19 particularly around the time that the various paparazzi
20 were under investigation following the death of the
21 Princess. I think you spoke to the press a fair bit at
22 that time; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And I think you were also interviewed by the French
25 police in their investigations into the death of

2
1 James Andanson in May 2000, and the burglary of your
2 offices in June 2000.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And I think you also spoke to British police officers in
5 January 2006, although you did not give them a formal
6 statement.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. You think so, but you don't remember?
9 A. Really, I do not remember, because I gave so many
10 interviews.
11 Q. And I think you may remember that you appeared in a CBS
12 American programme called "Diana's Secrets" in 2004. Do
13 you recall that?
14 A. Yes, probably, yes.
15 Q. So, it is fair to say that you have given quite a number
16 of interviews to the media over time, you have spoken to
17 the British and French police. Have you given your
18 account to anybody else formally?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Have you ever received or are you expecting to receive
21 in future any payment for your account of events?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Thank you. Now, dealing with some background matters,
24 you I think are the founder of the Sipa Agency which
25 certainly was a major agency for press photographers?

3
1 A. Yes. Thank you.
2 Q. And I think that your agents in England in 1997 were
3 called Rex Features; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. I think you worked through photographers whom you
6 employed and also through freelance photographers?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And I think like other agencies, you had photographers
9 in the South of France in the summer of 1997?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can I now turn to the photographers you had in Paris on
12 the weekend of 30th and 31st August 1997.
13 You have agreed that they were Mr Arsov,
14 Mr Hounsfield and Mr Suu.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you have any other photographers, either your
17 employees or working freelance for you in Paris on that
18 weekend, that you can remember?
19 A. Really, I do not remember. You can find the credit of
20 the photographer in the States but I do not remember
21 which one was freelance other than these three.
22 Q. After that night, did you have a chance to discuss with
23 the photographers their experiences on that night and
24 immediately afterwards?
25 A. With Nikola, you know, he was arrested so I spoke with

4
1 him when he was free.
2 Q. That is Mr Arsov?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can I now turn to the question of when you first heard
5 that the Princess was in Paris. We have heard, or
6 rather we will hear statements read from those three
7 photographers to suggest that you became aware that
8 the Princess was going to be in Paris on the Saturday,
9 30th August. Can you now remember when you first became
10 aware that she was coming to Paris?
11 A. You know with British newspapers, they called us.
12 Q. British newspapers called you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you remember if that was on the Saturday or any
15 preceding days?
16 A. No, no. It was Saturday. I was in the office, as
17 always I am in the office Saturday and Sunday.
18 Q. Can you remember at what time of day you heard from
19 these British newspapers?
20 A. Not really, not really, not really. It must be -- I do
21 not know.
22 Q. The evidence given in statement form by the three
23 photographers was that it was in the late afternoon,
24 they have given various times between 4 and 6 o'clock,
25 that you heard that the Princess was in Paris. Could

5
1 that be right, or are you not sure?
2 A. If they said so, it is possible. Yes.
3 Q. I think that you called Mr Suu to ask him to cover this
4 event but he was without a motorcyclist so you arranged
5 for Mr Tomic to ride for him; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I am going to discuss with you the accounts that
8 the photographers have given to see if you can agree or
9 disagree with those accounts on the basis of what they
10 said to you.
11 Now, we know from closed circuit television evidence
12 that all three of your photographers were waiting
13 outside the front of the Ritz when the Princess and
14 Dodi Al Fayed left from the rear?
15 A. Yes, we did not have any photographers on the other
16 side.
17 Q. All those three photographers have said in statements
18 that they initially followed the decoy cars from
19 the front; is that your understanding of what they said
20 to you?
21 A. That said what has happened.
22 Q. Sorry, I did not understand that answer.
23 A. I did not understand also your question.
24 Q. Let me ask it again then.
25 A. Yes.

6
1 Q. The three photographers have said to the French police
2 that they followed the decoy cars initially. Is that an
3 account any of them gave to you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, Mr Hounsfield and Mr Suu told the French police
6 that they went to the apartment, Rue Arsene Houssaye,
7 and were told about the collision about half an hour
8 after their arrival there and that they then went to
9 the Alma Tunnel, arriving after the emergency services.
10 Again, does that accord with what you were told?
11 A. Yes, I mean I was there after, you know. I saw them
12 outside.
13 Q. Okay. Let's deal with that now. Were you in the office
14 throughout the whole of that night, or did you come in
15 during the night?
16 A. No, I came during the night because they --
17 Q. The nightwatchman?
18 A. Yes, he called me at home. I was in bed but I went
19 right away to --
20 Q. Did he tell you about the crash that had happened?
21 A. Yes, yes. A crash and also he said that Nikola, he was
22 arrested so I went right away. I took my car and I went
23 there, I left my car near the Alma.
24 Q. We left have a telephone record of a Sipa-registered
25 mobile phone making a telephone call to the Sipa offices

7
1 at 1 o'clock in the morning. Were you there when that
2 call was made or can you not now remember in?
3 A. I cannot remember -- 1 o'clock, I should be in the Alma.
4 I left very late the Alma, once Diana went to
5 the hospital, so it takes hours, two hours, three hours,
6 I do not know, when they bring her to the hospital.
7 Q. You get into the office. How long did you stay in
8 the office until you left?
9 A. I stayed in the office all night and all day. I did not
10 leave the office after.
11 Q. When you got to the office, Mr Arsov had already been
12 arrested, we know that he had been arrested at twenty to
13 one. While you were in the office, did your other two
14 photographers come and see you?
15 A. Probably, but really, I do not know when they came.
16 I saw them in the Alma, but after I remember what time
17 they come to the office.
18 Q. This is right, while Mr Arsov was arrested in
19 the tunnel, the other two were not?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Is this right: the other two were able to get some
22 photographs to you, but those photographs were of
23 the crash scene after the emergency services had
24 arrived?
25 A. Yes.

8
1 Q. Now, is this right: on the day after the collision, you
2 provided some photographs at least to the French police?
3 A. Probably, I do not remember really. But if they come
4 and they asked, probably we give them.
5 Q. I think it follows naturally from the evidence that you
6 have given that none of your photographers took any
7 photographs of the Mercedes from the time it left
8 the rear of the Ritz until it had the crash?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Now, the French and British police have never recovered
11 any photographs taken by anybody showing the Mercedes
12 after it left Rue Cambon and before the crash and no
13 other witness we have heard from has admitted to seeing
14 any such photographs. Have you ever seen any such
15 photographs?
16 A. No. I did not see them, no.
17 Q. Have you ever been told by anybody else that they have
18 seen such photographs?
19 A. Not really, no.
20 Q. Can I move on to another topic; James Andanson?
21 I think you knew James Andanson before August 1997.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And I think that you also know that he resigned from
24 the Sygma agency and we know that that happened on
25 5th September 1997.

9
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And in his resignation letter, he said that he was
3 joining your agency.
4 (Link broken)
5 A. You get us?
6 Q. Yes, I am sorry about that. The gremlin struck.
7 Mr Sipa, we were talking about James Andanson and
8 said that he had written a resignation letter on
9 5th September saying that he was joining your agency.
10 Is it fair for us to assume that he had been in
11 discussions with you and you had agreed to take him
12 before that time?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. We had also seen an expenses claim with Sipa logos on it
15 relating to an assignment that James Andanson at least
16 claimed to have done, photographing Gilbert Becaud on
17 Sunday 31st August 1997?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Were you aware whether he did that assignment for Sipa?
20 A. When he did this? I did not understand the date.
21 (Question translated)
22 I do not remember if he was working for us at that
23 time. I do not remember.
24 Q. Mrs Andanson has given evidence that she actually
25 obtained photographs taken at this assignment from Sipa

10
1 in 2006. Are you aware that she got those photographs
2 from your agency?
3 A. You know probably, if he get the money from us, he
4 brought this feature, but I think he brought after,
5 after when he came to Sipa. I do not remember, but you
6 can find it in the sale reports, our sale reports.
7 Q. Can I now move on to Mr Andanson's death. I think you
8 know that Mr Andanson died on 5th May 2000.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. We have heard of the circumstances and I think he was
11 working for your agency at that time?
12 A. Yes. I saw him the day before.
13 Q. On the day of his death, did you receive a note from
14 Mr Andanson?
15 A. Yes, you know, I receive a letter saying that since
16 today, we have to send the sale reports to his wife.
17 Q. Is that salary reports you said?
18 A. Yes, sale reports/salary reports. We say sale reports.
19 Q. Sale reports, thank you. And also cheques?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, the police investigating Mr Andanson's death have
22 recorded you as saying that you had no doubt that his
23 death was a suicide. Did you tell them that?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Why did you believe that his death was a suicide?

