6 February 2008 - Morning session
1 Wednesday, 6th February 2008
2 (9.30 am)
3 (Jury present)
4 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Good morning. Can you hear us in
5 Paris satisfactorily today?
6 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: Yes, we can, sir.
7 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you.
8 Mr Hough, which of the two Dards are we going to
9 call first?
10 MR HOUGH: Madame Francoise Dard.
11 MME FRANCOISE DARD (sworn)
12 (Evidence via videolink, interpreted)
13 Questions from MR HOUGH
14 MR HOUGH: Is your name Francoise Dard?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. My name is Jonathan Hough and I shall ask you questions
17 first on behalf of the Coroner. I think you were
18 a family friend of James Andanson.
19 A. I am not a friend. I am the wife of a famous writer
20 that Mr Andanson came to see twice a year.
21 Q. But you got to know James Andanson over quite a number
22 of years, didn't you?
23 A. Two to three times a year, during ten years, if
24 I remember well.
25 Q. I think you made a witness statement to officers from
1
1 both the British and French police in October of 2006.
2 Is that right?
3 A. Yes, that is right.
4 Q. I think an account from you had also previously appeared
5 in a book by somebody called Francis Gillery, entitled
6 "Lady Died".
7 A. I have known Francis Gillery because he made a TV show
8 on my husband, so we spent ten days together, and during
9 these ten days, we became relatives(sic) and we spoke
10 about Andanson and the death of Lady Di.
11 Q. And some of what you said later appeared in his book,
12 didn't it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now other than Mr Gillery and the police, have you given
15 your account formally or informally to any other people?
16 A. To speak about the death of Mr Andanson was a topic
17 which was quite regular during the days which followed
18 his death. People believed in his committing suicide,
19 others did not believe, so it was a common topic.
20 Q. Have you given any media interviews or received payment
21 for your account of events?
22 A. No, not at all, and I did not see anybody else but
23 Francis Gillery.
24 Q. Am I therefore right in assuming that you are not
25 expecting, in the future, any payment for your account?
2
1 A. No, not at all. Of course not.
2 Q. As you have already said, your late husband,
3 Frederic Dard, was a famous writer of crime and spy
4 novels.
5 A. He was really interested -- he was more interested in
6 everything turning around the police, more than the
7 other people of course.
8 Q. I think he died in June 2000, is that right?
9 A. 6th June 2000, yes.
10 Q. In your statement to the French and British police, you
11 indicated that you had known James Andanson for about
12 30 years. Is that right?
13 A. Maybe. I met with him twice a year.
14 Q. I think the first time you met was when he photographed
15 your family on behalf of the Sygma agency.
16 A. I do not remember when was and where was the first time,
17 but it was always at the same locations and he was
18 always taking photographs of our family.
19 Q. Those locations -- you said you met two or three times
20 a year -- I think those locations in winter were either
21 Gstaad or Fribourg and in summer, either St Tropez,
22 Cannes or Marbella.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, were you aware that James Andanson went down to
25 the South of France for the summer season each year and
3
1 photographed numerous famous people there?
2 A. Yes, we knew because when we were there at
3 Cap d'Antibes, he came and visited us.
4 Q. Turning to the character of James Andanson, in your
5 statement you describe him as "tres parleur",
6 "talkative"; is that right?
7 A. Yes, that is right.
8 Q. You also say that he told you that he was of Irish
9 nationality. Is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you ever discover that he was not in fact Irish?
12 A. When I did my statement.
13 Q. You also say that he was a successful photojournalist
14 who had worked his way up from the bottom.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now we heard yesterday from a police officer, who said
17 that James Andanson had claimed to be resented by other
18 fellow professionals. Were you ever aware of that?
19 A. I would not say so, but as I know this business quite
20 well, it is obvious that there was some jealousy around
21 him, but it was because he was so proud of his success.
22 Q. Now, turning to his work, I think James Andanson told
23 you that he had taken quite a number of important photos
24 over the years.
25 A. Yes.
4
1 Q. I think he told you that he had taken a particularly
2 famous photograph of the Duchess of York with
3 John Bryan, a financial manager.
4 A. Yes, with the children swimming in the swimming pool.
5 Q. I think he also told you that he had taken a photograph
6 of Prince Charles with his children's nanny.
7 A. Yes, when we were at the garage in St Moritz.
8 Q. I think he also told you that he had taken an iconic
9 photograph of a child in front of the Great Wall of
10 China.
11 A. Yes, he earned a lot of money with that, and thanks to
12 this money, he bought his farm.
13 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Madame Interpreter, it is very
14 difficult to hear everything that you are saying and
15 I notice that the word "inaudible" is coming up on
16 the transcript from time to time. It would be very
17 helpful if you would speak a little more slowly and try
18 to turn the volume up as well, please.
