7 February 2008 - Afternoon session
17 (1.45 pm)
18 (Proceedings delayed)
19 (1.50 pm)
20 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We have M Lauzun, do we?
21 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we do.
22 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We are just getting the jury back
23 into court.
24 (Jury present)
25 MR HILLIARD: If Mr Lauzun could either take an oath or
93
1 the affirmation.
2 MR JEAN-MICHEL LAUZUN (affirmed)
3 (Evidence via videolink, interpreted)
4 Questions from MR HILLIARD
5 MR HILLIARD: Is your name Jean-Michel Lauzun?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Mr Lauzun, I am going to ask you some questions first of
8 all on behalf of the Coroner and then you may be asked
9 questions on behalf of others after that.
10 Are you a police officer?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. On 4th May 2000, I think you were one of a number of
13 police officers who went to the scene of a burning car
14 which had the body of a Mr Andanson in it. Is that
15 right?
16 A. Yes, exactly.
17 Q. I think investigations were carried out by the police;
18 is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. For example, they established or you established that
21 it was Mr Andanson through DNA evidence; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. The conclusion at the end of the inquiry was that his
24 death had been suicide. Is that right?
25 A. Exactly.
94
1 Q. Is the procedure this: in France, all those
2 investigations that were carried out are kept in
3 a dossier?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. As far as your visit to the scene is concerned, I think
6 you completed a report, is this right, that related to
7 that?
8 A. Yes. That is right. I was the first judicial police
9 officer to be appointed to work on that case.
10 Q. Do you have a copy of your report there with you?
11 A. Yes, but it is not complete. Two pages are missing, but
12 I think I could remember it.
13 Q. All right. We will see how we get on.
14 I do not know if you can remember this, it is in
15 the dossier but not actually in your report, but on
16 4th May 2000, do you remember that -- the time recorded
17 was 9.34 in the evening -- there was a call to the fire
18 brigade from an infantry sergeant who had seen the fire
19 whilst he was on patrol. Do you remember that?
20 A. Yes, I can remember that.
21 Q. And because of that call by the infantry sergeant,
22 the police and the fire service attended the scene; is
23 that right?
24 A. Yes, the fire brigade got there and then the gendarme,
25 who discovered that there was a body in the car and
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1 called me and I got there afterwards.
2 Q. Right. Do you know what time it was that you got to
3 the scene?
4 A. About 11.00 pm.
5 Q. Your report says that when you got to the scene,
6 a number of firemen were present; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, and two gendarmes.
8 Q. Two gendarmes and a number of firemen.
9 A. Yes, five or six of them.
10 Q. The area that you had gone to was somewhere called
11 Loulette Forest; is that right?
12 A. Exactly.
13 Q. The report says this:
14 "Judging from the first information gathered, it
15 appears that a BMW-make vehicle parked in a wood out of
16 sight is burning."
17 A. Yes, exactly.
18 Q. Can you just help us as bit about how you get to the
19 place where the car was? Your report, on the second
20 page, which you may or may not have, talks about a gate
21 that you had to open to get to this area. Can you just
22 help us with the scene?
23 A. There is a road, and on the verge of that road there is
24 a gate that leads -- gives access to a field, and
25 I cannot remember whether it was open or closed when
96
1 I got there, but the fire brigade had already gone
2 through.
3 Q. Once you had gone through that gate, the burning car,
4 was it stilled parked on the road or had it been moved
5 off the road? Whereabouts was it?
6 A. No, the car was in the middle of the wood, maybe 300 to
7 400 metres away from the road.
8 Q. Anyway, your report says that the car was parked in
9 a wood out of sight and was burning and that in
10 the driver's seat there was a corpse.
11 A. Yes, as a matter of fact, yes.
12 Q. Your report says that the information was that it was
13 burning away slowly, the body. Correct?
14 A. Yes, when I arrived there, the corpse was burning as
15 well as the vehicle, but it was possible to distinguish
16 a body in the driver's seat.
17 Q. Your report notes that the firemen did not stop watering
18 the vehicle down. They carried on to prevent the body
19 from continuing to burn. Is that right?
20 A. Yes. Their solution was to keep on washing the vehicle
21 to extinguish the fire, but with not so much water as to
22 damage the body and not so much pressure as to damage
23 it.
24 Q. Your report then has a section which deals with measures
25 taken when the investigators arrived.
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1 A. Well, if you mean measures taken by me, what I did was
2 I froze the place; that is, I only gave access to
3 the firemen and I made sure that they only always used
4 the same path.
5 Q. Your report says also that a guard was placed at the
6 entry, by the gate, to ensure that only people who were
7 authorised came through; is that right?
8 A. Yes, exactly.
9 Q. Is this also right, that photographs were taken of the
10 vehicle at the time?
11 A. Yes, photographs were taken, but considering the fact
12 that there was a fire and it was dark and considering
13 the equipment we had at the time, we could not use them.
14 Q. Now your report says -- I do not know if this is
15 the page you have or not. It is the second page. Which
16 page do you have of three?
17 A. Only the first one.
18 Q. The translation says this, that a perimeter of 15 metres
19 around the vehicle was frozen. Is that right?
20 A. Yes, it was about 15 metres. We did not measure that
21 distance precisely, but it was a place where there were
22 not any trees, so it was maybe 2 or 3 metres inside
23 the area where there were trees.
24 Q. Then, if it is translated right, the report says this:
25 "No search for traces or clues in the vicinity was
98
1 made."
2 A. I cannot remember.
3 Q. Can we put the second page up on the screen?
4 THE INTERPRETER: The witness says that he has the document
5 in his case. If you want him to, he can take it.
6 MR HILLIARD: We are all right here. Can you see it says
7 here, "Aucune recherche de trace ou indice ..." You can
8 see it anyway. Is that right, that no search for traces
9 or clues in the vicinity was made?
10 A. Well, anyway, it was impossible to look for clues or
11 traces that night because it was totally dark.
12 Q. Absolutely. Your report says that it is drafted on
13 May 4th 2000. If we just stay on this topic,
14 afterwards, in daylight and in the hours that followed
15 once there was daylight, was a search of the area,
16 the immediate area, made then?
17 A. I could not tell you because I only took part in those
18 investigations that night, the 4th, and I was not
19 appointed in charge of that investigation afterwards.
20 Q. So did you have nothing more to do with it after that
21 night?
22 A. Well, somebody was appointed responsible for the
23 investigation, and I helped him, maybe participated in
24 a few witness hearings, but that is it. I was not
25 responsible for the investigation.
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1 Q. Your report, Mr Lauzun, goes on to say that you deal
2 with the vehicle itself. You say:
3 "It was totally burnt and we were unable to
4 determine what its original colour had been."
5 Is that right?
6 A. Yes, perfectly right, yes.
7 Q. Is this right, that the registration plates had also
8 burnt?
9 A. Yes, they were melted down. The only possibility that
10 we had to identify the car was part of a window with
11 a number on it that had not melted.
12 Q. Because your report says all the windows were missing.
13 A. Yes, they were, but we still recovered part of a window,
14 a small part, on which was engraved two letters,
15 I think, and four numbers. We could not see it at
16 night-time, but we saw it the next morning.
17 Q. Your report says:
18 "All the windows and the windshield are missing. We
19 are able to see that the front windshield and the side
20 windows were partially melted. A piece of the back seat
21 window is still hanging on the door."
22 A. Yes, it is possible if I wrote that down, but I cannot
23 remember today.
24 Q. It says:
25 "We note that there are engraved inscriptions ..."
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1 That is what you have been telling us about. You
2 give the letters and numbers. It goes on:
3 "As for the back windshield, it has hardly melted.
4 It is broken in the back trunk."
5 A. I cannot remember.
6 Q. From the inscription or engraving on the glass, was that
7 how you identified the vehicle?
8 A. Yes. It is the next morning that we could do that.
9 We called the BMW dealership so we could get the seal
10 number.
11 Q. And so it was, is this right, that you discovered
12 the registered keeper of the car was James Andanson?
13 A. No, actually the car was registered in the name of his
14 company. It was "JFK", I think, "Andanson"; not his
15 personal name.
16 Q. At any rate, you found out an address, is that right,
17 and went and saw his wife or some police officers did?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I do not know if you know, was it about 240 miles from
20 his home? Is that right?
21 A. I thought it was 400, but I do not know really. Bourges
22 and Millau, they are at least 400 kilometres.
23 Q. You note in your report that the "trap to the gas tank"
24 was open --
25 A. Yes.
101
1 Q. -- but you say:
2 "The stopper does not appear to have been opened."
3 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, what does not appear to have
4 been opened?