11
1 A. Because you know, he was always saying to his friends,
2 photographers if something happened in his private life,
3 probably he will suicide with gasoline in his car and
4 also we know that when he left his house, he left
5 everything, his -- all his camera, wallet, computer,
6 everything he left. He got only his credit card and he
7 left the house and also, you know, a couple of weeks
8 ago, a couple of days ago, I don't remember, he went to
9 do a story on a political man, Bove, and he went there
10 in this forest and he bought gasoline and then he
11 suicided there.
12 Q. When you saw him on the day before his death, what was
13 his mood?
14 A. His mood, I was in a very bad mood and he said: don't be
15 worried, Goksin, it will be okay.
16 Q. Other than that, can you remember whether he seemed
17 depressed or happy?
18 A. No, really, I was depressed and he was not depressed.
19 Q. Okay. Can you move on to a new topic, which is
20 the burglary of your premises in June of 2000.
21 We will hear about that in more detail from
22 the investigating officer, so I will ask just a few
23 questions.
24 Were you aware that your premises were raided that
25 night by a number of men?

12
1 A. I was not in Paris. I was in Turkey and they called me
2 from the office, what has happened.
3 Q. Did they tell you that one of your security guards had
4 been injured --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- and that he and another employee had been held
7 hostage?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now we will hear this from the investigating officer but
10 can I show you something on screen in Paris. It is
11 [INQ0053605].
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I am just going to show you something on screen. Sorry,
14 this will just take a second.
15 Is a document headed, "Sipa Press", "Vol du
16 16/06/2000", so theft on 16th June 2000, and then a list
17 of computer equipment.
18 Have you ever seen this before?
19 A. Not really, but I know that they took our computers and
20 some other things, yes.
21 Q. This gives a total of around 540,000 French Francs worth
22 of computer equipment stolen. Does that accord with
23 what you remember of what was stolen?
24 A. You have the document. I mean, you see better than me
25 because I did not -- this probably the police have done

13
1 this list so I do not remember which one, but I know
2 that it was some equipment of the computer and some
3 telephones and so small things.
4 Q. I think in addition to the theft of the computer and
5 photographic equipment as well, were cabinets broken
6 into that contained photographs and other documents?
7 A. Not really, no. They come -- even in my office and they
8 did not took anything, just they opened some drawers,
9 they opened some drawers and even if it was -- only one
10 was opened. I think they come just looking for
11 something but it was not really -- they were not looking
12 for something I believe in my office.
13 Q. Are you aware that the police suspected a number of
14 professional criminals of this theft?
15 A. Yes, yes because I was told by our lawyers that they
16 were professional. Yes.
17 Q. But are you aware that in fact no charges were pressed
18 in the end?
19 A. Unfortunately, yes.
20 Q. Now, the officers investigating the death of Mr Andanson
21 I think took a statement from you; is that right?
22 A. Yes a couple of times, yes.
23 Q. I am being told that you might have that statement in
24 Paris. It is a document with D120 in the right-hand
25 corner.

14
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you have that statement with you, Mr Sipahioglu?
3 A. One second, please.
4 THE INTERPRETER: D120?
5 MR HOUGH: Yes, in the top right-hand corner, D120,
6 otherwise we can show it on the screen.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we have it.
8 MR HOUGH: Have you located that now?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. Could you turn to the second page please?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you see the last question, which begins "Quelle
13 relation existe... "?
14 A. Yes, it is no relation.
15 Q. For the benefit of the jury, I am going to indicate what
16 the question and answer were. The French police have
17 recorded them asking you whether there was any
18 connection between James Andanson and the theft in
19 June 2000, the burglary in June 2000, and it records you
20 as saying that there was not any and that that affair
21 had nothing to do with James Andanson. You then talked
22 about the theft and you are then recorded as saying that
23 Mr Andanson's office, the office that he occupied, was
24 not raided.
25 Is that an accurate record of what you said to

15
1 the French police?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. Is this right: it is your view that the burglary of your
4 premises had nothing to do with James Andanson?
5 A. Absolutely, yes.
6 Q. And is it also your evidence that the office which he
7 occupied was not raided by the burglars?
8 A. No -- yes.
9 MR HOUGH: Those are my questions. You may be asked
10 questions by others.
11 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield?
12 Questions from MR MANSFIELD
13 MR MANSFIELD: Good morning, my name is Michael Mansfield
14 and I represent Mohamed Al Fayed and I have some
15 questions.
16 I apologise for the delay in time.
17 Now, firstly, when James Andanson transferred to
18 your agency, did he use the agency to store his
19 photographic material and photographs?
20 A. You know, he was working before with Sygma so
21 everything -- all his archive was with Sygma. He did
22 not bring these pictures to us. We just get day by day
23 the story and we put in our archive.
24 Q. Sorry, I am sure he had an archive at Sygma, but when he
25 transferred to Sipa --

16
1 A. No, he did not transfer his archive to Sipa.
2 The archive stayed in the Sygma. He was getting
3 the money for that, and very good money for these
4 pictures, from Sygma.
5 Q. Did he transfer officially actually on 31st August
6 itself to Sipa?
7 A. Yes, I do not remember, but we have contract with him
8 and also you could see the story which he did for Sipa
9 in our sale reports or his sale reports. Yes.
10 Q. He had an office at Sipa after that. Where was
11 the office in the premises, please?
12 A. He was sharing a room with our -- one of our salesman
13 which he knew him from Sygma.
14 Q. As we are going to hear some evidence, please, first of
15 all, who was the salesman he shared a room with? Do you
16 remember?
17 A. Christian, but the name, I do not remember. But the
18 Christian name is Christian.
19 Q. Can you tell us where in the premises that room was,
20 the second or the third floor?
21 A. Our offices was in the -- first floor is not ours.
22 Second floor; we had second floor and third floor.
23 Q. I am sorry to be particular, it is a long time ago --
24 A. Please, yes.
25 Q. Which room on which floor was occupied by

17
1 James Andanson?
2 A. He was in the second floor and a small room on the left
3 side where there are sales people, they had their rooms.
4 Q. Now, did he keep materials belonging to him in that
5 room?
6 A. He was, you know, he had his computer and when he was
7 going, he was taking his computer with him.
8 Q. Beside the computer, did he have anything else in that
9 room?
10 A. No. I probably -- I do not know, he was leaving --
11 I never look but I do not believe that he was leaving
12 his camera over there.
13 Q. I am less interested in the camera than in photographs
14 that he may have had. Do you know whether he kept
15 photographs in one form or another in the room?
16 A. I do not know.
17 Q. You don't know?
18 A. But I do not think so.
19 Q. I want to be careful about this: do you know whether he
20 kept photographs in that room?
21 A. No. I do not know.
22 Q. Do you know that according to the police, ten office
23 doors had been broken down in your offices; did you know
24 that?
25 A. My office? Yes.

18
1 Q. You did know that. Now, was the door to the room that
2 Andanson used broken down? (Question translated)
3 A. No. It was far away. My office was a big office, very
4 big, 100 square metres, and he was in the small room of
5 50 -- I do not know how many -- feet away.
6 Q. I am sorry, I have to ask the question again. Do you
7 know whether the door to the room used by Andanson was
8 broken down?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You don't know?
11 A. It was not broken.
12 Q. When did you go to visit the premises after
13 the burglary?
14 A. I was not in Paris. I was in Turkey. I came two days
15 later.
16 Q. The police indicate beside ten office doors being broken
17 down, photographs that had been in a cupboard or cabinet
18 had been taken. Can you help about that?
19 A. No. I do not know, we don't know which photographer
20 they took it, but we were presumably thinking what they
21 were looking for.
22 Q. Is there any way of knowing, after the burglary, exactly
23 what they did take?
24 A. Who? The cambrioleurs, I don't know what they said.
25 You can find out the answers in the police report.

19
1 Q. That is the problem, we cannot find out from the records
2 what photographs were taken.
3 Now, did anyone in your agency at the time make
4 a list of what photographs were taken?
5 A. Really, I -- I do not think that they took photographs,
6 any photographs. I do not think so. Even if
7 the photographs which they were looking -- we think that
8 they were looking for pictures of Mr Arthur and his
9 girlfriend, they did not find it. It was in the office
10 of Mr Metair(?) but they did not find it. They were
11 there, the negatives. They were there and they did not
12 took it.
13 Q. I am merely asking about what photographs were taken, if
14 anybody managed in your agency to identify a list of
15 the photographs that were taken?
16 A. No, sir, nobody did so, because we don't think that they
17 took any negatives.
18 Q. If they did not take any archive relating to
19 James Andanson, have you ever seen any archive
20 photographs belonging to him?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you know Frederic Dard before he died?
23 A. No. I do not know him.
24 Q. Did you know that James Andanson was taking photographs
25 of this gentleman, a novelist in France, and his family?