19 THE INTERPRETER: I am going to ask.
20 Can you hear better now?
21 MR HOUGH: It does seem to be a little louder now.
22 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: But it does involve you speaking
23 more slowly because you are running words together which
24 are difficult to pick up.
25 MR HOUGH: I understand that James Andanson's son was
5
1 a motor-racing driver on the Formula 3 circuit.
2 A. Yes. He was very proud of that.
3 Q. But as well as being proud of that, James Andanson,
4 I think, told you that his son's career was costing him,
5 James Andanson Senior, quite a lot of money to sponsor?
6 A. Yes, of course.
7 Q. One other question about Mr Andanson's family or family
8 life: were you ever aware of him owning a dog?
9 A. I knew he had cows.
10 Q. I do not think there has been any suggestion of a cow
11 coming into the picture.
12 MR HORWELL: Not yet.
13 MR HOUGH: Not yet.
14 James Andanson's vehicles: can you remember anything
15 about the make, model or colour of car that
16 James Andanson drove?
17 A. Not at all. I am not interested at all in car brands.
18 Q. Are you aware of whether James Andanson normally drove
19 a car, used a motorcycle or some other vehicle?
20 A. Motorcycle, but it depended.
21 Q. So do you mean sometimes car, sometimes motorcycle?
22 A. Yes, and when it was a motorcycle, it was a powerful
23 one; it was a huge one.
24 Q. Now, you also, I think, refer in your witness statement
25 to your son-in-law reminding you about James Andanson
6
1 coming to visit in a rather old Fiat Uno. Do you
2 remember that?
3 A. Yes, and I do not remember who told him that, but there
4 was a question of exchanging this old Fiat Uno with
5 a new one because it was too old and it had too
6 many kilometres.
7 Q. Do you recall Mr Andanson telling an anecdote about
8 the fact that he might be able to exchange this car if
9 it covered a certain distance?
10 A. It was the director of the Fiat brand who told him that,
11 "If you are still driving 100,000 kilometres more with
12 this old car, I will exchange it for a new one", as
13 a bet, as a challenge.
14 Q. Moving on to a later, significant event, I think
15 James Andanson visited you at your home in Bonnefontaine
16 in France, in the Christmas holidays of 1997.
17 A. It is not in France. It is in Switzerland.
18 Q. Okay. I stand corrected.
19 A. He was always coming, once during the summer-time and
20 once during the Christmas season.
21 Q. In your statement, you fix the conversation you talk
22 about in the Christmas holidays of 1997. Are you sure
23 about that timing?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Could it have been a different time of year or
7
1 a different year?
2 A. Maybe. I do not know.
3 Q. How long did James Andanson visit you for on the
4 occasion when you had the conversation?
5 A. Less than one day. He was arriving, he was taking his
6 photographs, he was having a drink. He did not like to
7 stay and remain for lunch and then he was leaving.
8 Q. What time of day did the conversation take place?
9 A. As usual, he was arriving, he was taking his pictures,
10 and then sometimes he could have lunch with us, which
11 was always at the beginning of the afternoon.
12 Q. So are you saying that the conversation took place in
13 the afternoon?
14 A. In the afternoon, yes.
15 Q. Which room of the house did the conversation take place
16 in and who was present for the conversation?
17 A. My husband and I, that is for sure, even if I sometimes
18 went out because I was picking up some ice cubes or some
19 snacks, but my daughter for sure and I think there was
20 also my son-in-law.
21 Q. Now, during that conversation you say in your statement
22 that James Andanson was "enthusiaste" and "volubile";
23 "enthusiastic" and "voluble"; is that how you remember
24 him?
25 A. Yes, all the time. Not only this day and for this
8
1 conversation, he was always like that.
2 Q. But is this right, that he was certainly not under
3 the influence of alcohol during that conversation?
4 A. Not at all. He was not drinking. He never drank.
5 Maybe one glass of champagne, but not more than one.
6 Q. Now, during this conversation, were you just sitting in
7 the room with him or were you coming in and out?
8 A. I was coming in and out.
9 Q. I think James Andanson told you some things about him
10 being in Paris on the night of the collision in which
11 the Princess of Wales died.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What precisely did he tell you?
14 A. He was present when Lady Diana got off the plane. Then
15 he followed them to the apartment and the Ritz Hotel.
16 He chased them, he tracked them and he had pictures, he
17 had taken pictures.
18 Q. In your statement to the police, you say that he
19 followed them from the airport on a motorbike. Is that
20 right?
21 A. Yes. Anyway, the way he described his chase, he could
22 not do so with an old Fiat Uno.
23 Q. Do you recall him saying that he had followed them on
24 a motorbike?
25 A. Yes.
9
1 Q. Now you say that he told you that he had cleverly waited
2 for a convoy to leave the Ritz, positioned himself in
3 another location and seen the car in which the Princess
4 and Dodi Al Fayed were preparing to leave.
5 A. Yes. It was not the one that the other photographers
6 were following.
