4 March 2008 - Afternoon session
3 (1.20 pm)
4 (Jury present)
5 (Temporary) INSPECTOR PAUL CARPENTER (recalled)
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: You are still on oath from
7 previous occasions, Inspector.
8 A. Yes.
9 Questions from MR HILLIARD
10 MR HILLIARD: I think another document that you have had
11 prepared for us is a timeline summary that deals simply
12 with the movements of Henri Paul.
13 A. Yes, that is correct.
14 Q. So I am going to ask that that be distributed now. I am
15 going to suggest that it goes in as the last document in
16 section 3, which has quite a lot of timelines in it
17 already, but if we were all to put it there as the last
18 document in section 3, everyone will have it in the same
19 place.
20 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: One for me, please.
21 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, I do apologise.
22 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: You haven't missed anything.
23 MR HILLIARD: Inspector, I think it is right that a lot of
24 the material that has been put together into this
25 timeline and on the compilation video that we are going
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1 to watch, we have actually seen and read before.
2 A. Yes, sir. The vast majority was in the key events
3 video.
4 Q. But it is now all collected in one place, in a document
5 and on a DVD of its own?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Just so we can remind ourselves because it is some time
8 since we have looked at one of these, we have two sorts
9 of timings, haven't we, the initial one and then some in
10 brackets afterwards?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Just remind us.
13 A. The time in brackets is the time shown on the videotape
14 and the time before the bracket is the adjusted time to
15 bring it into line with the front revolving door.
16 Q. Because we have seen this all before, I am simply going
17 to ask that we press "Start" and we will play it. Can
18 you just help me with one topic? At the bottom of the
19 very first page, so that we can deal with it now and not
20 stop the video, this is a period of time, is this right,
21 when Henri Paul is out of sight? We see him for a while
22 and you have recorded what we can see of him at the
23 bottom of this page. If we turn over to the top of this
24 next page, it is really at 22.43 that you are making
25 further reference to him.
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What I want to follow is this: can it be said for
3 certain that he is not actually in any of the CCTV film
4 that covers, for example, the Place Vendome in that
5 period?
6 A. No, it cannot.
7 Q. Why not?
8 A. You appreciate, when you are looking at the video, it is
9 dark, and what you are looking at is basically a few
10 pixels. Although, in daytime, you can actually
11 recognise those pixels as Henri Paul, at night I need to
12 track him back to a position where I can definitively
13 say that is Henri Paul. So he walks out of the hotel,
14 and marrying the two bits of footage together, I can
15 track him and, you know, from time to time, I have
16 tracked him out of the hotel.
17 The problem occurs when he walks out of frame at
18 that side, and then maybe or maybe not walks back into
19 frame. I have nothing to refer to him, so I cannot say,
20 "Yes, I know that was Henri Paul and I have followed him
21 all the way from the hotel on the various cameras to
22 the point where he walks back". As soon as he walks out
23 of shot, I have no reference point anymore, so I can no
24 longer say that I know that that is Henri Paul.
25 So rather than say that I think that is Henri Paul,
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1 I will just say I cannot track him. So he may be there,
2 he may not be there, but I would rather say he was not
3 than guess that he was.
4 Q. But at the top of our page 3, you are confident at
5 22.43 -- that is the adjusted corrected time -- that
6 then you are seeing him again?
7 A. Yes, up to that point.
8 MR HILLIARD: If you take a seat, we will just play it.
9 A. Will you just ask me questions as we go along or --
10 MR HILLIARD: Hardly ever, but ...
11 A. Point taken. (CCTV footage played)
12 MR HILLIARD: We are at the bottom of page 3 aren't we,
13 Mr Carpenter, going over to the top of page 4?
14 A. Yes, that is correct.
15 Q. We are now at the bottom of page 5, going over to
16 page 6, aren't we?
17 A. Yes, sir. To add a bit of interest, it is while he is
18 doing this that Dodi comes out and speaks to
19 the bodyguards.
20 Q. Have we finished a little bit early?
21 It is probably time for the break.
22 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes, well how much more have
23 we got to go?
24 MR HILLIARD: It is Mr Mansfield really. We are in his
25 hands.
102
1 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We don't actually need a break
2 because the shorthand writers haven't written anything
3 for the last hour.
4 MR HILLIARD: All right.
5 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, I can do it now and then that will be --
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Let's press on, shall we?
7 Questions from MR MANSFIELD
8 MR MANSFIELD: Mr Carpenter, as the learned Coroner
9 requested some days ago, I did alert you to a number of
10 issues and questions. We can probably deal with those
11 now. I am sorry it has taken little time to watch
12 the DVD. We can do it in chronological order.
13 If we look at page 2, which is the start of the
14 timeline, is it right to say that it is your, if I can
15 put this way, considered view that the occasion on which
16 Rocher informs Henri Paul about Dodi's suggestion that
17 there should be a car leaving from the rear, but not who
18 is to drive it, is when Rocher is descending the stairs
19 at 22.30?