20
1 A. I do not remember all the stories which Andanson he was
2 doing, because he had a lot of production, a lot of
3 production and I do not remember what he was doing all
4 the time. I do not remember.
5 Q. Did he ever tell you --
6 A. But you can find this list in his production list.
7 Q. Did he tell you that he was working on a book or an
8 article, some written text, to do with the crash in
9 the tunnel?
10 A. No. He never told me.
11 Q. Did he ever tell you that in fact he had photographs of
12 the crash in the tunnel?
13 A. No. Absolutely no.
14 Q. He was very secretive about what he did, wasn't he?
15 A. But he was not there.
16 Q. I am sorry, that is not the question. I appreciate you
17 may say that. But the question was this: he was very
18 secretive about what he did, wasn't he?
19 A. What he did when?
20 Q. The various projects that he had, he was secretive,
21 wasn't he?
22 A. I do not know. For me, he was giving a story before and
23 he was giving the captions and he was writing himself
24 the captions and I never heard that he was doing
25 something secretly. Never.

21
1 Q. Well, of course, if he was doing it secretly, you
2 wouldn't hear of it, would you?
3 A. Yes, yes. So you should not have asked this question to
4 me.
5 Q. That may be, but I wanted to know from you whether you
6 gathered that he was very secretive about his methods?
7 A. I do not know that he was secretive. I do not know.
8 Q. I want to move to the question of the day before he
9 died. You saw him?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did he tell you where he was going?
12 A. He was going to the story, but I do not remember which
13 story. I do not remember.
14 Q. Can you now remember, I appreciate it is a long time
15 ago, what the story was about?
16 A. I do not know.
17 Q. You don't know?
18 A. No. You see, every time -- I do not know what he is
19 doing. As I told you, he was doing many stories and
20 I am interested really in --
21 (Link broken)
22 MR MANSFIELD: I am sorry, can you now hear, is that all
23 right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You were just saying on the day before his death that he

22
1 had a number of things that he was doing that you did
2 not know about.
3 A. I never said so. I mean, you are misunderstanding me.
4 Q. What was he doing that day?
5 A. He was doing many stories for us. He was
6 the photographer who was getting more money in Paris
7 because he was working a lot for the people's stories.
8 He was doing interviews, features on the people and
9 well-known people and so. This is what I said about
10 that, and I do not ask him every time: what are you
11 doing today? But sometimes he was doing -- I know that
12 he was doing a very big story on the wine, with
13 the owner of the vines, so this, he told me, that he was
14 doing a very big storey on the vineyard.
15 Q. How long did you spend with him roughly: an hour, half
16 an hour?
17 A. No, it was a few minutes.
18 Q. Did he at that time give you any indication that he
19 himself was very disturbed in any way?
20 A. No. I said I was disturbed. I do not know why. And he
21 was very happy and smiling, and he said, "Don't be
22 worried, Goksin".
23 Q. Right. Just one more thing: you indicated that he
24 always said that if something happened to his wife, he
25 would take his life.

23
1 A. Not -- he never told me this, to me.
2 Q. That is what I wanted to ask you.
3 A. But he said to his friends.
4 Q. Well --
5 A. Years ago.
6 Q. Years ago? When did you first discover that he had said
7 that to his friends, but not to you? I am sorry to ask
8 you that particular question.
9 Can I make it simpler: did you learn that after
10 the death or before the death?
11 A. I knew this before. I knew this before.
12 Q. Right. Now, which friends were telling you this before?
13 A. Oh, you know, a couple of photographers. I do not
14 really remember their names, but if you -- you could
15 check that, I do not know.
16 Q. You don't know?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Well, roughly how long before the death were these two
19 photographers telling you that?
20 A. Oh many years ago, many years ago. Even before he came
21 to Sipa.
22 MR MANSFIELD: Thank you very much.
23 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Keen? Mr Croxford?
24 Questions from MR CROXFORD
25 MR CROXFORD: Just one matter if I may, sir.

24
1 Mr Sipa, my name is Croxford. I am acting for
2 the Ritz Hotel.
3 You told Mr Hough, who first asked you questions,
4 that you have never seen any photographs taken on the
5 journey between the Rue Cambon and the site of the
6 crash, but you were then asked a question --
7 A. No, I am sorry. I am sorry. I saw the pictures when he
8 was leaving the hotel with the Lady Diana. These I saw,
9 but after I did not see any pictures and during/before
10 the crash.
11 Q. You then were asked the question whether or not you had
12 been told by anybody else that they had seen such
13 photographs and the answer that you gave was: "Not
14 really, no".
15 I just want to ask you about that perhaps enigmatic
16 response.
17 Have you ever heard in the trade some rumour or
18 story that there are photographs in existence showing at
19 least some part of the journey between the back of Ritz
20 and the crash scene at the Alma Tunnel?
21 A. Probably, but I did not see. It was not published.
22 MR CROXFORD: Thank you very much, Mr Sipa.
23 Questions from MR HORWELL
24 MR HORWELL: Mr Sipa, my name is Richard Horwell and
25 I appear on behalf of the Chief of London Police.

25
1 I have a very few questions to ask you.
2 Mr Sipa, I do not know if you understand, but it is
3 suggested that Mr Andanson was working for British
4 Intelligence Services and took part in the murder of
5 Diana. Do you know that that is what is suggested?
6 A. Yes, there have been so many stories. I said it could
7 be a very good film in ten years' time.
8 Q. We cannot wait that long, I am afraid, Mr Sipa. I just
9 have these few questions to ask you, please.
10 Do you know of any evidence that Mr Andanson was in
11 Paris on the night of the crash?
12 A. No. I was always told that he was not there; he was in
13 Corsica, I believe.
14 Q. It is suggested that the burglars on 16th June 2000
15 invaded your premises because they were targeting
16 photographs belonging to James Andanson. Do you
17 understand?
18 A. Yes, but this was not true. Absolutely not true.
19 Q. I was going to ask you: do you know of any evidence to
20 indicate --
21 A. No, no.
22 Q. -- that the burglars were targeting his property?
23 A. No. The burglars, they were very idiot people. They
24 were bandits. To find out something like that they
25 should send some clever man, intelligent man, so I am

26
1 sure that it was not that. We told him, we are sure
2 that this burglar, it was just revenge on Mr Arthur.
3 Q. Revenge, did you say?
4 A. For Mr Arthur who was living in this -- he was a famous
5 television producer. He called to me saying: if you
6 publish my pictures, you will see what will happen. And
7 then we think that it was really about Arthur.
8 Q. Thank you. And finally this, Mr Sipa. Do you know of
9 any evidence to suggest that Mr Andanson's death was not
10 a suicide?
11 A. No. No. He made a suicide.
12 MR HORWELL: Thank you.
13 MR HOUGH: Nothing further from me. Thank you very much,
14 Mr Sipa.
15 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you, Mr Sipa. That is all
16 we require. We are very grateful to you for giving us
17 your time and for coming and giving your evidence by
18 video.
19 A. Thank you.
20 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: And now we have Mme Foucquet.
21 MR HOUGH: Could the witness please make the oath or
22 affirmation?
23 MADAME NATACHA FOUCQUET (affirmed)
24 (evidence via videolink, interpreted)
25 Questions from MR HOUGH

27
1 MR HOUGH: Is your name Natacha Foucquet?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In the year 2000, were you a captain in the Paris
4 police?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you lead the investigation into the burglary of the
7 Sipa press agency in June of 2000?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now I hope that recently you have been provided with
10 some documents taken from the dossier of that
11 investigation?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, if I may, I would like there to be two documents in
14 front of you while you are giving evidence. One is
15 entitled "Ordonnance de non-lieu".
16 THE INTERPRETER: We have found it.
17 MR HOUGH: Thank you. The second one is a document
18 beginning with the number D3/5 which has the words "Le
19 premier etage" on the first page.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
21 MR HOUGH: If Mme Foucquet can have those two documents in
22 front of her and Mme Foucquet, I will take you to those
23 parts of the document that you need to comment on.
24 THE INTERPRETER: The witness would like to read them,
25 before.

28
1 MR HOUGH: I think that is an entirely reasonable request.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
3 MR HOUGH: I do not know whether we need to rise for five or
4 ten minutes.
5 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: How much is there to read?
6 MR HOUGH: About ten pages.
7 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We will take a break now.
8 MR HOUGH: We will break for 15 minutes so that you can read
9 the documents.
10 (10.28 am)
11 (A short break)
12 (10.45 am)
13 (Jury present)
14 MR HOUGH: Mme Foucquet, thank you for reading those
15 documents in that short space of time.
16 May I ask you some questions about your initial
17 investigations into the burglary and you might like to
18 have before you page 2 of the ordonnance de non-lieu.
19 For everybody's benefit here, this is a document in
20 which the court summarised the investigation and
21 concluded that the suspects were not to be pursued; is
22 that right?
23 A. Yes, that is right.
24 Q. Now, looking at page 2, is this right, the report
25 records that a man entered the premises of Sipa on

29
1 Boulevard Murat in Paris at half past midnight in
2 the early hours of 16th June?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And does it also record that he threatened a night
5 security guard with a gun and made him take him up to
6 the second floor, where Sipa's offices were?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And does it record that the intruder had a struggle with
9 the nightwatchman in which the nightwatchman was shot in
10 the foot?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Does it also record that at the sound of the shot, an
13 information technology technician came and the intruder
14 threatened him as well?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Does it then record that the intruder made both men lie
17 down and then called some accomplices with a mobile
18 phone?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And does it then record that between five and ten
21 minutes later, I think two men who were masked arrived?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I think it then records that those men demanded the keys
24 for the Sipa offices and the alarm codes, which
25 the nightwatchman gave?