7 Q. By that, do you mean the one at the front of the hotel?
8 A. Yes. There was one -- a first one in the front of the
9 hotel which left and there was another one, a second
10 one, and he was with this one, and he was always acting
11 like that. For the photograph with Prince Charles and
12 the nanny, he did the same thing. He waited for
13 the other photographers to leave and then he could shoot
14 them.
15 Q. When you use the word "shoot", I assume you mean take
16 photographs.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, take photographs.
18 MR HOUGH: Quite an important distinction there in
19 translation.
20 Now I understand from your statement that he told
21 you that he had followed the car with the Princess and
22 Dodi Al Fayed in on a motorbike.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You also are recorded as saying that he told you that he
25 witnessed the crash and took photographs of the crash
10
1 scene.
2 A. Yes, and that these photographs were kept in a safe.
3 Q. Did he say where the safe was?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Now you have already said that there was no reference to
6 him being in a Fiat Uno. Did he make any reference to
7 travelling to Paris by train and getting about Paris by
8 foot?
9 A. Not at all. He did not speak about that.
10 Q. Is it clear to you from what he said that he was in
11 Paris to take photographs?
12 A. Yes, for his job.
13 Q. Now you have said that you were coming in and out of the
14 room. Were you present for everything that
15 James Andanson said on this subject?
16 A. He certainly spoke when I was outside the room. He did
17 not stop talking because I went out.
18 Q. Can I ask you about the context of the conversation?
19 You say in your statement that he said all of this "de
20 maniere spontanee"; "spontaneously".
21 A. Yes, to please my husband, because he knew my husband
22 was a police novel writer, so it was to please him. But
23 I think that if he said very significant things when
24 I was out, my husband would have told me so afterwards.
25 Q. And he did not do so?
11
1 A. No, otherwise I would have put it in my statement.
2 Q. Now, your daughter recalls that James Andanson was, at
3 this time, trying to convince your husband to
4 participate in a book venture about Diana's death with
5 him, James Andanson. Do you recall that?
6 A. That is possible, but I am not aware. Anyway, he would
7 not have done so.
8 Q. Can I ask you to look at the statement that you have
9 made, if you have it in front of you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Could you please look at page 4. Do you have page 4
12 there?
13 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
14 MR HOUGH: Right at the bottom of the page, after you
15 describe the conversation, you say this:
16 "Peut etre se vantait-il, je l'ignore ..."
17 Does that mean --
18 THE INTERPRETER: The witness found it. "I still ignore
19 it."
20 MR HOUGH: Let's be careful with that word. Does that mean,
21 "Perhaps he was bragging. I do not know"?
22 A. I do not know. He was telling us things and we admitted
23 them because it was funny and -- I do not know. I mean,
24 I am not speaking about this topic being funny; only
25 other things -- other stories that he was giving us.
12
1 Q. Now could you turn over on to the next page please?
2 Do you see just over halfway down, a passage
3 beginning, "Je l'ai cru ..."
4 Can I read that out in English and ask you to read
5 the passage out in French?
6 In English it reads that you believed it at the
7 time, but today you say to yourself that it is a bit too
8 simple.
9 "I wonder about it, I do not know."
10 When you were in his company, that is
11 James Andanson's company:
12 "... it was a bit of a circus. I did not pay any
13 great attention to what he said. It remained very
14 superficial".
15 You say there that what James Andanson said seemed
16 "trop simple". Can you expand on what you mean by that?
17 A. What I meant is -- because I was being asked questions
18 by policemen, so I maybe thought better at that time
19 rather than when I was listening to Mr Andanson. When
20 I was listening to him, it was quite funny, but it is
21 true that because I had policemen pointing out things,
22 I realised that it was too simple to be true. It seemed
23 so easy. Everything seemed so easy with him. He was
24 hidden somewhere in a garage door and then he could take
25 a picture; he was hidden in a tree and he could take
13
1 a picture of the Duchess of York being kissed on her
2 toe. So it is true that it is because of the policemen
3 and all the environment I was in made me think that
4 it was too simple and too easy.
5 Q. In the description that you give of what he told you,
6 you say that he indicated that he was being very clever
7 in following the Princess and Dodi. Do you remember
8 that aspect?
9 A. Yes. He was always saying anyway that he was very
10 clever.
11 Q. When you expressed your doubts to the police about
12 Mr Andanson's account, were you even aware that he and
13 his wife had told the French police that he had been at
14 home on the night of the crash?
15 A. Not at all.
16 Q. Presumably you had not been aware that he had provided
17 documentary evidence to French police to support his
18 claim that he had been driving from Lignieres at
19 4 o'clock in the morning on the morning of the crash.
20 A. Not at all.
21 Q. So your view of the accuracy of his account was based
22 solely on what you knew of him and your assessment of
23 his demeanour during the conversation?