5 MR HILLIARD: "The stopper". Presumably the trap inside,
6 the screw cap, does not appear to have been opened.
7 A. I cannot remember now.
8 Q. Did you make contact with the Public Prosecutor?
9 A. Yes, that very evening, to inform him.
10 Q. Were you instructed to keep the scene frozen until
11 the forensic department had arrived?
12 A. Yes, exactly, for the forensic specialists and also
13 the technical investigators.
14 Q. We know that the next day Professor Baccino came to
15 the scene at quarter past five in the afternoon.
16 A. Yes, in the afternoon. I did not remember the time.
17 Q. Were you there when that happened?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. After that, is this right, the body was removed from
20 the car?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you help us at all with what time that was? Don't
23 worry if you cannot because we can look at the dossier
24 later. Do you know what time that was?
25 A. No.
102
1 MR HILLIARD: All right. Thank you very much.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield?
3 Questions from MR MANSFIELD
4 MR MANSFIELD: My name is Michael Mansfield. I represent
5 Mohamed Al Fayed. I appreciate it is a long time ago
6 and you do not have all the documents, so if you do not
7 know, obviously we will deal with it in another way.
8 Can I start with the removal of the body the next
9 day? You were there. Who did that? Who actually
10 removed the body?
11 A. There was Mr Baccino, a criminal investigation
12 technician from (indistinct), because we did not have
13 one in the vicinity, and a group of criminal
14 investigation technicians from Bordeaux who were there
15 as observers.
16 Q. Was the body packaged in parts and put into a box? How
17 was this done?
18 A. Well, it was put in a box, that is for sure. But how
19 and by whom, I could not tell you. It was not me; it
20 could have been Mr Baccino or the gendarme, but what
21 were the circumstances of that removal, I could not tell
22 you.
23 Q. Is it right that when you first saw the skeleton in
24 the seat the day before and you saw the skull the day
25 before, there was a well-defined oval hole in the left
103
1 temple?
2 A. Yes, I saw a hole. It was not oval, it was not of
3 a regular shape. It had a diameter of about 4 to
4 5 centimetres; on the left, yes. It was like a burst;
5 it was not regular.
6 Q. The following day, was that still obvious or can you not
7 remember?
8 A. No, not at all. I saw it when I first got there at
9 11.00 pm when the vehicle and the body were still
10 burning, but once the fire had been extinguished,
11 the skull was destroyed, most of it. You could not see
12 the hole anymore.
13 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you still about the following
14 day. Were you there at the scene the following day when
15 any investigation of the scene was made by
16 investigators?
17 A. Yes, I was there. There were different kinds of
18 investigations. They looked in the vehicle once the
19 skeleton had been removed and also there was a flight in
20 helicopter to try to see what was around. Yes, I was
21 there at all times.
22 Q. Can I ask you some questions? I appreciate you may not
23 know readily the answers. First of all, did anyone look
24 in the boot of the car?
25 A. Yes.
104
1 Q. Was there anything in the boot?
2 A. Well, I do not quite remember anything in particular.
3 Maybe the fact that it was a car with two seats only,
4 there were not any seats in the back -- there was
5 a board which had melted. But behind the driver's seat
6 we discovered a cigarette lighter. That is all I can
7 remember.
8 Q. I am asking particularly about in the boot. Did you
9 find, either in the car or in the vicinity of the car,
10 four, five or six 10-litre fuel containers?
11 A. No, none.
12 Q. Are you able to help about where the driver of the car
13 or the owner of the car, Mr Andanson, had obtained about
14 100 litres of fuel?
15 A. Well, I notice that I do not know the exact quantity of
16 fuel that Mr Andanson had bought, but the investigation
17 that was led conducted to the discovery of the fact that
18 Mr Andanson had bought 600 francs' worth of fuel at
19 a station nearby, a supermarket service station,
20 Geant Casino.
21 Q. The name of the petrol station was Geant Casino in
22 Millau, is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did anybody go to that petrol station soon after this
25 incident was discovered and ask any questions about
105
1 the purchase of the fuel of the person on duty?
2 A. It was done in the following days. I do not know
3 exactly how long after the event, but it was done within
4 a week. A gendarme went to the service station and
5 could establish that Mr Andanson had bought 600 francs'
6 worth of fuel. There was nothing else to buy there, so
7 it was only fuel.
8 Q. Yes, the question is very specific. The documents
9 we have indicate that someone concerned with the
10 administration of the garage confirmed that it was
11 purchased, but we do not have any statement from
12 a cashier, someone on duty at the garage who took
13 the payment. Now, was the person who took the payment
14 interviewed?
15 A. Well, I do not know whether you have the complete file.
16 If a cashier was questioned, then it must be in
17 the file.
18 Q. Well, I leave that for the moment. I appreciate you are
19 not responsible. You see, just so it is clear to you,
20 it would be important to establish how much petrol he
21 bought, what containers he might have bought to go with
22 it, who he was with, if he was with anybody. These are
23 all relevant questions, aren't they?
24 A. I cannot assure you that a cashier was heard. I was not
25 responsible once again for the investigation. But
106
1 I think I have seen somewhere that it was the case that
2 a cashier was heard.
3 Q. Well, I am sure we will have that followed through to
4 see if we can find who that was.
5 Now may I just ask you this general question? In
6 1997, in a French garage selling petrol, a petrol
7 station, was there any restriction on the amount of
8 petrol that you could buy in containers?
9 A. Well, not to my knowledge, and I think some people still
10 do that today.
11 Q. I just wanted to check.
12 Now, during daylight hours -- that is the next
13 day -- was there a search of the area around the car and
14 beyond, into the trees that are nearby and so forth?
15 Was there a search on that day?
16 A. It is likely, but I was not responsible so I did not
17 lead the search, if any was led.
18 Q. If a search is done in the vicinity, for example for
19 cartridge cases, weapons, containers, footprints,
20 whatever, who is responsible for that?
21 A. Well, it is the person in charge of the investigation.
22 I am sure this kind of search was made, but I was not
23 the head of the investigation so you should ask that
24 person.
25 Q. I am sorry to trouble you. Who was that person? Do you
107
1 remember or not?
2 A. Well, there were two people concerned by the gas
3 recommission: Mr Cabonel, who is deceased since then,
4 and Mr Layrac, who is still a police officer in Millau.
5
6 Q. Would they keep a record in the dossier of when they do
7 the search and the area of the search and what they
8 find?
9 A. Yes, I think so.
10 Q. Now, the registration plates back and front of this car
11 were missing.
12 A. Yes, they were.
13 Q. I just want to ask you this: were the remnants of the
14 plates on the ground?
15 A. Yes, they had melted down.
16 Q. Could you see the remnants of the plates on the ground?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Once again, the following day, were all these things
19 collected up?
20 A. Well, once they had removed the corpse and the car had
21 been collected, I guess that everything that was around
22 the car was put in the car. I do not know whether those
23 things were placed under seal individually, but they
24 must have been at least put in the car.
25 MR MANSFIELD: I am going to reserve the other questions for
108
1 someone else.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you.
3 MR WEEKES: No, thank you, sir.
4 MR CROXFORD: May I clarify one thing, sir?
5 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
6 Questions from MR CROXFORD
7 MR CROXFORD: Are you able to help with this? On
8 10th May 2000, two of your colleagues -- I take them to
9 be colleagues, sir -- one of them by the name of
10 Gilbert Roucayrol and the other, Bernard Cabonel -- are
11 you familiar with those names?
12 A. Yes, Mr Cabonel was in charge of the investigation and
13 Mr Roucayrol participated in it.
14 Q. Very well. Do you remember that they went to Paris on
15 10th May looking for and they found a motorcycle which
16 had been used by Mr Andanson?
17 A. Yes. I think they found it in the courtyard of
18 the press agency.
19 Q. They found it in the courtyard of the Sipa press agency,
20 well remembered. Is that your recollection, sir?
21 A. Yes, I cannot remember which press agency it was;
22 something that again is in the file.
23 Q. Do you remember this? It was orangey-red in colour,
24 a BMW and first registered as long before as 1988.
25 A. I do not know.
109
1 MR CROXFORD: You don't know. I am not going to ask you how
2 many kilometres on the odometer therefore. Thank you
3 very much.
4 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Anyone else?
5 Mr Hilliard?
6 Further questions from MR HILLIARD
7 MR HILLIARD: Can you just help about this? The helicopter
8 flight, was that something that you were involved with?
9 A. Yes, I was in the helicopter.
10 Q. Was the point of that to follow the tyre tracks that had
11 been left?