20 A. Yes, sir. That best matches the description of what
21 Rocher says.
22 Q. So it is bearing that in mind that that is when that
23 information is imparted to Henri Paul.
24 He then spends, as we can see on the video and on
25 your timeline, the next few minutes, if that is when it
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1 happened -- and I am not suggesting that you are wrong
2 about that -- that over the next few minutes, about
3 four, he is in the company of Rocher for quite a bit
4 time there, isn't he?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. He is back and forth. Then he leaves the hotel for one
7 of his five visits to Place Vendome.
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. This is the one in which, some many months ago now, you
10 identified an absence from view of about eight minutes.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In that context, if I can just ask you to turn to page 5
13 of the plans that we have. Sorry, I think they are
14 there. The jury have them in jury bundle 1. I make it
15 perfectly plain, if we turn to page 5, I think this is
16 probably the best plan which shows the Ritz Hotel as
17 the red oblong in the north-west corner of
18 Place Vendome.
19 Now I am not suggesting there is evidence showing
20 him doing this, but I do want to ask you -- I think you
21 have been kind enough to investigate where the nearest
22 telephone kiosks are. I think there are quite a number.
23 I am not asking you to go through all of them. Where is
24 the nearest one?
25 A. The nearest one is in the Rue de la Paix. It is north
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1 of the Place Vendome. It is about three minutes' walk
2 away on the right-hand side.
3 Q. I am not asking you about the others. Others can if
4 they wish.
5 I am now on page 3 of the timeline, where he is seen
6 to return and to re-enter the hotel.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I am not going to rehearse what is on these pages
9 because the jury has just seen it, but can we go on to
10 page 5? On that page -- so we are now an hour on -- at
11 23.30 he is handed a telephone by Tendil.
12 Now, just to correlate this, again, is it your view
13 that that is the call that he takes from M Roulet who
14 has gone off duty earlier but is ringing in and hasn't
15 managed to get through?
16 A. That is my understanding, sir.
17 Q. Yes. So that is how it can be cross-referenced at that
18 point. This is a page also I want to pause a moment for
19 because, further down on this page, 23.42 -- I am using
20 the left-hand times, not the one in brackets, just for
21 convenience -- the jury will have seen and you have just
22 seen that he is in the foyer on his own and he is pacing
23 around.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. This is just before a sequence of events that are in the
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1 key timeline, but not in this, where you have headed it
2 "The bodyguards walk the final route".
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So if anyone wants to correlate it, that is what they
5 are doing or beginning to do -- that is going out of the
6 rear of the hotel -- while he is pacing up and down in
7 the foyer.
8 Can I just pause there? Is it right to say,
9 therefore, that between the time that Rocher has spoken
10 to Henri Paul at 22.30 on page 2 and the time when
11 the bodyguards do the final walk-through, as you have
12 put it on the other one -- that is 23.42 -- Henri Paul
13 has not spoken to Dodi at all, has he?
14 A. No, not at all.
15 Q. We can cover it in this way. He is not seen going to
16 the door of the suite to speak to him. As far as you
17 can ascertain, because you have looked at times when he
18 uses the phone -- and I think there are only three of
19 those -- he is not seen to be telephoning an internal
20 phone to the suite either?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Right. In addition to, therefore, Henri Paul not
23 speaking to Dodi before the final walk-through,
24 the bodyguards have not spoken to Dodi either, have
25 they?
106
1 A. No.
2 Q. Thank you for your help. I just want to move it on from
3 that period. So eventually, at the bottom of that page,
4 he goes for his fourth visit -- that is Henri Paul -- to
5 Place Vendome, the others doing the walk-through.
6 Then he is in Place Vendome -- that is Henri Paul --
7 at the top of page 6, whilst the dummy run takes place,
8 as you have written there.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So then you mentioned -- and I am on now page 6.
11 I think it is one of the few observations that you made
12 as it was going through. In fact, Henri Paul -- do we
13 see, at 00.00.16, Henri Paul descends the main
14 staircase?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. It is not on here, but it is on the bodyguard's
17 timeline. It is after this, in other words after he has
18 descended the main staircase, that there is the very
19 short 28-second appearance of Dodi at the door when
20 the bodyguards are there.
21 A. That is right.
22 Q. So you can insert the time -- I have taken it off
23 the other timeline -- it is 00.00.22 for 28 seconds.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. If we go on, he does his fifth visit and the rest of it
107
1 we have just seen.