24 A. Yes, of course.
25 Q. Now, we know that James Andanson died in May 2000.
14
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. We know that after a lengthy investigation, the French
3 authorities concluded that his death was suicide.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you have any conversations with Mrs Andanson after
6 James Andanson's death?
7 A. Yes, first of all because I wanted to say sorry for her
8 and second because I wanted to tell her that I did not
9 believe at all that he could have committed suicide
10 because we had met with him a little before and he was
11 full of joy, full of life. He was very proud of his
12 son, he was being committed in his races and he had not
13 the profile of somebody who wants to commit suicide.
14 Q. How long before he committed suicide had you seen him?
15 A. I had seen him at Christmas, between December 1999 and
16 January 2000.
17 Q. Would you describe yourself as a close confidante of
18 James Andanson?
19 A. No.
20 Q. In the aftermath of his death, Mrs Andanson did not
21 believe that his death was suicide. Did she tell you
22 that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. She has given more recent accounts saying that she now
25 accepts that his death was suicide. Were you aware that
15
1 she had reconciled herself to that view?
2 A. Not at all.
3 MR HOUGH: Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
4 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield?
5 MR MANSFIELD: No thank you. No questions.
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Weekes?
7 MR WEEKES: No thank you. No questions.
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Horwell -- sorry, Mr Croxford?
9 MR CROXFORD: I am happy to be flattered, sir.
10 Questions from MR CROXFORD
11 MR CROXFORD: Mrs Dard, my name is Ian Croxford. I act for
12 the Ritz Hotel in Paris and I would like to ask you
13 a few questions please.
14 Your late husband was a very well-respected writer,
15 was he not?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. He was a sensible, careful and conscientious man, is
18 that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And he used the late Mr Andanson for many years as
21 a photographer to come and take photographs of him and,
22 on occasion, the family?
23 A. My husband did not use Mr Andanson. It was Mr Andanson
24 coming and visiting us to take photographs.
25 Q. Very well. And for a period --
16
1 A. But I mean these were never paid.
2 Q. This coming to take photographs twice or three times
3 a year went on for perhaps as long as 30 years; is that
4 right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. During that period, whilst he was not a friend, you
7 clearly had occasion on many occasions to speak with
8 James Andanson?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And he was a likeable --
11 A. He did a lot of speaking. He was the one who spoke.
12 Q. He was a likeable, enthusiastic and talkative man; is
13 that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You might even have believed he was Irish from his
16 talkative nature.
17 A. Because Irish people are talkative?
18 Q. They are. On this occasion, when he spoke about
19 the crash involving the Princess, I think it is right,
20 isn't it, that -- I just want to ask you about when
21 the conversation occurred. You have mentioned
22 a Mr Gillery who made a documentary film about your late
23 husband. That is right, isn't it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The work for that film was done in or around February of
17
1 1998. Is that right?
2 A. Yes, I think so.
3 Q. Is this right also, that you on occasions spoke to
4 Mr Gillery in about February 1998 and he, Gillery,
5 mentioned that your husband Frederic had told him about
6 this conversation with Andanson?
7 A. I think he did not really pay attention. I think
8 Mr Gillery did not really pay attention to that.
9 Q. I am not asking about the detail, but Gillery was aware
10 of what Andanson had said when he, Gillery, was doing
11 his work, wasn't he?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Mrs Dard, the probability therefore is that the
14 conversation that you and your husband had with
15 Andanson, since it must have taken place after
16 31st August 1997 and before February of 1998, when
17 Gillery was doing his work, the conversation with
18 Andanson was probably at Christmas 1997, wasn't it?
19 A. That is possible.
20 Q. Now about the conversation itself, is this right:
21 Andanson and your husband were going about the business
22 of Andanson taking his photographs?
23 A. The discussion was always after him taking photographs.
24 Q. So after the work of the photographs was done, there was
25 time for some chat, some conversation, between Andanson,
18
1 your husband and yourself?
2 A. That is correct.
3 Q. You use the word in translation, Andanson said something
4 "to please your husband". Does that mean that Andanson
5 was talking about things that he thought might be of
6 interest to your husband?
7 A. I would not say he would like to interest my husband,
8 not more than the other stories he was telling us
9 before.
10 Q. Of course, the events in Paris involving the death of
11 the Princess and the involvement of a number of
12 photographers who had been arrested were a matter of
13 some notoriety in France and indeed Switzerland at the
14 end of that year, 1997, weren't they?
15 A. Yes. It was a current topic at that time.
16 Q. It was not at all surprising, therefore, that the
17 current topic was being talked about in your home at the
18 end of 1997?
19 A. Yes, of course.
20 Q. You have told us about the conversation and I need not
21 go back through all of it, but just to set the scene:
22 I want to ask you about what Andanson said about
23 following the car in which the Princess and
24 Dodi Al Fayed left the Ritz. He said that he followed
25 them by motorbike, is that right?
19
1 A. Yes, all day long.
2 Q. And that he followed them by motorbike when they left
3 the Ritz that last time that evening?