12 A. Well, the idea was to get to know whether, in the field
13 or around the vehicle, there were other tracks.
14 Q. Because the tracks that there were, was the width of
15 them measured to see if they matched the BMW? Is that
16 right?
17 A. Yes, that is right.
18 Q. Then just about fuel, please: the car itself was
19 a diesel vehicle. Is that right?
20 A. I think so, yes.
21 Q. Did the investigation establish that an accelerant had
22 been used in the fire and that it was something called
23 "super carburant", which I think is like our 4-star,
24 I am told; is that right?
25 A. Yes, that is right.
110
1 Q. If you did not find any containers, and an accelerant
2 had been used, can you help us, what conclusion did
3 the investigation reach about what had happened to any
4 containers?
5 A. Well, maybe the containers were in plastic.
6 Q. And they had been destroyed in the fire?
7 A. Well --
8 MR MANSFIELD: I would ask to be clear about this because
9 I thought another witness was coming. There is nothing
10 in the French report to suggest that, that it was
11 considered by anyone, let alone that he knew.
12 Furthermore, the point, if it is going to be taken and
13 I certainly want to take it, is that the material that
14 was bought in the garage was in fact diesel. The car
15 runs on diesel. What was found in the footwell was not
16 diesel.
17 MR HILLIARD: We will hear that it was more diesel than
18 could have filled the tank, if had all been diesel.
19 MR MANSFIELD: Exactly, but it is petrol in the footwell.
20 MR HILLIARD: Just this: did your investigation consider
21 what might have happened to any containers? Was that
22 a pretty obvious thing to think about, Mr Lauzun?
23 A. I could not comment on their behalf.
24 MR HILLIARD: All right. Thank you very much indeed.
25 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you very much, Mr Lauzun.
111
1 That is all we require. We are grateful to you for
2 coming and for your time. That is the completion of the
3 evidence from Paris.
4 MR HILLIARD: From Paris, yes.
5 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: So we can close down
6 the videolink.
7 MR HILLIARD: As may have been evident, Mr Lauzun had
8 indicated that he was not prepared to answer questions
9 beyond what he had himself done, so with Mr Mansfield's
10 agreement -- and I am grateful to him -- and if it meets
11 with your approval, the proposal is that Detective
12 Sergeant Easton, who is here -- we all have the French
13 dossier -- he has been through it. We don't actually
14 have it physically here, but we have had access to it,
15 all of us --
16 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: He has the great advantage of
17 being fluent in French.
18 MR HILLIARD: He does, and he is just going to help us. It
19 may be that won't be the end of the road and we will
20 have to go back to the dossier again, but at least it
21 means that we have made progress on this topic.
22 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: As I think you are aware, I am
23 anxious not to spend too much time on satellite issues
24 because this is one death removed from the issues in
25 the case.
112
1 MR HILLIARD: But it just seemed to us, rather than lose
2 the afternoon --
3 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Absolutely. We had better break
4 off to let the organisation be made for the witness box.
5 Anyway, I think it is about time to have a short
6 break.
7 (2.46 pm)
8 (A short break)
9 (2.59 pm)
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Easton had better be sworn,
11 I think.
12 MR HILLIARD: Yes.
13 DC PHILIP EASTON (sworn)
14 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Please sit if you prefer. It
15 will probably be easier.
16 A. It might be with the documents, sir.
17 Questions from MR HILLIARD
18 MR HILLIARD: Are you Detective Sergeant Philip Easton?
19 A. I am, yes.
20 Q. Have you been an officer who has been attached to
21 Operation Paget?
22 A. I have, yes.
23 Q. Was one of the jobs that you performed to go through
24 the French dossier, you being a French speaker,
25 the Andanson investigation?
113
1 A. That is correct, yes.
2 Q. I think in fairness to you, you stepped in at very, very
3 short notice once it became plain that there was only so
4 far that we could go with Mr Lauzun.
5 A. That is correct and I will do my best.
6 Q. I know you will. You have a report there, I think,
7 which you have prepared, in which you have summarised
8 some of the documents in the dossier. Is that right?
9 A. Yes, that is correct.
10 Q. I think it is going to be too time-consuming at the
11 moment, with one exception, to keep going back to
12 the original documents. If we need to do that, what
13 we may have to do is store up the queries and you
14 perhaps go away and solve them in that way, all right,
15 if you can?
16 A. Certainly.
17 Q. The first thing is this: there are photographs, is this
18 right, of the vehicle in the dossier?
19 A. Yes, there are.
20 Q. What I am going to ask is -- we are not going to look at
21 all of them but just eight. I think the page should
22 start at [INQ0051332].
23 There are two to a page. Can we go back? That is 7
24 and 8. I just want to go back and back. There.
25 Goodness, they are rather better on this screen here.
114
1 We will have to do the best we can for the moment.
2 So, those are obviously two shots, 1 and 2, of
3 the outside of the vehicle. Is that right?
4 A. That is correct, yes.
5 Q. If we can just look at the next two, please, and
6 the next page.
7 Do you know what that is, what we are looking at?
8 A. It is difficult to remember, but I think there is
9 a photograph of the etching on the window from which
10 they managed to identify the vehicle and therefore trace
11 it back to Mr Andanson.
12 Q. If we can have the next page, please. Thank you. And
13 then -- thank you. Finally, do you know what we are
14 looking at there?
15 A. The last two photographs are photographs of the interior
16 of the vehicle, which clearly demonstrate, in my view,
17 the extent of the damage caused as a result of the fire.
18 Everything seems to have melted.
19 Q. Thank you very much. We can take those off now.
20 Those are the pictures that were taken of the
21 vehicle. Can you help with this? Was a search of the
22 vehicle and its contents carried out?
23 A. Yes, it was.
24 Q. We heard reference to a cigarette lighter and I think in
25 your report you will find this at D61. But that
115
1 explains -- and this is what your report says -- is this
2 right, that during the examination of the vehicle, there
3 was a car cigarette lighter or it says "cigar lighter",
4 but a car lighter at least, is that right, was found?
5 A. Yes, correct.
6 Q. And that was, I think, in the back of the vehicle; is
7 that right?
8 A. From memory, yes. But I mean if you prefer, I am more
9 than happy to translate D61, which details the other
10 items that were found in --
11 Q. I am going to come onto that. Do you have D61 in front
12 of you?
13 A. I have not, no, but I know it is on your system. I have
14 an INQ number.
15 Q. If I can deal with two things, and then we might look at
16 that to give ourselves an idea of the sort of search
17 that was carried out.
18 So the car lighter is in the back of the vehicle,
19 and then were the remains of a packet of Henri Winterman
20 cigars found in the front passenger footwell?
21 A. I believe so, yes.
22 Q. If we can get that for you. While that is coming,
23 I just want to ask you this. We heard about cartridge
24 cases mentioned earlier. Were any bullets or anything
25 like that found in the vehicle?
116
1 A. No. The INQ number is [INQ0051208]. I hope I have that
2 right.
3 Q. If you can just look at that and give us an idea of the
4 sort of things that were found.
5 A. You need to scroll down for me. In the vehicle there is
6 a meticulous search of the various parts that were not
7 initially searched at the scene. This is once
8 the vehicle has been brought back for further
9 examination. Under the driver's seat we can find parts
10 of -- this is where I am going to have problems trying
11 to remember my English -- belt braces --
12 Q. Trouser braces.
13 A. -- and an oval buckle. These have been exhibited as
14 well. Under the passenger seat we can find a metallic
15 box which appears closed, the contents being completely
16 burned. At the same spot we find two coins, 10 francs
17 and 2 francs.
18 At the level of the floor mat of the rear passenger
19 seat -- sorry, beg your pardon -- on the passenger side,
20 we discover an agglomerance of matter, including glass,
21 soldered together by the heat of the fire.
22 Whilst breaking up the different elements of this,
23 we discover a box of cigars, Henri Wintermans, which
24 we have already discussed, red in colour.
25 On the passenger seat, left-hand side, near the
117
1 belting system that did not appear to have been on, been
2 put in, we discover a dental apparatus, a bridge, and
3 some of the matter might be in gold.
4 Q. We heard yesterday from the professor about how those
5 items were taken because if it had been necessary, they
6 could have been used to identify.
7 The next one down is going to be the cigar lighter,
8 isn't it, and that will just confirm where that was
9 found. Can you help us with that?
10 A. Yes, certainly. 30 centimetres behind the driver's seat
11 and 35 centimetres going to the left of the vehicle in
12 a crevice formed by the bodywork of the vehicle in
13 the rear seat or area, we discover metallic pieces of
14 a cigar lighter for the vehicle. So a vehicle lighter,
15 because this vehicle appears to be a commercial-type
16 vehicle without a rear seat proper, but with a sort of
17 box in its place. It would appear that the cigar
18 lighter would have been put down on the -- that part of
19 the rear which would have been used to hide equipment or
20 baggage.
