4 February 2008 - Afternoon session
21 (1.30 pm)
22 (Jury present)
23 MR HOUGH: Good afternoon, Mr Monot.
24 I think we had got to the stage where I was asking
25 you about a conversation that you had had with
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1 the father of Henri Paul.
2 I think, in your statement, you indicated that he
3 told you that a young woman called Miss Badia had come
4 to the flat to return a key.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I think your colleague subsequently interviewed
7 Miss Badia and found her to be a recent friend of
8 Henri Paul's.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now I think also while you were at the flat, a M Melo,
11 M Dominique Melo, rather than his wife, arrived at
12 the flat.
13 A. Yes, a close friend of Henri Paul's.
14 Q. Now I would like to ask you about a few reports you made
15 later in relation to other inquiries. I think you made
16 a report on 8th September relating to the mobile phones
17 which Henri Paul had.
18 A. Yes, I mentioned in that report the three mobile
19 telephones that Henri Paul had, with the three numbers.
20 Q. According to that report, two of them were Ericsson
21 mobile telephones belonging to the Ritz.
22 A. Yes, we talked about them earlier. We found them on the
23 occasion of the search at the flat.
24 Q. Yes, indeed. And the last one was a Motorola Startac
25 recovered from M Henri Paul in the crashed vehicle; is
58
1 that right?
2 A. Yes, that is correct.
3 Q. According to your report, the Motorola Startac had
4 the same mobile phone number as one of the Ritz Ericsson
5 phones.
6 A. I do not remember, but as they were professional phones,
7 it is possible to have the same telephone number for two
8 phones.
9 Q. As we have heard, your colleague obtained details of
10 calls made and received from both of the numbers.
11 A. Yes, correct.
12 Q. Now as we have also heard, you made a search of
13 Henri Paul's office at the Ritz Hotel, and that was on
14 9th September I think.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You were saying earlier that you could not remember
17 precisely what medicaments were found, but according to
18 your report, there was a pack of Imodium in the drawer
19 of his desk.
20 A. Yes, I have mentioned the names of the medications
21 I found in the report.
22 Q. I think the only other two I have to mention are first
23 of all you found an empty pack of Aotal tablets in
24 the waste-paper basket.
25 A. Yes.
59
1 Q. I think you also found a pack of tablets called
2 "Doliprane" in a cupboard in the office.
3 A. Yes, if it is in the report. Yes.
4 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I think you said, before
5 the midday adjournment, that the search on 9th September
6 of the office was the second search. Is this correct or
7 was it the first search that took place at the office on
8 that day?
9 A. It was the second search. The first one had been made
10 on 3rd September by colleagues, and also the searched
11 cars, and seized the footage of the CCTV videos.
12 Q. I think, in fact, you searched M Paul's car on
13 9th September on that visit; is that right?
14 A. No, I think that was done first by one of my colleagues,
15 Mr Sanderson.
16 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Was the office in use between
17 3rd September and 9th September, with other people
18 moving in and out?
19 A. I do not remember, but I would not think so. But it is
20 the Ritz Hotel that kept the keys.
21 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you.
22 MR HOUGH: I think whenever you searched the car, you did
23 not find anything of interest or importance in it.
24 A. I cannot confirm because I did not do that search.
25 Q. Now, I think, on 10th September, you went to the Ritz
60
1 and collected a bar bill covering M Henri Paul's time in
2 the bar and collected that from M Roulet.
3 A. Yes, correct.
4 Q. You have already said that you also attended on
5 a separate occasion and got the CCTV film from the Ritz.
6 A. We -- actually it was on 11th September, we tried to see
7 whether the footage of the CCTV of all of the
8 Vendome Square could be used and it was not the case, so
9 nothing was seized.
10 Q. But you did get footage, I think, from the Ritz Hotel
11 ultimately.
12 A. Yes, that was on 3rd September, when we did the first
13 search.
14 MR HOUGH: Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
15 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield?
16 Questions from MR MANSFIELD
17 MR MANSFIELD: Good afternoon. My name is
18 Michael Mansfield.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 Q. I represent Mohamed Al Fayed. I am sorry about the time
21 lapse and asking you questions that go back ten years,
22 but there are one or two. First of all, your visit to
23 Henri Paul's apartment on 3rd September. I want to ask
24 you about that first of all.
25 First of all, the Casio electronic organiser that
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1 you were given by M and Mme Paul, was that capable of
2 being interrogated in order to discover what was on it?
3 A. Yes, it was done at a later stage. There is a report
4 that mentions directly all of the entries in
5 the directory that could be sent on that device.
6 Q. Thank you. The next item was a number of business cards
7 and pieces of paper with handwritten addresses and
8 private telephone numbers on the living room table.
9 A. Yes. That was seized and attached to the report and
10 appendixes.
11 Q. Two questions: why were these documents taken?
12 A. To possibly gain contact later on with people that
13 Henri Paul knew, to maybe hear them within the framework
14 of the investigation.
15 Q. Do you know whether, in fact, any of the named people in
16 the handwriting were contacted?
17 A. I do not know who was in charge of the investigation
18 afterwards.
19 Q. I just want to ask you about one of the sheets. Could
20 we have [D969] back again please? This is one of the
21 pieces of paper.
22 This is a long time ago and I am sorry to be asking
23 you, but can you help as to whether any of the figures
24 identified in the column and the telephone number
25 underneath have been investigated?
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1 A. I could not tell you.
2 Q. Right. I am going to move on.
3 Whilst you were at the search on this day,
4 3rd September 1997, two Ericsson mobile phones were
5 found. Did you discover the telephone numbers for those
6 two phones while you were on the premises?