4 A. Yes, but he was already there at the airport in
5 the morning.
6 Q. He told you that he witnessed the crash in the tunnel?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that he took photographs of the crash in the tunnel?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did he also tell you this: those photographs would cause
11 what he described as -- and forgive my French --
12 "un boum" when they were published?
13 A. Yes, and that is why they were put in a safe.
14 Q. And "un boum" is a French expression which might
15 translate as "a real furore"; is that correct?
16 A. Maybe not "furore", but rather outstanding.
17 Q. Is it onomatopoeic? Is it explosive? There would be
18 a bang?
19 A. Explosive, but not in furore.
20 Q. Thank you very much. Now, whatever the police may have
21 persuaded you later, you, at the time, believed Andanson
22 to be telling you the truth, didn't you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. However, when the police came to see you in 2006, did
25 they challenge or question what Andanson had told you?
20
1 A. It is because, sir, they told me, "Did you know that he
2 was not Irish?"
3 Q. I see. They began to challenge your fundamental
4 understanding about him and that led you to have some
5 doubts. Is that it?
6 A. Yes, indeed. I never asked questions before, but then
7 they challenged me because they explained me.
8 Q. But, in any event, you believed at the time, and indeed
9 your conversations with Mr Gillery about this
10 information were based upon your belief that it was
11 true?
12 A. Yes, of course.
13 Q. Now, finally this: there has been some suggestion that
14 Mr Andanson might have been asking your husband for
15 assistance in writing a book which would include this
16 information.
17 A. Maybe, but my husband would never have done it.
18 Q. I quite understand --
19 A. He was not featuring real events. He was using his
20 imagination.
21 Q. He was a novelist.
22 A. That is why I am telling you that.
23 Q. Whether or not he would have done it, your husband would
24 not have taken kindly to being asked to do a task on
25 the basis of having been misled, would he?
21
1 A. Yes, but he -- the problem and the issue was whether he
2 would have known that he would have been misled.
3 Q. Quite so. However, had he discovered that he had been
4 misled over something material, then he would have been
5 very upset, wouldn't he?
6 A. Disappointed, I would say.
7 MR CROXFORD: Yes. I am very grateful, Mrs Dard.
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Horwell?
9 Questions from MR HORWELL
10 MR HORWELL: Mrs Dard, good morning. My name is
11 Richard Horwell and I appear on behalf of the Chief of
12 London Police.
13 I only have a few questions to ask you, please.
14 From what you have told us of James Andanson, these
15 points emerge: first of all, he liked to tell stories
16 about himself?
17 A. He was very proud of himself; proud of his success.
18 Q. And liked to tell people stories about himself?
19 A. About him, about his success, about his life.
20 Q. He liked to make people laugh? Nothing wrong in that.
21 A. Yes. He liked to make people -- he liked to amaze
22 people.
23 Q. And this you have said yourself this morning, that he
24 was always saying that he was very clever.
25 A. Yes.
22
1 Q. Now, there was an occasion, you have told us, that he
2 told you a story about his having taken the famous
3 photograph of Sarah Ferguson kissing the toe of her then
4 boyfriend.
5 A. Yes, telling us that he had many others of that specific
6 event and that the other photographs were in his safe.
7 Q. Thank you, Mrs Dard. I am going to come to that in
8 a very short moment, but just to take a little time over
9 this account that James Andanson gave you. He told you
10 that he had taken that famous photograph?
11 A. He had the owner -- the lady, the owner of the house
12 being close to it to be able to stay hidden in a tree,
13 and he stayed for a long time being hidden in this tree
14 and he took the pictures.
15 Q. He told you not only that he had taken that photograph,
16 but he even told you about the circumstances in which he
17 had taken it; namely hiding up a tree in a neighbouring
18 property.
19 A. Yes, exactly.
20 Q. And not only that, he told you this detail, that before
21 he had taken the photograph, he had contacted local
22 estate agents to find out which properties had been
23 rented by VIPs; that is from your statement, Mrs Dard.
24 A. If I remember well, he even told us that while visiting
25 the local estate agents, one of the agencies told him
23
1 that it is because a property had been visited by
2 several big dark cars that they thought it would be this
3 one, this property.
4 Q. Not only did he tell you all of that, he also told you
5 that he had more compromising photographs of
6 Sarah Ferguson that he had taken?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that he had put those photographs in a safe?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Mrs Dard, did you in fact know that James Andanson had
11 not taken that photograph of Sarah Ferguson? It was
12 another photographer, unconnected to him.
13 A. It is what I understood from the policemen when I did my
14 deposition.
15 Q. The conversation that you have been asked about,
16 the conversation that probably was at Christmas-time in
17 1997, some three months after the Princess of Wales died
18 in the Alma Tunnel --
19 A. As far as Diana is concerned, but not as far as the
20 other conversations were concerned, such as
21 Sarah Ferguson and so on.
22 Q. Yes, I just want to ask you about this conversation
23 about the death of the Princess of Wales.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. He also told you on this occasion that he had
24
1 photographs which he was keeping in a safe?