30
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And I think it also records that the intruders took two
3 bank cards, credit cards from the technician and
4 demanded the PIN numbers from him?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And then I think a little later, the technician heard
7 a call being made from which he deduced that the cards
8 were being used?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And then does it record that the men left at about 3.30
11 in the morning, leaving the hostages bound and locked in
12 some toilets?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And is this right: from other documents that we have
15 seen, the police were alerted about 45 minutes after
16 the intruders had left?
17 A. I could not confirm that.
18 Q. But the information that we have just gone through on
19 the report, does that accord with your recollection of
20 your investigation?
21 A. Absolutely.
22 Q. I think during the burglary, two photographers who
23 worked for the agency just happened to come to
24 the offices to deliver some film at different times.
25 A. Yes.

31
1 Q. And is it right that they both saw a man who was thought
2 to be one of the intruders, probably the first intruder,
3 and that they both gave descriptions of him?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, can I now ask you to look at the other document
6 that we asked you to read? Is this a record of
7 the police arrival and search of the offices shortly
8 after the burglary had been committed?
9 A. It is the report that I drafted bearing in mind that
10 I was not the first one to be there, to get there.
11 Q. No, we understand that. But this is the first report
12 where there is detailed information about what was found
13 in each room; is that right?
14 A. Yes, that is right.
15 Q. I am not going to go through it room by room, you will
16 be relieved to know, but does it record what was found
17 in each room on the second and third floors, which is
18 where Sipa's offices were?
19 A. Yes, that is right.
20 Q. And does the report record that a number of the doors to
21 offices and other rooms were either broken or otherwise
22 opened?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Does it also record that a number of laptop computers
25 were missing?

32
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And does it record that they were identified as being
3 missing by the office manager who was showing you
4 around?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Does it also record that some cabinets and items of
7 furniture were found to be open?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Does it also record that on the third and fourth floors
10 were a number of archive rooms which appeared not to
11 have been searched?
12 A. Yes, absolutely.
13 Q. And is this right, that at least some of the rooms on
14 the second floor did not appear to have been rifled?
15 A. Yes, that is right.
16 Q. Now can I show you a document which I do not know if you
17 have it with you, but it has Sipa Press on the top. If
18 you don't have it, we can show it on the screen?
19 A. We have it.
20 Q. Now, perhaps we can show it on screen in any event for
21 those here.
22 That is very helpful. Is this a list of items taken
23 which was provided to you by the office manager of Sipa?
24 A. Yes. It is.
25 Q. And do we see that it includes quite a number of laptop

33
1 computers and some camera equipment?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And if we look right at the bottom of the page, do
4 we see that the total value of items is nearly 544,000
5 French Francs?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Other than these items, were you aware of other items
8 having been stolen?
9 A. No, nothing else but the credit cards of the IT
10 technician.
11 Q. The report, the ordonnance de non-lieu, reports that
12 the intruders left behind some firearm cartridges and
13 crowbars and other paraphernalia; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can I ask you now to look at the ordonnance de non-lieu
16 on page 3, please?
17 Looking at the first paragraph of that page, after
18 the burglary, did the police, your squad, obtain
19 information about mobile phones that were used in
20 the geographical area of the offices at the time of the
21 burglary?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And did you find that two phones belonging to someone
24 called Tony Postal had been used and one belonging to
25 someone called Farid Ladad?

34
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And did the magistrates record that Tony Postal said he
3 had might have lent his phone to someone called
4 Fabrice Sauzay, but Sauzay denied that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And was it also established that one of Tony Postal's
7 phones was used by his brother, Brice Postale?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So we have four men: Tony Postal, Brice Postal,
10 Farid Ladad and Fabrice Sauzay and did your
11 investigations focus on those four men?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Going down the page to the second paragraph, is it right
14 that Brice Postal was questioned in relation to another
15 armed robbery in July of 2000?
16 A. Yes, absolutely.
17 Q. And he claimed that he had been working in that burglary
18 with Fabrice Sauzay?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And going down to the fourth paragraph on the page, just
21 below the dots, did Farid Ladad explain his presence in
22 the area of the burglary by an elaborate story which in
23 fact involved Brice Postal?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And did investigations reveal that quite a number of

35
1 telephone calls had been made between those two men,
2 Brice Postal and Ladad during the period covered by
3 the burglary?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, were all four men put in identity parades but not
6 identified by the nightwatchman, the man injured?
7 A. Yes, it is true.
8 Q. And partly on the basis of that, was it decided that
9 there was not sufficient evidence to charge them?
10 A. Yes, partially for that, yes.
11 Q. But is this right, that there were quite a number of
12 contradictions between the accounts of those four men
13 about where they were, what they were doing and whether
14 they knew each other?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And is this right also, that all four men were known to
17 the police and two of them had previous convictions for
18 theft offences?
19 A. Well, they were unfavorably known by us. I do not know
20 whether they had been condemned before.
21 Q. You were the investigating officer. On the basis of
22 your investigations, did you conclude that this was
23 a burglary directed at financial gain and perpetrated by
24 professional criminals?
25 A. Yes, and no because in a number of rooms, there were

36
1 precious objects, expensive objects like Lalique vases
2 and they were not stolen.
3 Q. As a police officer, have you sometimes found that
4 burglars will target, say, computer equipment?
5 A. Yes, it is true.
6 Q. Now, were you aware that an attempt was made, according
7 to the dossier, to use the technician's credit cards
8 fraudulently in the month after the burglary?
9 A. I remember that one of the credit cards of the IT
10 technician had been used fraudulently, but I remember
11 a transaction that happened on the day, during the night
12 of the burglary.
13 Q. Now, in the dossier, we have a statement from the office
14 manager who said, on the day of the burglary, that
15 photographs of some celebrities were contained in some
16 of the cabinets broken into but he was not sure if any
17 were stolen. Do you recall him saying that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I think shortly after the burglary, you received some
20 information from Mr Sipahioglu's secretary to say that
21 the company had received anonymous telephone calls about
22 the burglary in the week after.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. But is this right: there is a statement in the dossier
25 from the office manager saying that he had not treated

37
1 those calls seriously because they had been made after
2 the burglary had been featured in the press?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And also, did the office manager tell you about a year
5 after the burglary that the agency had had a dispute
6 with a television producer called Arthur and that that
7 might have something to do with the burglary?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, one final matter to deal with; can I ask for
10 the statement of M Roucayrol? [INQ0051379]
11 I do not know if if this is a document that you have
12 in front of you. It is a document headed "Statement of
13 Mr Roucayrol". It is headed "Statement number D122".
14 Is this a report from another policeman who was
15 investigating the death of someone called
16 James Andanson?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And does that record that officer contacting you in
19 the course of his investigation; do you see your name in
20 the first paragraph?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Does that record you as saying that as far as you knew,
23 no material relating to James Andanson had been stolen
24 in the burglary?
25 A. Yes, that is right.

38
1 MR HOUGH: Thank you very much, those are my questions, you
2 will be asked questions by others.
3 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield?
4 Questions from MR MANSFIELD
5 MR MANSFIELD: Good morning, my name is Michael Mansfield.
6 I represent Mohamed Al Fayed.
7 I am sorry to ask you some detailed questions about
8 something that happened so long ago. Are you sure that
9 no property belonging to James Andanson was taken in
10 this burglary?
11 A. What is for sure is that I was not told that items or
12 photographs belonging to James Andanson had been stolen.
13 Q. Did any police officer then, during the investigation,
14 make a list of all the property taken and to whom
15 exactly it belonged?
16 A. No. It could not be done. That list could not be drawn
17 when I went there on the day of the burglary. It was
18 established at a later stage by a representative of the
19 Sipa Agency.
20 Q. Is that the list we have seen, perhaps you would kindly
21 look again, D25, Sipa Press list?
22 A. Yes, it is the fax that I received.
23 Q. Now I would like to you look very carefully at this list
24 again. None of the property is identified to anyone in
25 particular, except an item relating to James Andanson.

39
1 Could it be highlighted so that the jury may see it.
2 I think it is "petite valise" and then the name Andanson
3 and a valuation.
4 A. Yes, we can see it.
5 Q. When you told the police from Montpellier that nothing
6 belonging to Andanson was taken, you were wrong, weren't
7 you?
8 A. Well, apparently.
9 Q. You see, on this list, just underneath, we can see disks
10 were taken. You can see it four entries down, quite
11 a number were taken, disks. Do you see that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Disks that might store images were taken?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. No identification is placed against those, as to who
16 actually they belonged to. That is the first point.
17 There is no indication of who they belong to, is there,
18 on the list?
19 A. No, there is not.
20 Q. Still less is there any indication of what the images
21 might have been, if there were any, on those disks; is
22 that right?
23 A. Yes, that is right.
24 Q. Has any of this property ever been recovered, to your
25 knowledge?