21 Q. I think that is probably going to be sufficient. It
22 gives us an idea of the sort of things that were found.
23 All right, thank you.
24 Then I am going on if it helps you to D63. Did
25 the investigation establish that Mr Andanson -- although
118
1 this area we have heard was 400 kilometres or so from
2 his home address, is it right that it was an area that
3 he had been to before?
4 A. Yes, we know both from his diary and I think from
5 financial records that he had been to the area before to
6 interview a gentleman by the name of Jose Bove back in
7 March of 2000, so he would have known the area.
8 Q. He had stayed in a hotel, I think, at that time; is that
9 right?
10 A. Yes. That is the Hotel Campanile, which in fact is
11 right next door to the petrol station that we have
12 already heard about today.
13 Q. So he had certainly been to the area before.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In the course of the investigation -- I am looking at
16 the bottom of the page, D68, and I am going to tie it up
17 with one other, D89; "D" standing for "document" --
18 there was a request made for the billing on his mobile
19 telephone?
20 A. That is correct, yes.
21 Q. What was received, I think, was information about
22 incoming and outgoing calls on his mobile telephone and
23 outgoing calls from the two landlines at his home
24 address. That is summarising a number of them, but is
25 that correct?
119
1 A. That is correct, sir.
2 Q. For you, over the page, document 69, we are now coming
3 to the petrol station, all right? What information did
4 the investigation uncover about the petrol station,
5 please?
6 A. From recollection, inquiries were made, financial
7 inquiries were made, to do with Mr Andanson, from which
8 they ascertained that money had been spent at a petrol
9 station.
10 Q. Just pausing. One of these documents, not this one,
11 tells us that he had used a card to pay.
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. So with a card -- you carry on.
14 A. He made a payment of 608 francs and 70 centimes at what
15 is called the Geant Casino petrol station in Millau.
16 Q. So that was on 4th May 2000, so the same day that --
17 A. Yes, at 3.36 pm.
18 Q. 3.36 in the afternoon at that petrol station.
19 Do the records show what was bought?
20 A. Not exactly. One of the investigating officers,
21 I believe it is Adjutant Chef Jacques Layrac, attended
22 the petrol station and spoke to a lady there, in charge
23 of the petrol station, who gave him a receipt for that
24 purchase. Even though it is next to a small
25 supermarket, the only items that can be purchased from
120
1 that petrol station are diesel fuel, leaded fuel, known
2 as "super carburant", and unleaded. All that could be
3 said was that he had purchased one or a combination of
4 these three.
5 Q. So whether he had bought 608 francs and 70 centimes'
6 worth of diesel, we don't know. Whether he bought some
7 diesel and something else, we don't know from that
8 record. Do I have it right?
9 A. We don't know from that record, but we do know from
10 the forensic examination of the burnt-out vehicle that
11 the accelerants used and found in the driver's vehicle
12 was super carburant, which would equate to British
13 4-star, as it was at the time.
14 Q. His vehicle, we have heard, was a diesel vehicle.
15 A. That is correct, yes, sir.
16 Q. Did the investigation establish that that vehicle had
17 a 60-litre tank?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. Was the exercise done to see whether he could have -- if
20 he had bought 608 francs' worth of diesel, would that
21 have been more than would have filled up his whole tank?
22 A. Yes. At the same time as attending the petrol station,
23 the investigating officer obtained prices per litre for
24 all different types of fuel, and if my calculations are
25 correct, had Mr Andanson purchased a full 60 litres of
121
1 diesel at that time, he could also have purchased
2 approximately 41 litres of 4-star, super carburant.
3 Q. In addition, were inquiries made, as perhaps you would
4 expect, about Mr Andanson himself?
5 A. Yes, they were.
6 Q. I am looking at D76. Was a statement taken from
7 somebody called Christian Maillard?
8 A. Yes, it was, and made on 10th May, and
9 Christian Maillard was from the Sipa Press.
10 Q. Does your summary say this?
11 "He had been a friend of Mr Andanson since 1988. He
12 shared an office with him. He explained that
13 Mr Andanson had been a founder of Sygma Press, but left
14 following a difference of opinion in August 1997."
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. "He mentioned that Mr Andanson had worries about his son
17 and he mentioned that, in 1996, Mr Andanson had told him
18 that he was thinking of committing suicide by creating
19 an explosion in his motor vehicle."
20 A. That is correct, sir, yes.
21 Q. To which, Mr Maillard, is this correct, told him not to
22 say such things?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And Mr Andanson said that he could do it?
25 A. Yes, that is correct.
122
1 Q. Another statement was taken on the same day from
2 somebody called Jean-Gabriel Barthelemy.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was he a photographer who had known Mr Andanson since
5 1972?
6 A. That is correct.
7 Q. Did that gentleman say Mr Andanson was a man who was
8 dedicated to his work and family?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. He worked alone, he worked hard and you either loved him
11 or hated him?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. But did he then say this, that he recalled that
14 Mr Andanson had told him about ten years before, whilst
15 in Switzerland, that if anything were ever to happen to
16 his wife, he would kill himself by pouring petrol from
17 a canister he had in his car boot and lighting it with
18 the end of his cigar?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did the witness say that that was not the only time that
21 he had talked about committing suicide in a violent
22 manner?
23 A. That is right, yes, sir.
24 Q. And said that he was worried about his son and
25 the financing of his driving school?
123
1 A. That is right, sir, yes.
2 Q. Then, if we stay on this theme, although it is slightly
3 out of number order, but stay on the topic; D115. Was
4 a statement taken from somebody called Frank Doveri?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Who said that he had known Mr Andanson for about
7 12 years, said that they used to work together in
8 Switzerland in winter and the south coast of France in
9 the summer.
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. Did he say that in April 2000, whilst on a job in
12 Klosters, another photographer had mentioned that his --
13 that is the other photographer's -- wife had left him?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. And later, did Mr Andanson say that, according to this
16 witness, if his wife left him, he would lie down on
17 a bed next to her and put a bullet in his head?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Did he describe Mr Andanson as a loud character,
20 hard-working, with no enemies, and did he explain that
21 on the night of the incident in the Alma Tunnel, that he
22 had telephoned Mr Andanson and left a message on his
23 answerphone and in due course he was called back and
24 Mr Andanson told him he was en route to see
25 Gilbert Becaud, the man in Corsica?
124
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Just this, because we really do have to deal with it.
3 Is this right: Operation Paget officers interviewed
4 Mrs Andanson; is that right?
5 A. Yes, that is correct, sir.
6 Q. Did she say that at the time of her husband's death,
7 that she had been having a relationship with a local
8 man. Is that right?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. That that had been going on since 1998 to 1999; that is
11 when it had started?
12 A. I do not remember the dates.
13 Q. It is towards the end of your report. Take it from me.
14 She did not believe that her husband had found out about
15 it. That is what she thought.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Then, 128, was a statement taken from a lady called
18 Sophie Deniau on 15th November 2000?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did she say that she had been due to meet up with
21 Mr Andanson on 4th May at 4 o'clock in the afternoon?
22 She had gone to his agency in Paris, but obviously he
23 had not turned up.
24 A. That is correct, and I believe that meeting was on his
25 diary as well when it was examined.
125
1 Q. Did she say that she recalled a conversation with him
2 very shortly before, on 18th April 2000, when he had
3 told her that if anything happened to any member of his
4 family, he would not be able to live with himself and he
5 would commit suicide by sitting in his car with a good
6 cigar and burning himself?
7 A. That is correct, sir, yes.
8 Q. Then just two more, please, from inquiries about
9 Mr Andanson himself.
10 D104, 27th June 2000, a statement made by
11 a Mr Smadja of the Sygma press agency, who said he had
12 known Mr Andanson for many years; is that right?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Did he describe Mr Andanson as a larger than life
15 character with a big mouth, a big personality?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Lastly on this topic, 105, did a Mr Doucin,
18 a photographer and a friend of Mr Andanson's since
19 1975, make a statement --
20 A. He did, sir, yes.
21 Q. -- in which he described Mr Andanson as a very
22 hard-working man who liked showing off that he was
23 probably the best-paid photographer in Paris?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did he say that he had never heard him speak of
126
1 suicide --
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. -- but said that from what he knew of him, the suicide
4 would have been as a result of financial or familial
5 worries?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. Did he confirm that Mr Andanson carried a jerry can in
8 the boot of his car?