2 A. Yes, absolutely.
3 Q. Mrs Dard, I am taking these details from your statement.
4 Did he also tell you that he was very clever in being
5 able to follow the Mercedes away from the Ritz?
6 A. Yes, of course, because the car in which the Princess
7 was was not at the same location as the other one.
8 Q. Exactly. He was telling you that he had been more
9 clever than the other photographers by being able to
10 follow the Mercedes.
11 A. In all the stories he was telling us, he was always more
12 clever than the others.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 Did he also add that he had been too smart for
15 the police and had been able to get away?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. When he was telling your husband about these events, he
18 did not mind who heard him speaking at all? You heard
19 him and your daughter also heard him?
20 A. No, he was just telling us, all of us. It was for
21 everybody being present.
22 Q. Exactly. Nothing secretive at all in the manner in
23 which he was speaking to your husband?
24 A. No, not at all.
25 MR HORWELL: Thank you.
25
1 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Hough?
2 Further questions from MR HOUGH
3 MR HOUGH: Just one main question: you have been asked about
4 the information which James Andanson told you about
5 the movements of the Princess and Dodi Al Fayed.
6 The information he gave you about their movements,
7 about where they went, that was all in the newspapers
8 and in the media, wasn't it?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR HOUGH: Thank you very much and thank you for coming.
11 Those are my questions.
12 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Madame Dard, we are very grateful
13 to you for coming and I am particularly grateful to you
14 for agreeing to change the time of your giving evidence.
15 This was due to another witness who kept wanting to
16 change the time that he was available and we are
17 grateful to you for coming this morning. I hope it has
18 not been too inconvenient.
19 A. No problem. Thank you.
20 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I call next Josephine Dard.
21 Are you able to hear us in Paris at the moment?
22 Thank you very much.
23 Josephine Dard, is it?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
25 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you.
26
1 MR HOUGH: Could the witness please make the oath or
2 affirmation?
3 MS JOSEPHINE DARD (affirmed)
4 Questions from MR HOUGH
5 (Evidence via videolink, interpreted)
6 MR HOUGH: I understand that you are the daughter of
7 Frederic and Francoise Dard.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. I think you gave a witness statement to the British and
10 French police in October of 2006.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. We have also heard that your mother's account --
13 A. In October 2007, I think. I cannot remember really.
14 Q. We have also heard that the --
15 A. 2006.
16 Q. Thank you. We have also heard that the account of your
17 mother and father had appeared in a book by
18 Francis Gillery called "Lady Died". Were you aware of
19 that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Have you ever given any interview to anybody other than
22 the police?
23 A. No.
24 Q. We are asking this question generally of witnesses.
25 Have you received or are you expecting a payment for
27
1 your account?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Now I think that your parents knew James Andanson for
4 most of your life. Is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You, I think, came to know him over the years.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Over the years, did you converse with James Andanson
9 about his work?
10 A. Yes, sometimes he would tell us about things about his
11 job.
12 Q. Did he tell you about photographs he had taken?
13 A. Relating to Lady Di or in general?
14 Q. Generally.
15 A. Yes, he told us, for example, that he had made
16 photographs of Mr Beregovoy.
17 Q. Mr Beregovoy, the former French Prime Minister?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did he also tell you that he had taken a particularly
20 famous photograph of the Duchess of York?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Did he also sometimes tell you about stories before they
23 came out in the press?
24 A. Yes, for example the story of Mazarine Pingeot, who was
25 the daughter of Francois Mitterrand, before it was
28
1 published in the press.
2 Q. In your statement that you made to the British and
3 French police, you recall James Andanson coming to visit
4 in a car which was equipped with modern equipment for
5 transmitting photographs.
6 A. Yes, he always had his computer with him and he used his
7 mobile phone as a modem to send photographs right away,
8 right after he had taken them, and that was quite
9 unusual at the time.
10 Q. Do you remember the type of car that he used to come in?
11 A. Yes. I remember once, at least once, he came with
12 a Fiat and he had done a lot of kilometres with it, and
13 as my ex-husband was Italian, we started talking about
14 it, and he said that if he does as much as
15 500,000 kilometres, he would get a new one.
16 Q. Are you able to say what year that was that he visited
17 in the Fiat Uno?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Now, your mother has told us about a conversation which
20 took place with Mr Andanson in the Christmas holidays of
21 1997. Do you remember that?
22 A. Yes, I remember James coming. I could not remember
23 exactly whether it was the Christmas of 1997 or 1998,
24 but now I remember that he came for Christmas in 1997,
25 yes.
29
1 Q. I think you were at the family home in Bonnefontaine
2 when he came to visit.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you remember what time of day the conversation took
5 place and which room of the house you were in?