40
1 A. Not as far as I know.
2 Q. And even if it had been recovered, you would not know
3 how to identify it by this list, would you?
4 A. No, that is right.
5 Q. So why did the police not make a proper list of
6 everything that Sipa says was taken, who it was taken
7 from, what it contained and serial numbers?
8 I am sorry, it is a long question.
9 A. Because it was impossible from a material/physical point
10 of view because the premises were vast and there were
11 many rooms and offices that had been broken into and
12 also cupboards were opened. So it was impossible for
13 even the technician, the technical director to say what
14 exactly had been taken from those different rooms and
15 offices. And people anyway never keep the serial number
16 of things.
17 Q. So, just looking at the list, you presumably now, and
18 even then, cannot help us as to where the item that is
19 specified to Andanson, the only name on the list, where
20 that came from in the premises?
21 A. No, it is impossible to say.
22 Q. And it is also impossible to say what other disks or
23 laptops were taken from the same vicinity as that item
24 relating to Andanson?
25 A. No, absolutely not.

41
1 Q. And now you presumably cannot help us as to how that
2 item was linked to Andanson?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Did the police at any time examine the premises
5 forensically, by which I mean scientifically, for
6 fingerprints, traces of blood, DNA, fibres, that kind of
7 thing?
8 A. Yes, I asked the special department to go to
9 the premises after I went there.
10 Q. Does it follow therefore that there was no positive
11 finding or what was the result? Can you help?
12 A. I know they took pictures of all the offices and rooms
13 but I could not tell you whether they found any relevant
14 traces, what was the result of their examination.
15 Q. There must have been a report about the examination,
16 mustn't there?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I put it simply: were any of the suspects' fingerprints
19 found anywhere on the premises?
20 A. I do not remember.
21 Q. You see, whoever was in the premises, they were for
22 quite a long time, weren't they? Possibly two to
23 three hours.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. They managed to deceive people who were coming to

42
1 the premises into believing everything was perfectly all
2 right, didn't they?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. This was a very professional burglary, wasn't it?
5 A. Well, in certain regards, yes, but not in all regards.
6 MR MANSFIELD: Thank you.
7 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Keen?
8 MR KEEN: I have no questions.
9 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Croxford?
10 MR CROXFORD: No questions, sir.
11 MR HORWELL: No thank you, sir.
12 MR HOUGH: Just a couple of matters to deal with.
13 Further questions from MR HOUGH
14 MR HOUGH: Could we have the list on screen again and could
15 you look at the property list? Can we look again at
16 the item that we were looking at with Mr Mansfield;
17 "Petite Valise Satellite Geolink"?
18 Geolink is a telecommunications company. Was that
19 a satellite phone?
20 A. I have no idea.
21 Q. Could you look further down the page to just before
22 the very bottom, "GSM Bosch Worldphone", is it right
23 that more than one telephone was taken in this burglary?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And have we seen that in fact both of these items and

43
1 certainly the petite valise Satellite Geolink were
2 valuable items; that one worth 15,000 francs?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You were asked whether this was a professional burglary.
5 We have heard that items -- cartridges and crowbars and
6 so on -- were left behind and that one of the hostages
7 was shot in the foot. Were those the kinds of regards
8 in which you were saying it was not a professional
9 burglary?
10 A. Yes, absolutely.
11 MR HOUGH: Thank you very much, and thank you for coming to
12 give evidence of something which happened quite a long
13 time ago.
14 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you very much,
15 Mme Foucquet. That is all we require from you. We are
16 very grateful to you for coming.
17 We can now close down the videolink. And we will
18 have a short break and resume with Mr Cole and Mr Klein
19 who are recalled to deal with a short matter.
20 MR HOUGH: I think Mr Klein first.
21 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you.
22 (11.30 am)
23 (A short break)
24 (11.35 am)
25 (Jury present)

44
1 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I recall Mr Klein.
2 MR FRANZ KLEIN (recalled)
3 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: You are still bound by the oath
4 that you took on the last occasion.
5 A. Yes.
6 Questions from MR HOUGH
7 MR HOUGH: I will not ask for your name. You know my name.
8 You know that I will ask you a few questions on behalf
9 of the Coroner.
10 Thank you very much for returning to give evidence
11 on some matters that have arisen since you gave
12 evidence. I will certainly limit my questions to what
13 has arisen since you gave your evidence.
14 First of all, dealing with the evidence of somebody
15 called Ben Murrell, Mr Murrell was a member of the
16 Al Fayed security staff based at the Villa Windsor, do
17 you remember him?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. He gave evidence on 23rd January and I am dealing with
20 pages 12 to 20 of the transcript for your note, sir and
21 I will take his evidence in stages to see how much truth
22 you say there is in it.
23 First of all, he has said that in a period between
24 two and four months after the crash -- so, the last few
25 months of 1997 or very early 1998 -- two American

45
1 journalists visited the Villa Windsor and he says that
2 you were involved in organising the visit. He has in
3 fact said that when the journalists arrived, you were
4 with them. First of all, can you remember any visit
5 being made to the Villa Windsor by the American
6 journalists in the whole year after the crash?
7 A. Definitely. I cannot remember or recall that specific
8 visit, but I have made -- oh, I went to the Villa
9 constantly before the tragedy and after and I went also
10 with journalists to the Villa. But I cannot remember
11 the two journalists, American journalists, and I must
12 say that M Murrell should have given the names. He is
13 the security man.
14 Q. But is it right that you showed a number of different
15 journalists on different occasions around the Villa in
16 the year after the crash?
17 A. I do not recall precisely.
18 Q. Would it have been reasonable for you to be involved in
19 arranging such a visit? I am certainly not suggesting
20 anything improper.
21 A. Definitely, yes.
22 Q. Now, Murrell has said that before he showed
23 the journalists around, or before he was expected to
24 show the journalists around, he spoke with you and
25 Mr Cole and discussed what he was going to say to

46
1 the journalists. Can you remember any conversation of
2 that kind?
3 A. I do not remember any at all.
4 Q. Do you remember on any occasion when journalists were
5 going around the Villa, you having a conversation with
6 both Michael Cole and with Ben Murrell?
7 A. No, not with Ben Murrell. With Michael Cole, yes,
8 before, but for other matters.
9 Q. Murrell has specifically said that he told both you and
10 Mr Cole that David Pinch, who you may recall was
11 Mr Al Fayed's personal bodyguard, one of his senior
12 bodyguards, had told him to tell the journalists a lie,
13 namely that an Italian designer, called Ardo Grossi, had
14 been with the Princess and Mr Dodi Al Fayed at the time
15 of their visit to the Villa on Saturday, 30th August.
16 Now, did he tell you that he had been asked or told
17 by anybody that he had been told to say that?
18 A. No. He did not.
19 Q. It also presumably follows that Mr Murrell's evidence
20 that you asked him what he was going to say is also
21 something that you disagree with?
22 A. No. Of course, I do disagree.
23 Q. Were you aware whether on this occasion or any other
24 occasion, Matin, who was one of the other staff showed
25 journalists around the villa?

47
1 A. Martin is the one who would have shown the guests or
2 the journalists around the villa and it is more or less
3 liberty's duty. I had no duty to show apart from
4 arranging a visit, but not to go around. I did not
5 the history. It was Matin.
6 Q. Is it your evidence that Matin would be the person
7 expected to do that kind of showing people around
8 the Villa?
9 A. Absolutely.
10 Q. So, summing everything up, you fundamentally disagree
11 with Mr Murrell about his account of these events?
12 A. I think that is very false and a wrong allegation
13 against me.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, dealing with somebody else who gave
15 evidence, this is Alain Willaumez. Now, he was
16 certainly employed at the Ritz in December of last year
17 as a barman and also back in 1997.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When you gave evidence, you were asked about your
20 account, this is for your note, sir, 29th November,
21 page 48 and page 121 to 123; you were asked about his
22 account of Henri Paul appearing drunk on the night of
23 the crash.
24 You responded, first of all, by saying that you had
25 seen the video footage and you disagreed with

48
1 the suggestion that Henri Paul appeared drunk on the
2 night and then you said this, and I am quoting:
3 "This Willaumez, he has in the file of this barman,
4 I do not know if I mentioned it to the police or not, in
5 the staff file of this barman, there was a conflict
6 a few months before between the barman and the security
7 services."
8 And then you confirmed that it was the security
9 services of the hotel. You then gave some more details
10 and said Mr Willaumez had received a letter, presumably
11 a warning of some kind, and had been punished with two
12 or three days off work with no pay. Do you recall
13 giving that evidence?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Mr Willaumez denied having any such dispute with
16 the security staff or having any warning or punishment.
17 First of all, do you still adhere to that account of
18 events, or do you think you might be wrong?
19 A. No, I am not.
20 Q. The Ritz, very kindly in response to a request, provided
21 the personnel file for Mr Willaumez and he approved it
22 being provided and it has been reviewed and I think it
23 is agreed by all the lawyers that it does not contain
24 any record of any such dispute or warning or punishment.
25 Can you give any explanation now as to why those things