2 Now, I want to stand back for a moment in relation
3 to that. The actual departure from the suite with
4 Henri Paul is on page 7 at 00.00.06. Now, in terms of
5 a bracket of time, that is between 10.30 when Henri Paul
6 has been given the information about a car from the rear
7 but not who is going to drive it, and the time we see
8 him going down the corridor to leave, in fact, there has
9 been no occasion on which he, Henri Paul, has spoken to
10 Dodi.
11 A. No.
12 Q. In fact, in that time -- I do not know whether I can do
13 it this way; I think I have mentioned these times to
14 you -- if you add up the amount of time that has passed
15 between 10.30 and the time that they depart, which is
16 the 6 minutes past midnight, that is 96 minutes.
17 In that period of time, the vast majority of time
18 that is spent by Henri Paul is in fact with
19 the bodyguards, isn't it?
20 A. The majority of the time.
21 Q. I will give you the time to add it up. He spends
22 25 minutes in the bar after 10.30 with the bodyguards
23 and then there are four visits to the suite where
24 the bodyguards are.
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. If you put all that time together, there is 46 minutes
2 he spends with the bodyguards, not with Dodi, as
3 compared to the 28 seconds.
4 A. That is right, yes.
5 Q. Now, can I just ask you this? I did not, I am afraid,
6 alert to you this question and if you cannot answer it,
7 it is my fault.
8 When he first arrived, which is on page 2 -- when he
9 first arrives in this sequence, returns to the hotel at
10 10 o'clock in the evening, it is clear, is it not, that
11 he is wearing exactly the same clothes that he was
12 wearing when he went off duty?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR MANSFIELD: Suit, blue shirt and that tie. Thank you
15 very much indeed.
16 MR WEEKES: No, thank you, sir.
17 MR CROXFORD: No, thank you, sir.
18 MR HORWELL: No, thank you, sir.
19 MR HILLIARD: Thank you very much.
20 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you very much indeed,
21 Mr Carpenter.
22 That is all I think for the afternoon, is that
23 right?
24 MR HILLIARD: That is all for this afternoon.
25 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I have just been given a note and
109
1 I would like everybody's help as far as tomorrow is
2 concerned.
3 We have scheduled for tomorrow Laurent Sola first
4 and then Mr Greene. I think the information I have is
5 that Mr Sola is not likely to take very long. We did
6 have Mr Carpenter for tomorrow but we have brought him
7 forward for today. As far as Mr Greene is concerned, he
8 is delayed in South Africa, thinks he can make it for
9 3 o'clock, but there is a possibility of delay.
10 It is Sola who is delayed and Mr Greene is scheduled
11 I think for 2 o'clock? Does anybody have the Lextranet
12 print-out?
13 It is Mr Greene who won't take very long and Sola
14 who is in South Africa.
15 MR HILLIARD: The suggestion is that they could both go to
16 Thursday.
17 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: That is what I am wondering.
18 It is either that we start at 2 o'clock tomorrow with
19 Mr Greene and hope that Sola comes, which seems to me to
20 be not the best option, or we put them both off until
21 Thursday and try to fit everybody in on Thursday.
22 MR HILLIARD: They will certainly all fit in on Thursday, if
23 they can all come on Thursday.
24 MR WEEKES: Sir, from that point of view, we also anticipate
25 that Professor Jamieson, who is currently scheduled to
110
1 take the whole of the afternoon on Thursday, will be
2 a very brief witness.
3 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: He covers the same territory as
4 Greene?
5 MR WEEKES: Indeed.
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: So it is a good idea to have them
7 together anyway, because they might be able to agree a
8 bit more, if they are sitting there waiting.
9 MR HILLIARD: I think they are almost agreed.
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Croxford, any views?
11 MR CROXFORD: I have nothing for Greene, sir, and five or
12 ten minutes for Mr Sola.
13 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I think the practical course is
14 not to sit tomorrow, members of the jury. We have a lot
15 we can get on with. I am sure you have, outside
16 the case. We can resume on Thursday morning and that
17 will be at 10 o'clock.
18 10 o'clock Thursday.
19 (3.10 pm)
20 (The hearing was adjourned until 10.00 am
21 on Thursday, 6th March 2008)
22
23
24
25
111
1
2 INDEX
3
4 MR DARRYN PAUL LYONS (sworn) ..................... 1
5
6 Questions from MR HILLIARD ................ 1
7
8 Questions from MR CROXFORD ................ 19
9
10 Questions from MR HORWELL ................. 24
11
12 PC JOSEPH KENNILS (sworn) ....................... 28
13
14 Questions from MR HILLIARD ................ 28
15
16 MR DAVID MEYNELL (sworn) ......................... 33
17
18 Questions from MR HOUGH ................... 33
19
20 Questions from MR MANSFIELD ............... 58
21
22 Questions from MR HORWELL ................. 90
23
24 Statement of (Temporary) INSPECTOR ............... 97
25 PAUL CARPENTER (read)
112
1
2 (Temporary) INSPECTOR PAUL CARPENTER ............. 99
3 (recalled)
4
5 Questions from MR HILLIARD ................ 99
6
7 Questions from MR MANSFIELD ............... 103
8
9
113
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