6 A. It was in the afternoon, in the sitting room.
7 Q. Now we have heard from your mother that she was present
8 and your father was present and you were present and
9 your husband may have been present. Can you remember
10 any details about that?
11 A. I cannot remember whether my husband was there.
12 I remember my daughter was there. That is why I had to
13 go in and out of the room. I was not present at all
14 times.
15 Q. Now during the conversation, your mother has described
16 James Andanson's state as "enthusiastic" and "voluble",
17 but certainly not under the influence of alcohol. Can
18 you confirm that?
19 A. No, as a matter of fact he never drank alcohol. My
20 father very often would ask him to stay over for dinner
21 and he would offer him drinks, et cetera, but James said
22 that he did not want to because it was professional and
23 maybe -- if he did not have any work to do, then one day
24 maybe he would stay, but he never did.
25 Q. Now I think, during that conversation, Mr Andanson spoke
30
1 about being in Paris on the night of the collision when
2 the Princess of Wales died.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you remember what he told you about that?
5 A. Yes, I remember my father telling me about it because
6 I was not necessarily there at all times and did not
7 really pay attention to the conversation. But my father
8 told me afterwards that he had been in Paris at all
9 times when the Princess of Wales was in Paris and that
10 he had taken photographs and that they should write
11 a book together about it.
12 Q. In your statement, you say that he said that he had
13 taken pictures in the tunnel where the accident took
14 place. Is that something your father told you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now you also say in your statement that he,
17 James Andanson, had talked about a decoy car leaving
18 the Ritz, but him, James Andanson, choosing to wait
19 because he thought it was a trick. Do you remember
20 that?
21 A. Yes, I remember that.
22 Q. Do you remember telling the police that James Andanson
23 had said that he had trusted his instinct in working out
24 that it was a trick?
25 A. Yes.
31
1 Q. Did you get the impression that James Andanson was
2 claiming to be quite clever?
3 A. Cunning. Smart.
4 Q. Is this clear, that he was saying that he had been in
5 Paris to take photographs?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Is this also clear, that in this conversation
8 James Andanson was not being at all cagey or secretive
9 about what he was saying?
10 A. Yes, it was my feeling. He did not say "Don't repeat
11 that to anyone".
12 Q. Can I ask you to look at the statement that you made, if
13 you have that in front of you? Could you turn to
14 page 3, please? Do you see, about 10 to 15 lines down,
15 a sentence beginning, "Pour ma part ..."
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you read the next two sentences to yourself in
18 French while I read them out here in English?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. This is what you say after you discuss what
21 James Andanson had said. You say this:
22 "I did not ask any questions about this as
23 I wondered if what he was saying reflected the truth.
24 I mainly looked at my father to see what his reaction
25 was as I had some doubts. The situation recounted by
32
1 James seemed incredible to me."
2 So are you there saying that you thought James'
3 story was incredible at the time that you heard it?
4 A. Yes. I thought it sounded false. I had never been made
5 aware of such a thing before.
6 Q. Was that your assessment based on seeing and knowing
7 James Andanson generally?
8 A. Yes. His stories were always a bit extravagant, but at
9 the same time there had been the story about
10 Mazarine Pingeot, the daughter of Francois Mitterrand,
11 which revealed itself to be true. We did not really
12 know.
13 Q. Did you discuss this story with your father after it had
14 been told?
15 A. Not that much really because after James had left --
16 it was like reading a magazine, you close it and you
17 don't think about it anymore.
18 Q. Could you look back at page 3 of your statement, where
19 the word "reponse" appears in the middle of the page?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you read to yourself the four sentences which
22 begin "Je me suis ..." while I read them out here in
23 English?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You say this:
33
1 "I spoke to my father after James left. He said
2 that he preferred to make up his own stories to write.
3 My father was simply curious. At no stage did he have
4 any interest in following up James Andanson's
5 proposition."
6 We will come to James' proposition in a few moments.
7 Now, the French is that he preferred "... inventer
8 ses histoires and les ecrires". Does that mean that
9 your father preferred making up, that is to say
10 inventing, his own fictional stories to write?
11 A. Yes. He never based his novels on real stories.
12 Q. Now, later down the page, can you see the words, "Mon
13 pere considerait ..."?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you read those two sentences to yourself please?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now those are translated as:
18 "My father thought of James as a bit of a romantic
19 figure. He liked to hear him telling spicey stories,
20 but that is as far as it went."
21 Is that a summary of your father's general view of
22 James Andanson's accounts?
23 A. Yes, exactly.
24 Q. When this conversation took place, was James Andanson
25 making any proposition or proposal to your father for
34
1 a venture?
2 A. It was nothing really serious. He just said, "One day
3 it would be good if, you know, we could use
4 these photographs and you would could write the text
5 accompanying them", but that was it. There was no
6 contract involved.
7 Q. You say "It was nothing really serious". What makes you
8 say that about the suggestion that James was making?