49
1 might not have been recorded in the personnel file?
2 A. Yes. Sorry, when I have been asked at the time and
3 the file was sent over to here, I made an explanation.
4 In France, there is a law which is a labour law which
5 you have to apply, that when a new president is elected,
6 we call it an armistice, then you have to clear up all
7 the files of each employee with any disciplinary
8 actions.
9 So, if there is any employee who had been
10 reprimanded by a letter or a sanction after five or
11 seven years, this letter has to be taken out, for every
12 employee and we have 550 employees and this is a law and
13 you have to apply this. And if somebody find out that
14 we have not, there will be high legal action against
15 the president or the responsible of the company. That
16 is the law in France.
17 MR HOUGH: Thank you very much for that explanation. Those
18 are my questions. You may be asked questions by some
19 others.
20 MR MANSFIELD: No questions, thank you.
21 MR KEEN: No questions, sir.
22 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Croxford?
23 MR CROXFORD: I think I come last, don't I, sir?
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: So you do. Yes.
25 Questions from MR HORWELL

50
1 MR HORWELL: Mr Klein, the evidence of Mr Murrell was that
2 you, together with Mr Cole, I think it is putting it
3 more accurately rather than with, knew that he had been
4 asked to make something of Diana and Dodi's visit to
5 the Villa on the Saturday; make something of it that
6 simply was not true, namely that they were there for
7 a long time, and that they were discussing suitable
8 decorations together with an Italian designer and even
9 going so far as saying that they were discussing which
10 room the baby would be put in.
11 Now, that is what Mr Murrell has said that he was
12 asked to do in respect of what was a very
13 inconsequential visit to the Villa that Saturday.
14 A place that we have heard Diana regarded as a mausoleum
15 and not somewhere to live.
16 Now, Ben Murrell says that he was asked to
17 misrepresent the facts of that visit and you say that
18 that simply is not true.
19 A. By whom has he been asked?
20 Q. The evidence that he gave was that David Pinch had made
21 the request and that he had discussed this request with
22 you and Mr Cole. And that you effectively went along
23 with it and that you were keen that Mr Murrell should
24 tell these lies.
25 A. This is a lie. This is an allegation. How can you say

51
1 that I went along with something when I did not know
2 about it?
3 Q. That is what you say, Mr Klein.
4 A. Why, Mr Murrell, what he says is true and if I say
5 something, it is not true?
6 Q. Mr Klein, you understand, we have had it quite often in
7 the course of the last few months. One witness says one
8 thing, another says another thing and the jury decide
9 where the truth lies in this, Mr Klein.
10 A. I have to make my position.
11 Q. You see, not only have we had Mr Murrell, Mr Murrell's
12 wife has also misrepresented the evidence in relation to
13 this visit: she has said that the visit to the Villa
14 lasted two hours that Saturday. And it simply cannot
15 have done?
16 A. Sir, I was not even there, so how should I know?
17 Q. The visit lasted 28 minutes and there was not enough
18 time from their arrival in France to their arrival in
19 the Ritz for them to have been at the Villa for anything
20 like two hours.
21 Mr Al Fayed, when he gave evidence, accepted that he
22 might have said that the visit that Saturday lasted some
23 two hours. Something is trying to be made of their
24 visit to the Villa which simply is not true, Mr Klein.
25 And you can understand why, can you not?

52
1 A. No.
2 Q. The suggestion that is sought to be made in relation to
3 that visit was that this was a man and a woman planning
4 their future together to live at the Villa Windsor
5 together with their baby that they were expecting; that
6 is what Mr Murrell was being asked to say and it simply
7 was not true?
8 A. Then you have to ask the person who said that, not to
9 me. I was not even there.
10 I gave my account in my statement when I was here
11 the last time, that when Dodi spoke to me on the phone,
12 end of August, 28th and 29th August, when he requested
13 and asked me to look for a sort of villa or residence
14 near the Villa Windsor or if he could stay at the Villa
15 Windsor and I mentioned that the Villa Windsor was under
16 renovation.
17 Q. You see, there are other instances in the evidence that
18 the jury has heard in which the truth has been
19 disregarded and I will mention them to you.
20 We heard from Claude Roulet and he gave evidence
21 about the Repossi issue. And he told us that Gilles
22 Montrichard, he described him as Repossi's Director of
23 Communications, he said that Gilles Montrichard had
24 advised Repossi against making up stories about
25 the ring. None of this to do with you, yet, Mr Klein.

53
1 A. Thank you.
2 Q. I am simply telling you about the background.
3 Claude Roulet says that Gilles Montrichard was sacked as
4 a result of his telling Roulet to tell the truth about
5 the ring. Now, you know nothing of this?
6 A. Nothing at all.
7 Q. But Mr Roulet then says that he spoke to you about
8 the lies that Repossi was telling about the ring. And
9 that you said to Claude Roulet, "Shut up, it is not your
10 matter". That is the evidence that Mr Roulet gave?
11 A. I would not have said shut up to Mr Roulet, definitely
12 not. I know Mr Roulet since 1975 or 1977 and I do not
13 know anything about it. Not at all.
14 Q. The allegation being that the truth was to be
15 suppressed.
16 A. By whom?
17 Q. Any suggestion that Repossi was lying resulted in an
18 order by you to shut up and let's have no more of it?
19 A. It is unacceptable.
20 Q. You see, we have heard from Mr Willaumez, who has said
21 that you told him to stick to the story about Henri Paul
22 only having a fruit juice on that Saturday evening; in
23 other words, to tell a lie?
24 A. No, no, sir. It is not true. We were informed by
25 the security, by Kes Wingfield, on the Sunday that

54
1 Henri Paul had dinner at the bar, in Bar Vendome, and
2 that he had one or two grapefruit juice. Fine.
3 We found out only two days after when we checked with
4 our control service, when we asked for the tickets, that
5 it was written "Ricard". So, until Monday or Tuesday,
6 I did not even know that he had some alcohol.
7 Q. But Mr Willaumez has told us that you told him to stick
8 to the story about it being fruit juice. You say that
9 he is wrong?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. When you last gave evidence, you said that the motive
12 for Willaumez lying about this incident was this dispute
13 with security and you would find the evidence for it in
14 his staff file?
15 A. Yes, fine, but there is a law which we have to respect
16 and I say that now for the last two months. If you
17 don't respect the law and if you can make your
18 investigation in France, you will find out. At the
19 time, when you asked me in December, I did not thought
20 about it, that the files of the staff have to be cleaned
21 up, cleaned out, there is a law that you have to apply
22 to that and all disciplinary actions, letters would have
23 to be taken out.
24 Q. And you simply forgot about that when you last gave
25 evidence to us?

55
1 A. Definitely. It is a small matter --
2 Q. What your employees' staff files are a small matter?
3 A. I do not have 500 staff files in my head. I didn't need
4 to follow this because you have Human Resources
5 directors who execute the law and the disciplinary
6 actions if they have to be taken.
7 Q. On the topic of files at the Ritz, Mr Klein, did
8 Henri Paul have a medical file at the Ritz?
9 A. Of course. Every employee has a medical file.
10 Q. And where are they kept?
11 A. In the medical office of the Ritz.
12 Q. Did you have access?
13 A. I do not have any access, it is forbidden.
14 Q. Who does have access to the files?
15 A. The doctor for the staff, the labour doctor.
16 MR KEEN: Could I point out, sir, that the relevant file was
17 in fact, as my learned friend Mr Horwell knows, handed
18 over to the French police further to your own request
19 only a short time ago and one of the Metropolitan Police
20 officers --
21 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: No, the request was made a long
22 time ago.
23 MR KEEN: Well, a long time ago. One of the Metropolitan
24 Police Officers, a Sergeant Easton, who is one of your
25 coronial officers, has been directly involved in certain

56
1 exchanges regarding the file and access to it and,
2 indeed, we received a letter from Mr Horwell's
3 instructing solicitor only yesterday touching on this
4 point.
5 As I understand it, the file is in fact no longer
6 even with the Ritz. It is now with effectively
7 the French judicial authorities who are dealing with it
8 that is just to explain. Unless Mr Horwell is unaware
9 of that.
10 MR HORWELL: I am perfectly well aware of that, I am
11 obviously asking questions about 1997.
12 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
13 MR CROXFORD: Sir, I wonder if you would be good enough just
14 to allay any suspicion, the suggestion that the file was
15 asked for a long time ago, which of course I do not
16 dispute, no doubt you will also be happy to confirm to
17 the jury that in order to obtain access to the file,
18 it was not my client which caused delay. We had no
19 right to give it up. It was necessary under French law
20 that you should obtain an order from the court, which
21 you eventually did.
22 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes, which took a long time.
23 MR CROXFORD: So for the avoidance of doubt, since we are
24 apparently throwing mud, it was nothing to do with my
25 client.