9 A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. Then, was there a statement -- I am looking at D86.
11 A. Yes, from James Andanson Junior.
12 Q. Did he say that his father had a 10-litre jerry can for
13 fuel, a 5-litre plastic container for radiator fluid and
14 a 2-litre metal container for engine oil?
15 A. Yes, and another container for washer fluid.
16 Q. Did he also explain that in his father's office at his
17 home, his father had left his photographic equipment,
18 his wallet, his mobile phone and his Cartier watch;
19 items which really never left his side?
20 A. That is correct, yes.
21 Q. Because he had left his house that morning, I think,
22 hadn't he?
23 A. Yes.
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: He paid for the petrol with
25 a credit card?
127
1 A. Yes, sir, or a cash card. I am not sure which.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Is there any indication as to
3 whether that card was ever found?
4 A. No, sir, but having seen the interior in the vehicle, it
5 has probably been incinerated.
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: It was not in his wallet, anyway?
7 A. No, sir.
8 MR HILLIARD: I am now looking at D79. Was there
9 a statement from a Mr Cottencin, the accountant at Sipa
10 Press?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did he say that on 5th May, so the day after the body
13 was discovered, that he had received a letter from
14 Mr Andanson giving the rights to all his work to his
15 wife? Is that the copyrighting, for example, to all
16 the photographic work?
17 A. Yes, all his back catalogue of photographs.
18 Q. So that letter arrived on the 5th, assigning all those
19 rights to his wife?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did Mr Cottencin say that he did not believe that
22 Mr Andanson had any financial worries as he was earning,
23 he said, approximately 2 million francs per year?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Then D120, was there a statement from a journalist -- it
128
1 looks as if that is Sipahioglu.
2 A. Sipahioglu, yes, a journalist at Sipa Press.
3 Q. Did he say that he had heard of what had happened from
4 Mrs Andanson and did he say that on the same day
5 the agency received a bill from Mr Andanson asking that
6 all payments be made to his wife?
7 A. Yes, that is correct.
8 Q. Thank you very much indeed.
9 A. Thank you sir.
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Easton, have you seen anything
11 in the dossier that points to any cause of death other
12 than suicide?
13 A. No, sir, and when I reviewed the dossier along with
14 three other officers from Operation Paget, we were also
15 with judicial police officers from Bordeaux that were
16 there to assist us. They had never seen the dossier
17 before either. They reviewed it and, in their opinion,
18 they thought the investigation that had been conducted
19 by the judge at Millau and the judicial police officers
20 that had dealt with it was a very good investigation and
21 they concluded as well that there was nothing to suggest
22 anything else than a suicide.
23 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: As far as the actual machinery of
24 the suicide was concerned, is the inference that
25 the vehicle was doused with petrol --
129
1 A. The interior of the vehicle, yes, sir.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: -- or some kind of accelerant,
3 and perhaps the victim himself.
4 A. Yes.
5 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: And then he lit it with a cigar?
6 A. That is the suggestion, from listening to the evidence
7 or reading the evidence from the people that knew him.
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield?
9 Questions from MR MANSFIELD
10 MR MANSFIELD: Good afternoon. I do not think I need to
11 introduce myself.
12 A. No, sir.
13 Q. You have been sitting here quite a lot. I am afraid
14 I have quite a lot of questions for you in relation to
15 this. If you need time or you want to go back to
16 the dossier, please say so and I will delay it until
17 a later time.
18 I am going to stand back a bit, if I may, for a
19 start, in view of the questions you have been asked
20 about what other people have said.
21 First of all, when you went down to review this
22 dossier, did you make any independent inquiries of your
23 own?
24 A. No. We had a strict remit. We are only entitled to do
25 a certain number of things and I have recorded that in
130
1 my report, in fact. Having made a request to review
2 the suicide dossier file, we travelled to France. Four
3 officers from Operation Paget travelled to France.
4 We met up with the judge that would be allowing us to
5 proceed with these inquiries, who said that we would be
6 given a copy of the French dossier, and we saw both
7 the original when we were there, a copy, and given
8 a copy that was identical; we would be given
9 the opportunity to speak to some of the investigating
10 officers if they were available; we would be able to
11 visit the scene of the incident, but that we would only
12 be able to speak to other people through the judicial
13 police officers that were assisting us; and that if any
14 further investigation or any re-investigation was
15 required, then this would have to be done through
16 a formal process which we were not entitled to do at
17 that time.
18 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: A further letter of request
19 presumably.
20 A. That is correct, sir, yes.
21 MR MANSFIELD: Which I assume, from what you are saying, was
22 not issued.
23 A. It was not, sir.
24 Q. It was not issued.
25 So, fundamentally, it is a review of the paperwork
131
1 alongside the people who drew up the paperwork; is that
2 an assessment?
3 A. They were not present there and then, but we did speak
4 to them.
5 Q. Yes. All right. I just want to deal with one or two
6 matters as factual matters.
7 First of all, it is quite clear in this case that
8 Mr Andanson did not leave any documents -- sometimes
9 described as a suicide note or a document -- or
10 anything, did he?
11 A. No, there was no suicide note.
12 Q. There is no indication in this case, at or about
13 the time -- namely we are talking about May of 2000,
14 beginning of that month -- there is no indication from
15 anybody who spoke to him around that time that he was
16 unstable; correct?
17 A. I do not know if I can make that judgment. He had
18 spoken to Sophie Deniau and mentioned --
19 Q. I said "May".
20 A. In May?
21 Q. People who spoke to him either on the day, the day
22 before, the day before that.
23 A. I am just trying to recall when he spoke to
24 Sophie Deniau. If you bear with me.
25 Q. The date you gave moments ago was an April date. It was
132
1 the 18th.
2 A. In that case, no, sir. Thank you.
3 Q. Just looking at the son's material, you were not asked
4 about this, but you were asked about -- and you can look
5 at your summary if you wish, it is D86 -- he was
6 asked -- and I will have to come back to this about
7 containers and personal effects, but he also explained
8 his relationship with his father, didn't he?
9 A. I believe so, but I cannot help you with the details.
10 Q. Don't you have it there, D86?
11 A. I only have my summary. I do not have a copy of the
12 dossier.
13 Q. That will do for the moment. It may be necessary to
14 look in more detail. In any event, I understand it is
15 carded to give evidence but I am just doing it quickly
16 for the moment.
17 Looking at D86 as you have summarised it -- you were
18 not asked to read this part of it out:
19 "He explains his relationship with his father and
20 the movements on the last days of his life."
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. This is the person whom it is said might be the cause of
23 his worries, et cetera. What one is looking for here is
24 a reason why this man might engage in such an, you would
25 agree, extraordinarily bizarre and painful death; would
133
1 you agree?
2 A. I would not disagree with you, sir.
3 Q. To sit there and set light to -- we will come to however
4 many litres it may have been, it may not matter -- he
5 sets light to all of that while he sits there is
6 extraordinary torture for anybody, isn't it?
7 A. I would think so.
8 Q. So he would have to have a pretty strong reason to want
9 to get rid of himself in this way, wouldn't he?
10 A. I cannot guess. I presume so.
11 Q. You have been asked to review the file. That is why
12 I am asking you the questions, otherwise I would not ask
13 you these questions. He would have to have, I suggest
14 to you, a pretty strong reason -- unless, of course,
15 somebody suggests that he was mentally unstable, but
16 there is no suggestion anywhere that he is
17 psychiatrically unbalanced or anything, is there?
18 A. No, sir.
19 Q. So he is not psychiatrically unbalanced. So I want to
20 go through conceivable reasons that others have claimed
21 from time to time he may have mentioned. Just going on
22 with his son: the son, if you recall, had in fact spent
23 quite a bit of time just before the 4th with him, hadn't
24 he?
25 A. I am trying to remember.
134
1 Q. I will put it to you to save time. The 2nd, 3rd and
2 4th May, his father -- that is James Andanson -- and the
3 son attended a race track.
4 A. That is correct, yes.
5 Q. And they stayed -- well, I don't know about the son, but
6 certainly James Andanson stayed at a hotel called Ibis.
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. So it is in that context that we go on your summary here
9 for the moment.
10 "He states that his father was a dedicated man and
11 he did not know of any financial worries."
12 Now may I pause there?
13 His wife indicated that he did not have any
14 financial worries, the accountant indicated that he did
15 not have any financial worries and his son said he did
16 not have any financial worries, right?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. We also know from the figures and from his general
19 practice that he is an extremely successful
20 photographer, top of his profession, earning a lot of
21 money.