9 A. Well, as far as James was concerned, I do not know, but
10 I know that my father would never work on such a thing.
11 Q. Did your father show any interest in participating in
12 this at all?
13 A. No. He was curious and liked to hear James Andanson's
14 stories, but he did not want to participate in a venture
15 with him.
16 Q. Did your father try to probe James' story with
17 questions?
18 A. No. He just listened to James really.
19 Q. When did you last see James Andanson before he died?
20 A. Oh, I do not remember exactly if it was that time. I do
21 not know that he took any other photographs of my father
22 afterwards.
23 Q. Did James Andanson ever tell you or any family members
24 that he had any involvement with the intelligence
25 services?
35
1 A. No.
2 MR HOUGH: Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
3 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I think we had better have
4 the break now. We have been going for an hour and
5 a half.
6 We are going to have a short break, if you wouldn't
7 mind, and then we will conclude your evidence.
8 (11.02 am)
9 (A short break)
10 (11.18 am)
11 (Jury present)
12 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield?
13 MR MANSFIELD: No questions, thank you.
14 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Weekes?
15 MR WEEKES: No, thank you, sir.
16 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Croxford?
17 MR CROXFORD: Just a couple of matters, sir.
18 Questions from MR CROXFORD
19 MR CROXFORD: Madame, my name is Ian Croxford. I am acting
20 for the Ritz Hotel. Just a couple of matters please.
21 Can you look, please, at page 3 in that witness
22 statement that Mr Hough took you to?
23 The sentence that he took you to beginning, "Mon
24 pere considerait ..." Can you find that please?
25 He decided to ask you about your father, but can
36
1 you look two sentences before that, something he did not
2 ask you about?
3 Is there a sentence there, just two sentences
4 before, it probably begins "Maintenant ..."? Did you
5 say this:
6 "Now, with hindsight, I cannot say whether
7 James Andanson was lying or telling the truth"?
8 Mr Interpreter, is that what it says?
9 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, it is.
10 MR CROXFORD: Madame, was that your position? You could not
11 tell one way or the other.
12 A. No.
13 Q. Now, you were asked a number of questions about what
14 your father told you about a conversation that day at
15 Christmas 1997 with Mr Andanson. Do you remember?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. You told us, of course, that you were coming in and
18 going out from time to time because you had things to do
19 with your daughter. Is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. But it is also right, isn't it, that you yourself heard
22 parts of this conversation?
23 A. Yes, it is true, yes.
24 Q. Just listening to what you heard, you heard this perhaps
25 less than serious inquiry about whether your father
37
1 wanted to work with James Andanson on a project;
2 correct?
3 A. Yes. Correct.
4 Q. And you heard that the project was to be about the death
5 of the Princess of Wales?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And that James, you heard, said that he had some
8 pictures?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And that James told your father, as you heard, that he,
11 James Andanson, was there in the tunnel at the time of
12 the crash?
13 A. Yes, that is what he said.
14 Q. And your understanding from what had been said and
15 the way that it had been said was that James Andanson
16 had taken those pictures?
17 A. Yes, but that is what we all assumed because he said
18 that he was there and he said that he had photographs.
19 Q. Finally this: would this be right, Madame, that your
20 uncertainty then -- I am not interested about now, since
21 you have been dealing with police officers -- your
22 uncertainty then, in 1997, was that in part because
23 there had been a lot of publicity about this crash but
24 the role of Mr Andanson, if any, had not been mentioned?
25 A. Yes.
38
1 Q. One of the things that Andanson was telling you was that
2 he had been cunning in getting the photographs; is that
3 right?
4 A. Yes, that he was smart enough to follow the right car.
5 Q. And cunning in getting away?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Lastly this: you had known Andanson, I think, since
8 the 1980s; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You had seen him in action as a photographer on many
11 occasions. That is right, isn't it?
12 A. Yes, when he came to take photographs of my father.
13 Q. Had you not also seen him in Gstaad during the winter
14 and the Cote d'Azur in the summer?
15 A. Yes, and also once in Venice, in Italy.
16 Q. Your impression and understanding of him was that he was
17 a very successful photographer; is that right?
18 A. Yes. That is right.
19 MR CROXFORD: Thank you very much, Madame.
20 MR HORWELL: No questions.
21 MR HOUGH: Nothing from me, sir.
22 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you very much, Madame.
23 That is all we ask of you. We are grateful to you for
24 coming and for assisting us. Thank you.
25 A. Thank you.
39
1 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I think the next witness is 1.30.
2 MR HOUGH: Yes, also by videolink.
3 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Hughes, the next witness is
4 Professor Baccino and he is not coming until 1.30. He
5 is not by any chance present, is he?
6 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: No, he is not.
7 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We will have to adjourn until
8 1.30. Sorry, members of the jury, but 1.30.
9 (11.27 am)
10 (The short adjournment)
11
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