57
1 MR HORWELL: I am not throwing mud at all, I am asking about
2 a medical file at the Ritz and whether Mr Klein had
3 access to it in 1997.
4 We have also heard from Trevor Rees, Mr Klein, in
5 which he told us about an incident in Paris when there
6 was a dispute as to whether he should be driven to
7 a meeting at the court -- I believe with Judge Stephan
8 but it does not matter with whom -- in a British Embassy
9 car or a Ritz car. Do you know about this?
10 A. Yes, very well.
11 Q. Because it was Mr Rees' evidence that you got involved.
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. Why did you get involved?
14 A. Because, okay, you should know the facts. When
15 Trevor Rees-Jones had to come back to Paris on 4th or
16 5th March 1998, Mr Al Fayed asked me to arrange
17 transportation for Trevor Rees-Jones, as he came over
18 with I think Kes Wingfield and other security people
19 from London, which I did. I arranged cars to pick him
20 up at the Eurostar and then drove him to the Villa
21 Windsor, et cetera, et cetera.
22 Suddenly, there was another incident, because that
23 was the chronicle orders. I had to go to the Villa
24 Windsor to see Trevor Rees-Jones on the 5th and handed
25 him over a letter. Unfortunately today, I cannot

58
1 remember very clearly what was the contents of
2 the letter, but I went to see him with a letter which
3 I think he should have signed or should have given to
4 him. When I gave him that letter, it took maybe two or
5 three minutes, Trevor Rees-Jones got furious.
6 He shouted at me. That is not the point. He got
7 very furious and he said, "What is this? I do not
8 accept that", and at the time, even I did ask Ben
9 Murrell not to leave the room because I know all
10 the tough things Trevor went through and I asked him to
11 stay with me. At the end, Trevor left and then Curtil,
12 Maitre Curtil called me, he called me first and asked me
13 that we should withdraw the cars that we had arranged
14 for Trevor Rees-Jones. We should take the car back and
15 he had other means, with the Embassy car. That was
16 the incident.
17 Q. I will take it stage by stage, Mr Klein. Mr Rees said
18 that you had telephoned his lawyer, Mr Curtil and
19 complained and said that Trevor Rees should not be seen
20 in a British Embassy car?
21 A. Complained? I did not complain. I mentioned to
22 Maitre Curtil that we had cars arranged and then he
23 could have told us that they were Embassy cars.
24 Q. Did you mind that Trevor Rees was going to be seen
25 arriving at court in a British Embassy car?

59
1 A. I could not care less, I am sorry sir.
2 Q. You could not care less?
3 A. No.
4 Q. The impression that Mr Rees gave evidence about was that
5 you wanted him to be in an Al Fayed car and didn't want
6 him to be seen having any connection to the British
7 Embassy?
8 A. There were no Al Fayed cars.
9 Q. Well, cars that the Ritz had access to?
10 A. Yes, but nothing to do with Mr Al Fayed.
11 Q. And he also told us about an incident at the Villa
12 Windsor when you tried to make him sign a letter.
13 A. I just mentioned before definitely I showed him
14 a letter. Now, I cannot remember if it was for
15 signature or to give to him, I cannot remember
16 the contents of that letter and he got furious, yes.
17 Q. Yes. And this is what he got furious about, Mr Klein.
18 This is the evidence that he gave. You wanted him to
19 sign a letter confirming that he did not want his French
20 lawyers to communicate with his lawyers in England?
21 A. Okay, I would like -- is the letter available? It would
22 be very nice to see that letter. If this letter was
23 such an importance at the time, so at the end of the day
24 if he communicates with the French lawyers or the UK
25 lawyers, that was not my business.

60
1 Okay? It would be very, very helpful to see that
2 letter.
3 Q. You see, this is an incident about which he said he got
4 furious and you accept that he got furious?
5 A. Yes, of course I accept.
6 Q. So what was in the letter?
7 A. I do not remember.
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: There must have been something
9 that made him furious.
10 A. Yes, definitely sir. I cannot remember what was in
11 the letter.
12 MR HORWELL: And the effect of his evidence is that you were
13 trying to interfere in Mr Rees' life, his situation;
14 communication between his lawyers in France and his
15 lawyers in England.
16 A. I must say now I do not recall who found Maitre Curtil
17 for Trevor Rees-Jones. That is maybe a question
18 I should answer at a later stage.
19 Q. He said he felt totally used by Al Fayed as a result of
20 this incident and that is why he was furious, no doubt
21 with you and no doubt with others?
22 A. No, I do not recall the contents of that letter.
23 Q. You see, I suggest you are not reluctant to get involved
24 in the affairs of other people if it can assist
25 Mr Al Fayed, Mr Klein?

61
1 A. Not at all. I am a free man and I say what I know and
2 I tell the truth. You asked me to come here today, and
3 I came today, and I say the truth, okay. Other people
4 don't say the truth. I am very shocked and I am
5 a president of a company and I am very shocked that the
6 Professor Lecomte and the French judicial experts, you
7 know, are not coming here to give evidence and the
8 reason is they give a code. The French law code is
9 694.4. There is a code which is under the secret act
10 and ordre public. For that reason, the French judicial
11 experts are not giving evidence, and those experts are
12 in this investigation since 1997. I am shocked myself.
13 I am shocked. Okay.
14 I do not criticise the questions you put to me but
15 I am very, very shocked that we are speaking here
16 about -- I have to come back and I come back with
17 pleasure to help. What of Mr Murrell who is sending
18 false -- who has sold false, false stories to
19 the newspaper and he got paid for it. I think that is
20 a disgrace.
21 Q. Mr Klein, in this courtroom --
22 A. No, I might say if I cannot speak up, you will tell me.
23 Q. You have your opportunity to speak up, is there anything
24 else you wish to say?
25 A. Yes, I know Mr Murrell, I know him for many, many years

62
1 when he was security man at the Villa Windsor. I went
2 to the Villa Windsor for the last 20 years nearly every
3 -- twice, three, four times every month. I know Mr Ben
4 Murrell and I am shocked the way he is speaking from far
5 away and making this kind of allegation. I always talk
6 the truth. I never try to suppress something. If other
7 people want to clean up their shirts, it is their job it
8 is not mine.
9 MR HORWELL: Mr Klein, in this courtroom, the Duke of
10 Edinburgh is accused of murder. I am simply accusing
11 you of interfering with the truth.
12 MR KEEN: Was that supposed to be a question or a speech,
13 sir, because my learned friend did not wait for an
14 answer.
15 Now, is he suggesting that somehow his allegations
16 can be made against Mr Klein without foundation, simply
17 because allegations have been made by others.
18 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I am not sure it is going to be
19 very profitable to get into --
20 MR CROXFORD: With respect, sir, this is the second time
21 I have risen. Mr Horwell seemed to have a second bite.
22 I am inevitably going to put the questions that
23 the Metropolitan Police are quite shy of.
24 Questions from MR CROXFORD
25 MR CROXFORD: Mr Klein, it is now being put to you that you

63
1 were involved in, first of all, suppressing evidence.
2 Is there any truth in that?
3 A. No truth at all.
4 Q. That you were involved in producing false or misleading
5 evidence; is there any truth in that?
6 A. Not at all.
7 Q. That you were involved in trying to interfere in some
8 way or ways with the disclosure of true evidence, is
9 that true?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Mr Horwell made a speech about Mrs Murrell giving
12 evidence and of course, the jury have had the benefit of
13 hearing from her, as they have from Mr Murrell.
14 You mentioned a few moments ago that the man Murrell
15 sold his story the jury have heard for £40,000 to
16 The Sun newspaper. First of all, did you know that?
17 A. Only after, I never see --
18 Q. Were you involved in suing him for his wrongful breach
19 of the terms of his employment in any way?
20 A. Not at all.
21 Q. Very well, I will not ask you any more.
22 Mr Horwell put to you that you in some way forgot
23 that Mr Willaumez's staff file was presidential amnesty
24 cleanup. Have you ever forgotten that staff files are
25 subject to presidential amnesty cleanups?