22 A. That is what people say, but with regards to
23 the accountant, it is not his accountant. It is the
24 accountant to one of the press agencies.
25 Q. You have not discovered, reviewing the dossier, any
135
1 suggestion that he had some clandestine huge debts which
2 might have driven him to this, did you?
3 A. No, not that I am aware of, sir.
4 Q. That is what -- again, I am dealing with a summary.
5 Indeed, his father had sponsored him in 1999, the year
6 before, to the amount of 750,000 francs, and he
7 stated -- and again it is a summary -- that his father
8 was happy with his work in motor racing.
9 A. That was James Andanson Junior's impression, yes.
10 Q. Wait a minute. You are only reviewing the paperwork,
11 are you not?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. Did you go to James and ask him whether that was a false
14 impression?
15 A. I have not spoken with James Andanson.
16 Q. No, right. You see, if anybody might discern concern by
17 a parent for what they are doing -- and we have all
18 either been the child of a parent or a parent, one of
19 the two -- they might be particularly sensitive if
20 the father was really showing real worries about -- let
21 us take the obvious -- racing round a track and he might
22 die. The father would, one way or another, manage over
23 the years to communicate that concern even if he did not
24 really to, wouldn't he?
25 A. Well, James' impression, as you have rightly said, was
136
1 that his father had no worries, but other people who
2 knew James Andanson Senior have said that he was worried
3 about his son's chosen profession of being a racing
4 driver.
5 Q. Of course. I am dealing with what the son is saying.
6 You have picked out of here some of the people who have
7 indicated that he had certain worries. So I am going
8 straight to the person who I suggest to you might know
9 more than others whether his father really was worried
10 about that. Can we go further?
11 "... states that his father left personal effects at
12 home on that last day because a change in motor vehicle
13 was imminent."
14 I am going to pause there for a moment. Did anyone
15 consider, when reviewing these documents, that besides
16 the possibility of suicide, James Andanson was preparing
17 for a meeting and the outcome of which he was not sure;
18 in other words, there was a risk that he was running
19 that day that he might not come out alive? Did that
20 occur to anybody?
21 A. That is the first I have heard of it, sir.
22 Q. Yes, I am sorry, but if you have an open mind in an
23 investigation and don't immediately think it is suicide
24 from the beginning -- did you think that from
25 the beginning?
137
1 A. No, not at all.
2 Q. So did you ever consider that possibility?
3 A. Not personally.
4 Q. I appreciate that there are not any witnesses to this
5 incident; nobody saw the car driving into the wood,
6 nobody in the wood, no passers-by. It is in the late
7 evening.
8 A. No, a vehicle of that description had been seen in
9 the area with only the driver therein. Other than that,
10 there are no direct witnesses.
11 Q. So the possibility that I have just put to you was not
12 ever considered.
13 Was it ever considered by the French police?
14 A. I do not know what they considered and did not consider.
15 Q. Yes, you did because you went through the dossier, and
16 I have some other questions about what the French
17 considered. If you cannot answer them and you need
18 time, say so and you can have it overnight. Did
19 the French police, as far as you can gather from all of
20 these documents, consider that possibility?
21 A. I cannot answer that question. I do not know.
22 Q. Would you be kind enough to go through the dossier --
23 I do not ask every single word, I know it is a massive
24 task -- to see if there is any document suggesting that
25 they ever thought about that.
138
1 I want to move on. What his son says states that
2 there were no problems within the family and that
3 the relationship with his mother was good. Do you see
4 that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You were not asked to read that out either a minute ago.
7 Now, I want to deal with this globally as the other
8 possible motive that other people say he might commit
9 suicide if he finds out -- and one understands
10 the situation obviously -- if he finds out that his wife
11 is having an affair, he is saying "I will kill myself"
12 or "I will shoot myself" or "I will do something
13 dreadful to myself".
14 Now, certainly his son does not seem to suggest that
15 there was a problem between the two of them; that is
16 mother and father.
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. Mrs Andanson did not seem to think that he knew anything
19 about whatever the relationship was -- and I do not want
20 to go there and investigate it -- but that was her
21 impression, that he did not know.
22 A. That is correct, sir.
23 Q. There is absolutely no evidence from any source, is
24 there, that he did know about any potential or actual
25 relationship?
139
1 A. No, there is no evidence.
2 Q. Right. So that it does not appear on the face of it,
3 vis a vis his son at least, that he is aware of any
4 worries about the dangers of motor racing. There is
5 certainly nothing as far as both son and wife are
6 concerned that there is a financial problem and
7 certainly nothing to suggest that he knew about any
8 other relationship.
9 A. Well, I am sorry, sir. With regards to the financial
10 problem, that is a very wide question because
11 Mrs Andanson was looking to obtain a loan around that
12 time and -- you will probably hear more from
13 Mrs Andanson about it -- in order to get funds in order
14 to repair Mr James Andanson Junior's racing vehicle, as
15 I understand it, so we may hear more on that.
16 Q. Yes, but he was earning enough money and he had a deal.
17 We have just heard about it this morning. He had a deal
18 with a sponsor, didn't he?
19 A. I think that was for the previous year.
20 Q. But he had a deal?
21 A. For the previous year. I do not know about the
22 forthcoming year. I would have to check the file.
23 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield, this is not an
24 inquest into the death of Mr Andanson. Indeed, the jury
25 may wonder whether there is any evidence at all
140
1 connecting Mr Andanson with the events which they are
2 considering. So there is really a limit to how far you
3 can explore matters of this kind and I think that you
4 have been given a lot of latitude so far.
5 MR MANSFIELD: Well, I appreciate the latitude. However,
6 I have been very careful and we have said from
7 the beginning that there is evidence. The jury heard it
8 yesterday. Whether and how they deal with that evidence
9 is a matter entirely for them, but Mr and Mrs Dard gave
10 evidence of a conversation. Now, either that --
11 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We are not going to go into all
12 of that now.
13 MR MANSFIELD: But that is the link.
14 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: In due course I will have to
15 direct the jury about what evidence there is and what
16 evidence there is not.
17 MR MANSFIELD: I appreciate that. But plainly if that
18 conversation took place -- and no one has suggested it
19 did not -- the link is plainly there.
20 Can I go on with this? You have been asked about
21 all this detail, in general terms about all the people
22 who said X, Y and Z, and that you came to the
23 conclusion, the same as the French, that it was suicide,
24 and in those circumstances I am certainly -- otherwise
25 I would not have asked this --
141
1 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: If you have a bull point that
2 it was not suicide, put it to --
3 MR MANSFIELD: Well, yes, the bull point is this: actually
4 the bull point is that nobody really knows, do they?
5 A. Well, there is nothing to suggest, from my examination
6 of the French dossier and the examination that has been
7 conducted by the French officers or the two judges
8 involved, that it is anything else other than suicide,
9 sir.
10 Q. You see, it appears from the way the French approached
11 it that it was treated as suicide from the beginning;
12 a six-day delay before they ever got round even to an
13 autopsy. Do you agree?
14 A. There was a delay between the body being removed from
15 the vehicle and the autopsy, but I would suggest that
16 the French conducting an investigation from May 2000 to
17 I believe April 2001 on this incident is quite
18 a considerable amount of time and quite a lot of
19 investigations have been done in all parts of
20 Mr Andanson's life.
21 Q. You see, the problem with the investigation of the
22 scene, as we heard only yesterday, because of the fire
23 itself, you just don't know whether it is a case of
24 a man conducting a bizarre and painful death or whether,
25 in fact, some violence had been meted out to him first
142
1 and he was either fully conscious or half-conscious
2 because of what had happened. You just don't know that,
3 do you?
4 A. That is, I believe, Mr Baccino's evidence.
5 Q. Yes. You cannot tell from the evidence. This is not
6 a case of finding a body in pretty good condition and
7 you can go through it and say at the end of the
8 examination, "Look, there is no sign of anything"
9 because, in this case, you don't have a body like that,
10 do you?
11 A. But you have an investigation --
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. -- a full investigation, as I see it, which has
14 concluded that there is nothing to suggest anything
15 other than a suicide.
16 Q. Let's look at the full investigation, shall we, for
17 a moment? I really do not want to take too much time
18 but I want to take the bull points.
19 Could you deal with this question first of all? Did
20 the French investigation ever discover the person who
21 actually sold the fuel?
22 A. No, I do not believe so.
23 Q. That would have been a pretty easy matter to locate,
24 would it not? Not now, not when you went out, but when
25 they were investigating?
143
1 A. The issue there is that the payment for the fuel was
2 made with a pin number, and I am unsure, because it is
3 not in the French dossier, whether or not it was paid
4 for by card, as was in France and in some petrol
5 stations here now, where you don't even see someone in
6 a kiosk. You can pay for it at the machine. I just
7 don't know. That person may not exist.
8 Q. Well, of course, it is all very important to discover
9 all of that. No inquiries were made at the time about
10 this, were they?
11 A. Inquiries were made at the petrol station, but that
12 specific question, I cannot answer.
13 Q. Yes, you can, if you don't mind, and if you need
14 overnight to check it -- does it not appear that no
15 inquiries were made at the garage, either to discover
16 whether there was a cashier on duty or, if there was not
17 a cashier on duty, it was a machine, et cetera -- was
18 it?
19 A. If you want to leave that with me, sir, I will come back
20 to you. I would rather get it right, check the French
21 dossier.
22 Q. The reason I am coming to -- and it is easier perhaps
23 for everybody if we just look at a summary document
24 which has it all in one place, as it were.
25 It is actually in two places. I am going to try to
144
1 get one where there is an inquiry number to go with it.
2 If you could just give me a moment. Well, the first one
3 is [INQ0051273].
4 A. Unfortunately I do not have the INQ numbers on my form,
5 but if you give me a D reference number.
6 Q. I am going to do it more quickly. Do you have
7 a summary, D45? Do you have that? If you don't have
8 that, I will have to do it in another document.
9 A. No, I do not. I only have a one-line summary for that,
10 sir, sorry.
11 Q. I do not want to take up a lot of time so I am going to
12 summarise it to you. You may remember.
13 The position here is -- and if you just follow me
14 while I put it to you. I have the French version there
15 for you as well -- but he buys or someone buys, on
16 a card, 608 francs' worth of fuel at 3.36. Now, the car
17 only operates on diesel oil, doesn't it?
18 A. That is my understanding from the dossier.
19 Q. Who checked the tank to see how much was in there?
20 A. I do not know that that was done. You might be able to
21 enlighten me. I would need to look at the dossier.
22 Q. Another overnight, if you don't mind. Was the tank in
23 the car ever checked to see what was in the tank and how
24 much was in the tank? You will see why that may be
25 important.
145
1 A. Again, sir, I have not had the benefit of advance
2 warning for this. I would need to look back at the
3 French dossier.
4 Q. Mr Easton, you began the inquiries before. It doesn't
5 require me coming now, years later, posing questions
6 which I suggest should have been asked in the first
7 place.
8 A. I would need to check the French dossier, sir. I did
9 not get any advanced warning of this today and it has
10 been some time since I had a look at the full 650-page
11 dossier.
12 Q. Did you ever think of asking that question?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Thank you. Now we will just move on. We don't know how
15 much was left in the tank of the car. The figures that
16 were worked out were because the person at the garage
17 who was seen was the person in charge of the store
18 accounts. Is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. It is not a person on the pump, as it were. All they
21 can say from the chit, if you like, the card chit that
22 is issued, is that fuel has been purchased, and at
23 the time they were able to give you or give the French
24 police an indication of what the various grades cost; in
25 other words, there are three types, as you have
146
1 indicated. All right? Are you following?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. The calculations that were done by the French police and
4 adopted by the English police, but the French police did
5 it first, was in fact to assume that he had bought
6 60 litres of diesel for his car. Right?
7 A. Well I think the assumption is the only calculations you
8 can do are if you assume that 60 litres had been
9 purchased, a total of something else can be purchased as
10 well. We just don't know what was purchased other than
11 we know that the accelerants were super carburant.
12 Q. I was going to come to that. You have obviously already
13 stated it. When a sample was taken from the footwell,
14 what was discovered was petrol, not diesel.
15 A. Correct, sir.
16 Q. Now, in relation to, therefore, whatever was bought, if
17 one looks at the overall total, it is probably,
18 the overall -- 600 francs -- around 100 litres of
19 something.
20 A. I think you are right there, sir.
21 Q. Now, that is an unusual amount for someone to buy if
22 there is someone on the till at the garage keeping an
23 eye because the person is not only filling the car up as
24 full as it will get, but then having to a carry away
25 a lot more.
147
1 A. I cannot say whether that is unusual because it is
2 a rural area. People have motorised mowers. It can be
3 quite normal for someone at a pump to do that.
4 Q. I appreciate it could be quite normal. And, of course,
5 Millau itself is a relatively large town under the new
6 bridge that has just been built, isn't it?
7 A. I would not call it a very large town or a relatively
8 large town. It is certainly not a village, but the town
9 square is certainly smaller than the square outside this
10 building.
11 Q. Moving on from the amount that is being bought, so it is
12 around 100 litres, so that if, in fact, therefore he is
13 filling the whole car up, it is unlikely -- he has
14 managed to drive it in the garage so there is bound to
15 be some in the tank already, isn't there?
16 A. There could be anything in the tank. We just don't
17 know.
18 Q. What I am coming to is fairly obvious, that he is going
19 to need quite a few containers, either a fairly large
20 number of 5-litre containers or a fairly large number of
21 10-litre containers, isn't he?
22 A. Well, he is going to need containers, yes.
23 Q. As we see from his son's statement to you, summarised at
24 D86, what he normally carried, a 10-litre jerry can and
25 a 5-litre plastic container, just would not be enough,
148
1 would it?
2 A. If that is what he had in his boot, container-wise,
3 obviously not, no. It does not total up.
4 Q. As we know, there is certainly no metal jerry can, which
5 others mention as well. There is no metal jerry can
6 found, is there?
7 A. That is a very difficult question to answer because, as
8 you have seen from the photographs, everything that is
9 inside the vehicle has almost disintegrated.
10 Q. Not metal.
11 A. There is a metal object found in the vehicle, though,
12 that is listed, that we translated this afternoon.
13 Q. Let's deal with it specifically. Is a jerry can found?
14 A. It is not described as a "jerry can", but -- I do not
15 know. No, certainly not described as a "jerry can" in
16 the dossier.
17 Q. Has it ever occurred to you that this is something that
18 should be looked at, the question --
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield, I do not know why
20 you keep putting to him "This is something that should
21 be looked at". This depends on the perspective from
22 which you are approaching this.
23 MR MANSFIELD: I think that is my point.
24 A. The fact of the matter is that there has been a
25 description of what was or was not in the vehicle done
149
1 within the dossier. I cannot add to that.
2 MR MANSFIELD: You could have by asking a few questions of
3 the officers in France. Correct?
4 A. The report has been done. They have listed saying that
5 they have a minutious examination of the interior of the
6 vehicle, and if it is not on that report --
7 Q. It is not there?
8 A. -- it is not there.
9 Q. If it is not in the report, you don't ask any questions.
10 Is that the position?
11 A. I think you are twisting my words, sir.
12 Q. Did you ask a single question of the French police, "Did
13 you find a jerry can?"
14 A. That question was not asked. I was content with what
15 was in the report.
16 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I do not suppose you went over
17 there on the basis of, "Well, let's prove this was
18 murder and not suicide and I am going to look at
19 everything possible to establish that that was the cause
20 of death rather than what appears in the dossier".
21 A. We went over there to do a reading, a review, of
22 the French dossier in the extent -- a reading of
23 the French dossier and had the opportunity to see
24 the site of the incident and we went with an open mind.
25 MR MANSFIELD: I understand the learned Coroner's point.
150
1 I am not suggesting that you go over there to prove
2 murder. I am merely suggesting that you go over there
3 to ask a few open-ended questions with an open mind. Do
4 you follow?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That is perfectly reasonable, isn't it?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Now the final issue on this. Leaving aside metal
9 containers, is there any analysis anywhere to suggest
10 that plastic containers were found in the remnants of
11 the vehicle?
12 A. Not within the dossier, no.
13 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Would you expect to find plastic
14 containers if there was a big conflagration?
15 A. I think you would expect to find quite a bit of plastic
16 on the inside of the vehicle, but I don't know. I am
17 not a forensics expert. I would not be able to say what
18 is there and what is not. We have seen the photographs
19 and it is a mess.
20 MR MANSFIELD: Well, I am not going to take more time on
21 that. Maybe someone else can deal with that issue.
22 If you would just give me one second, please.
23 Yes, thank you very much.
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Weekes?
25 MR WEEKES: No thank you, sir.
151
1 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Croxford?
2 MR CROXFORD: I had better just try clarify the point
3 I tried with the last witness, sir.
4 Questions from MR CROXFORD
5 MR CROXFORD: Sergeant, D78, if that helps you.
6 Can you confirm that the motorcycle which
7 Mr Andanson was found to have owned and was parked in
8 the SIPA agency on 10th May 2000 was a BMW motorcycle
9 with a licence plate, if it matters, 9811RC18?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. It had done something over 39,000 kilometres?