64
1 A. Yes, I let Human Resources do their job.
2 Q. Did you know that, at the time each president came into
3 office?
4 A. No, it is sometimes something you forget.
5 Q. But you something you understand that it is the ordinary
6 part of any business in France?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR CROXFORD: Sir, I am grateful for that. I think those
9 are all the questions I wanted to ask.
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Do you have anything more?
11 MR HOUGH: No thank you, sir.
12 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you very much, Mr Klein.
13 MR HOUGH: Mr Cole, very briefly.
14 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: You are still bound by the oath
15 from the previous occasion? Would you prefer to sit
16 down.
17 THE WITNESS: May I? Thank you.
18 MR MICHAEL COLE (recalled)
19 Questions from MR HOUGH
20 MR HOUGH: Mr Cole, I will just ask you questions about what
21 Mr Murrell said so that you have the opportunity to
22 respond to them. First of all, other than perhaps
23 seeing Mr Murrell over the videolink, have you ever met
24 him?
25 A. I do not know Mr Murrell. I did not know his name and

65
1 when I saw him on the videolink from Nigeria, I would
2 say I had never seen him before. I did not recognise
3 him.
4 Q. So obviously, can I take it from that, that you disagree
5 fundamentally with his account of having spoken with you
6 about the visit of the American journalists?
7 A. I have never had a conversation with Mr Murrell. If he
8 was on duty at the Windsor Villa at any time I had gone
9 in the past before the tragedy, I might have said hello
10 and goodbye and I hope I would have thanked him if he
11 had opened the gates. But I never knew and do not know
12 Mohamed's security people. It may surprise you to know
13 that I had never heard the names of Kes Wingfield or
14 Trevor Rees-Jones before the tragedy and I had never
15 spoken to them. It is a separate world, I do not get
16 involved with it. The people at the Windsor Villa were
17 always changing and I never knew them and I didn't know
18 Mr Murrell.
19 Q. Can you remember whether you were involved in organising
20 the visit of any American journalists?
21 A. I can tell you about that.
22 Mr Murrell said in his evidence which he first gave
23 and then when he came back that this alleged incident
24 happened two to perhaps four months after the tragedy.
25 I am able to say with certainty that I was at my

66
1 desk at Harrods for every single working day from
2 31st August until I went on Christmas leave on
3 23rd December, every single working day except 2nd and
4 3rd October when my wife and I flew to Vienna for our
5 daughter's wedding, which I invite you to believe was
6 not terribly easy to do at a time of that tragedy and
7 all of that in the background. That is what happened.
8 When I heard Mr Murrell, when he first appeared, he
9 didn't name me or couldn't remember who I was, but then
10 Mr Horwell read his police statement into the evidence
11 and then he said his memory had been jogged and he
12 remembered the name of Michael Cole.
13 For completeness, my Lord, and utter candour,
14 I checked my diaries and records and I found that I did
15 go to Paris before I retired, bearing in mind that
16 I retired on 28th February.
17 I went to Paris. I went abroad four times during
18 that January and February but twice I went to Paris.
19 I went to Paris on 19th January and I came back to
20 London on the 20th. I went to Paris on the
21 5th February, and I came back to London on 6th February
22 and then, on 8th, I went to New York for the sale at
23 Sotheby's of the content of the Windsor Villa and I only
24 mention that because it is relevant.
25 Now, the first time I went to Paris after the four

67
1 months, I did not go to the Windsor Villa but the second
2 time I did. I do not want to be too wordy but I have to
3 put this in context so that the jury understand: after
4 the tragedy, not very long after the tragedy, I was
5 approached by an American journalist called
6 Scott MacLeod.
7 Now, he was a staff writer for Time magazine and
8 actually he had been on the scene at the tunnel on the
9 night. He had been out with his wife and was caught up
10 in the traffic jam and he went there and started
11 reporting. He did a report with his colleague, Tom
12 Sancton, Thomas Sancton, and they had done their report
13 for the magazine and then, within a couple of weeks,
14 it was certainly in September, MacLeod rang me and said
15 that they were going to write a book, a definitive book
16 on the tragedy which indeed they did and I have a copy
17 of it here, it is called Death of a Princess published
18 in 1998 by Weidenfeld & Nicolson.
19 He said to me, MacLeod, "Will you help us". Now,
20 nobody had approached me about a book and I thought two
21 highly respectable American journalists from a very
22 prestigious magazine, I decided that I would cooperate
23 with it. It was the only book I ever cooperated with
24 and I think we heard a witness say there have been 83.
25 This was perhaps the first that was published.

68
1 The two of them, Sancton and MacLeod, both came to
2 London, I saw them at Harrods, I did not see them in my
3 office because the phone was ringing constantly. I went
4 to another office and I spent the large part of a day
5 with them. John Macnamara certainly joined the meeting
6 and we met them together and we met them separately and
7 they certainly interviewed Mohamed at that stage.
8 They subsequently telephoned me on several occasions
9 about facts but what they did say, at an early stage,
10 was could they go and see the Windsor Villa. Obviously
11 if they wanted to see what the Ritz was like, to write
12 how it was, they could walk in and have a drink or
13 a meal and understand what the Ritz was like but
14 obviously it was a private residence, they could not get
15 to the Windsor Villa.
16 I said: look, I don't know, I'm too busy, I do not
17 know if I am going to Paris, if I do go to Paris and
18 it is convenient, I will make arrangements to meet you
19 there and we will have a short visit.
20 So I went on 19th January. It was not convenient,
21 but I went on 5th February and stayed over on the 6th.
22 On the 6th -- I will not bore you with the details --
23 but in the morning I was filming with an American film
24 crew at their hotel which was near the Luxembourg
25 Gardens. I had lunch with them. It was a very lengthy

69
1 interview. Then I went back to the Ritz.
2 The Ritz provided me with a car. I was going to
3 the airport, I was not going by train and I thought
4 I will go out to the Windsor Villa and I had already
5 arranged with MacLeod and Sancton that they would come
6 out by prearrangement to meet me at the Windsor Villa.
7 By this time, Mr Hough, it was getting dark. It was
8 late afternoon or early evening. I arrived, I came in
9 the Ritz car. I went into the house. Primarily, why
10 I went is I was going to the sale in New York and
11 I actually wanted to see what the house looked like
12 because everything that was there had gone to the sale
13 and I was just curious because at one stage I had
14 responsibility for the archivist and for the curator and
15 I was involved with the house and its restoration. So
16 it was very strange for me to go quickly and see
17 everything gone.
18 I was also curious because Mohamed had had one of
19 the famous portraits of the Duchess which had hung over
20 the mantlepiece in the library, he had had it copied and
21 I was curious to see how good a copy it was. I had only
22 been at the house very shortly when Sancton and MacLeod
23 arrived. They came in a taxi. I went out onto the step
24 to meet them. I remember thinking I have never seen
25 a taxi drive in here before and I remember it was dark,

70
1 I remember the light of the taxi glowing.
2 The taxi waited, they came inside with me, I gave
3 them a quick tour of the house; it is not very big.
4 It is a shame in a way that perhaps the jury did not go
5 to visit it. They would understand it actually is not
6 a mausoleum, it is a really rather wonderful house and
7 anybody would like to live in it and General de Gaulle
8 did and so did the King of Morocco at one time.
9 I toured the house; it is six rooms, essentially.
10 We then sat in the library because it was one of the
11 only places where you could sit down, all the furniture
12 was gone. There was a built in seat at one end of the
13 library. We sat and we talked for about 10 or 15
14 minutes. I do not think they even made notes because
15 they had done the interview with me in London, but
16 we just discussed the progress of their book and then
17 we left.
18 I either preceded them out of the gate or my car
19 followed their taxi. I went out to Charles de Gaulle;
20 they went wherever they went. That is the beginning and
21 the middle and the end of it. If Mr Murrell was there,
22 I might have said hello and goodbye to him but I did not
23 know him and if he had opened the gates to us, I would
24 have said: thank you very much.
25 Q. A couple of very quick questions arising out of that

71
1 which I hope merit fairly quick answers.
2 A. I am sorry about that.
3 Q. No. You have spared me the trouble of asking questions
4 along the way.
5 A. He also said, Mr Hough -- no, you go ahead.
6 Q. I do not mean to stop you in lyrical flow, but when
7 the journalists were there, was Martine, the staff
8 member, involved in showing them around at all?
9 A. No, I did it and Mr Klein was not there. If I was out
10 there with visitors, and I often did take visitors
11 there, he would not come. There would be no need for
12 him to be there. I showed them around.
13 It is interesting -- I mean, I obviously have read
14 Mr Murrell's evidence and he talks about filming. Now,
15 there was no filming. These were two chaps writing
16 a book. And we sat and we talked. I do not know
17 whether, in the light of what has been said, you would
18 permit me to read -- there is only two sentences in here
19 which are about the Villa Windsor. They had obviously
20 other sources, but I was one of them. If I read what is
21 on page 130, it would give you an understanding of their
22 understanding of that visit with me.
23 Q. I am not going to stop you reading two sentences.
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Not the whole book though.
25 A. This is my personal copy, and I am going to donate it to

72
1 the court, if I may.
2 Q. We are enormously grateful.
3 A. Top of page 130:
4 "Henri Paul continued into Paris and delivered the
5 couple's baggage to Dodi's apartment near the
6 Arc de Triomphe where they were to spend the night
7 together. Paul and Wingfield then rendezvoused with the
8 Mercedes at the couple's first stop, the Windsor Villa,
9 in the Bois de Boulogne. Diana and Dodi, who had
10 visited the mansion in July, stayed only about 40
11 minutes on this occasion, just in time for a quick tour
12 of the future residence and the surrounding gardens."
13 Q. If you leave it there, we will collect it at the end of
14 your evidence.
15 A. It is page 130 at the top.
16 Q. Thank you very much. So, in summary, you fundamentally
17 disagree with Mr Murrell's account