12 A. I do not have that in front of me, but if it is in
13 the dossier, I am sure --
14 Q. 39,314.
15 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: And it was first registered in
16 1988.
17 MR CROXFORD: It was first registered in 1988 and it was
18 orangey red.
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you.
20 MR CROXFORD: Those are the matters that the last witness
21 was somewhat dubious about answering, sir.
22 There we are.
23 Further questions from MR MANSFIELD
24 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, I do apologise.
25 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
152
1 MR MANSFIELD: I am so sorry. I had it on my list and I was
2 looking for it.
3 A. No. It is all right, sir.
4 Q. Could you check whether the dossier has any indication,
5 as the officer this afternoon, there would have been an
6 area search and in particular, whether anyone was
7 looking for footprints.
8 A. Right. Again, I will have to go back to the dossier,
9 but I will do so.
10 MR MANSFIELD: Thank you very much.
11 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Horwell?
12 Questions from MR HORWELL
13 MR HORWELL: Just a few more details, please, from
14 the French investigation. We heard from the witness
15 this morning that Mr Andanson had a lunch appointment
16 with him on the day that he died.
17 A. M Christophe Lafaille.
18 Q. Yes, which Mr Andanson had canceled in the morning?
19 A. Yes, that is correct.
20 Q. There is in fact another appointment. This is D128.
21 A. Thank you.
22 Q. There is in fact another appointment that he had that
23 day, with Sophie Deniau.
24 A. That is correct, sir, yes.
25 Q. For the afternoon, 4.00 pm.
153
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. And he did not attend that meeting.
3 A. No, he did not.
4 Q. But there is more to this than that; that appointment
5 with her was in fact the last appointment in
6 Mr Andanson's diary?
7 A. Yes, that is correct.
8 Q. At all?
9 A. At all. And that was something that is reported within
10 the dossier as being something unusual because normally
11 he would have a number of appointments ahead.
12 Q. So his diary from this day onwards was blank?
13 A. That is what is in the dossier, sir, yes.
14 Q. A wealthy man, obviously, but his son was racing
15 Formula 3.
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. An expensive form of motor racing?
18 A. If you say so. I would presume so.
19 Q. We have heard 750,000 French francs in 1999?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Even for Mr Andanson, that was a significant amount of
22 money?
23 A. I would have thought so. Yes, sir.
24 Q. And we will hear from his wife next week that on the day
25 that he died, she was attempting to obtain a loan to
154
1 repair the son's racing car and she had not even told
2 her husband about the fact?
3 A. That is correct, sir, yes.
4 Q. And we know, and will know next week when she gives
5 evidence, that she was having an affair at the time.
6 A. That is correct, sir, yes.
7 Q. And as to the evidence of suicide, just to put together
8 the evidence that the French officers have obtained:
9 he had spoken of killing himself before on a number of
10 occasions?
11 A. Yes. We have looked at four occasions today, sir.
12 Q. As to the method of killing himself, he had spoken of
13 pouring petrol into a car?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Smoking a cigar?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. And setting himself on fire with the end of that cigar?
18 A. That is correct, sir.
19 Q. And in the car was found the cigar lighter, not in
20 the fascia but --
21 A. Behind the driver's seat.
22 Q. And also found were the, no doubt few, remnants of
23 a Henri Wintermans cigar packet.
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: You referred to a document
25 setting out various things that were found in the car.
155
1 In it there was a reference to Henri Wintermans and
2 then I do not think you translated the remainder of the
3 sentence. I am wondering if it had any significance.
4 A. Not in full. I believe, unless I am corrected
5 otherwise, that it was the colour of the packet, which
6 was red.
7 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: And then there was something
8 after that, I think.
9 A. I would have to look at it again. I am sorry.
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: It may be that there is nothing
11 in this. I nearly asked you at the time.
12 MR HORWELL: It is D61, I think.
13 A. Yes, INQ number is [INQ0051208].
14 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: "... qui devait etre vide au
15 moment ... "
16 It was those words, "... of the colour red".
17 A. "Red in colour, that would have been empty at the time
18 of the fire".
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: So it is the packet that is
20 empty?
21 A. Yes, sir. Sorry.
22 MR HORWELL: And you have confirmed from an entry read out
23 from the report that there was a congealed mass
24 containing, amongst other items, molten plastic.
25 A. Yes, sir.
156
1 Q. It was found in the car. From what it came, no one will
2 know.
3 A. No.
4 Q. But obviously everything that had been plastic in
5 the car had melted. It is bare metal when you look at
6 the photographs, isn't it, in the main?
7 A. In the main, it is bare metal but obviously the fascia
8 of the dashboard, there are -- you don't know what it is
9 really, by looking at the photographs.
10 Q. I am not suggesting that plastic has not survived but
11 perhaps we can look at some better quality photographs
12 of the scene. But basically when you look into the car,
13 it is bare metal, isn't it?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. And Mr Mansfield's suggestion is that that Mr Andanson
16 went to a meeting at which he thought he might die.
17 Is there any evidence of that whatsoever?
18 A. No, sir.
19 MR HORWELL: Thank you.
20 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Hilliard?
21 MR HILLIARD: Just this.
22 Further questions from MR HILLIARD
23 MR HILLIARD: You were asked about what questions that you
24 had asked the French and what material there was about a
25 search of footprints and so on.
157
1 There is a note in your report that Mr Lauzun had
2 "ordered a search of the local road and roadsides,
3 anything which may appear suspicious, to preserve
4 evidence in case something sinister is later
5 identified."
6 You say that you were told of that in person during
7 questioning.
8 A. That rings a bell. If it is in my report then it is
9 correct, sir. Yes.
10 MR HILLIARD: Thank you very much.
11 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you, Mr Easton.
12 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, I am very sorry. It is just because
13 something was put.
14 Further questions from MR MANSFIELD
15 I wonder if the officer could indicate where there
16 is any reference to molten plastic in D61, please.
17 A. Do you need the number again?
18 Q. Yes, I am sorry.
19 A. It is quite all right. The number is [INQ0051208].
20 (Pause). You are quite right, it is not molten plastic
21 in D61. It says "an agglomere de matier", which is
22 a mass of matter, "including glass". Whether or not
23 there is mention of that somewhere else in the dossier,
24 I would have to check.
25 MR MANSFIELD: It is only because my learned friend put that
158
1 to you. That is all. Thank you.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you very much. If you
3 could check those points overnight, or rather over
4 the weekend.
5 A. I will, sir.
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Or before Monday. Thank you.
7 Members of the jury, on Monday, it is a 10 o'clock
8 start. It was going to be videolink from Paris but
9 the witnesses who we had hoped would be coming are not
10 available on Monday. I think there has been a late
11 change and we have Mr Benson coming on Monday morning
12 and Lord Jay later on Monday, either in the late morning
13 or early afternoon.
14 10 o'clock Monday, members of the jury, and
15 thereafter next week, they will all be 10 o'clock
16 starts, if that is helpful for you to know.
17 (4.07 pm)
18 (The hearing was adjourned until
19 10.00 am on 11th February 2007)
20
21
22
23
24
25
159
1 INDEX
2
3 MR JEAN-FRANCOIS LANGLOIS (affirmed) ............. 1
4
5 Questions from MR HOUGH ................... 1
6
7 Questions from MR CROXFORD ................ 8
8
9 MR CHRISTOPHE LAFAILLE (affirmed) ................ 12
10
11 Questions from MR HOUGH ................... 12
12
13 Questions from MR MANSFIELD ............... 48
14
15 Questions from MR CROXFORD ................ 62
16
17 Questions from MR HORWELL ................. 80
18
19 Further questions from MR HOUGH ........... 90
20
21 Further questions from MR MANSFIELD ....... 92
22
23 MR JEAN-MICHEL LAUZUN (affirmed) ................. 94
24
25 Questions from MR HILLIARD ................ 94
160
1
2 Questions from MR MANSFIELD ............... 103
3
4 Questions from MR CROXFORD ................ 109
5
6 Further questions from MR HILLIARD ........ 110
7
8 DC PHILIP EASTON (sworn) ......................... 113
9
10 Questions from MR HILLIARD ................ 113
11
12 Questions from MR MANSFIELD ............... 130
13
14 Questions from MR CROXFORD ................ 152
15
16 Further questions from MR MANSFIELD ....... 152
17
18 Questions from MR HORWELL ................. 153
19
20 Further questions from MR HILLIARD ........ 157
21
22 Further questions from MR MANSFIELD ....... 158
23
24
25
93
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