7 A. Yes. I think either Mr Paul senior gave us the numbers
8 or they were written on the phones themselves or we had
9 them rung.
10 Q. Did Mr Paul say there was another mobile phone but he
11 did not remember the number?
12 A. Yes he mentioned that phone.
13 Q. I know it is a long time ago. He has given evidence
14 today and he has told us about a Nokia phone. Did he
15 tell you then that the other phone was a Nokia?
16 A. I would have put it down in writing if he had told me
17 about the make of the phone.
18 Q. Still on mobile phones, I want to take this carefully.
19 When you were asked questions a minute ago, you said you
20 remembered three mobile telephones with three numbers.
21 A. Or two numbers, because I understand that there was
22 the same phone number for two phones.
23 Q. Well, I want to come to that.
24 A Motorola phone, where was that found, a Motorola
25 phone?
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1 A. I did not find it when I made the search. I think
2 it was on Henri Paul when he was involved in the crash.
3 Q. Could we have [INQ0000057] on the screen please?
4 Could we have the "Other matters (preservation of
5 evidence)" paragraph highlighted please?
6 This is part of a statement by Jean-Claude Mules,
7 the police major. I am sure you know him.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. On this page, he has already listed property in relation
10 to Henri Paul and there is no telephone listed in
11 Henri Paul's property. Then we come to this page and
12 you will see there one Motorola Startac mobile phone
13 with an identification code number. Then it says:
14 "All of this property appears to belong to
15 the Princess of Wales."
16 Do you see that?
17 A. I could not tell you because I was not present on the
18 day of the accident and I did not participate in
19 the investigations that were made then.
20 Q. You see, it was put to you that the Motorola was
21 recovered from Henri Paul, and I am treading very
22 carefully here about where this phone was originally
23 found.
24 A. I cannot answer precisely.
25 Q. You will see also that there is no telephone number
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1 attached to this phone on that list.
2 I want to ask you this: how do you know that that
3 telephone identified there had the same number as one of
4 the two telephones found in the flat?
5 A. I cannot specify. It must have been the Ritz who
6 communicated the phone numbers at which Mr Henri Paul
7 could be contacted.
8 Q. I appreciate that. Would it be right to say that you
9 are not in a position to say whether that Motorola is
10 the same one as the Motorola which you say had the same
11 number as one of the ones in the flat?
12 A. Yes, as a matter of fact -- well, in the flat, it was
13 only the Ericssons that were found.
14 Q. Yes, I appreciate. Did you yourself do any
15 investigations with regard to a Motorola --
16 A. No, I did not take part in the searches concerning
17 telephone conversations later on.
18 Q. -- or even where a Motorola had come from in the first
19 place, whether it was found in the crash or not?
20 A. It was specified to me that it was found in the vehicle,
21 that it came from the vehicle.
22 Q. Yes, if the one found in the vehicle had been provided
23 by the Ritz, then you would have given it back to
24 the Ritz, would you not?
25 A. I do not know what happened to that telephone. I do not
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1 know whether it was kept or whether it was given back to
2 the Ritz.
3 Q. I want to go to the landline please, in the apartment.
4 That landline had an answer machine; do you remember?
5 A. Yes, it was a fax machine, answering machine and
6 telephone (inaudible).
7 Q. First of all, were there any faxes waiting to be
8 collected?
9 A. I do not remember, but I think that I would have
10 mentioned it in my report if I had found any faxes left
11 over.
12 Q. What about the answering machine itself, were there any
13 messages?
14 A. No, clearly there were no messages otherwise I would
15 have mentioned it too. But Mr Paul's parents could have
16 listened to the messages before we got there to do
17 the search.
18 Q. Well I want to ask you about this. Did you ask to
19 listen to the answer machine yourself?
20 A. No, I do not remember that.
21 Q. Did you ask the Pauls what messages were on the
22 answer machine?
23 A. No. We just checked that there were -- there was no
24 indication of a message on the answering machine.
25 Q. Are you sure? We have heard that there were at least
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1 four messages on the machine.
2 A. I cannot answer. I do not remember.
3 Q. Does it also follow that you did not take the tape of
4 the answer machine?
5 A. Yes, it is true, we did not seize the tape because,
6 according to us, there were no messages. But
7 the landline was investigated later on and we got to
8 know what were the calls made and received on that line.
9 Q. Yes, that is the point. I will put it to you: at least
10 one specified call from a Mr Morere, who says he called
11 twice, is not on the record of interrogation of
12 the landline phone. Do you understand?
13 A. I -- no, because I did not participate in
14 the investigations relating to that matter.
15 Q. All right.
16 Now one final matter: we have heard from two
17 witnesses that, as part of Henri Paul's work, he would
18 have contact with the security services of foreign
19 states whose personnel might be visiting Paris and
20 the Ritz.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That is not surprising, is it?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you look amongst any of his documentation for
25 the purposes of seeing whether any of the security
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1 service personnel of foreign states appeared anywhere?
2 A. No, I did not participate either in the investigations
3 relating to the names appearing on the list.
4 Q. Should these questions be addressed to Major Mules?
5 A. I can tell you that the folder comprises 2,000 sheets.
6 I do not know who was responsible for what.
7 MR MANSFIELD: Thank you.
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Keen?
9 Questions from MR KEEN
10 MR KEEN: Good afternoon, Mr Monot.
11 A. Good afternoon.
12 Q. My name is Richard Keen and I appear as counsel for
13 the parents of the late Henri Paul.
14 We are, of course, concerned with a crash that
15 occurred in the early hours of 31st August 1997. You
16 appreciate that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. On 1st September 1997, the Public Prosecutor's Office in
19 Paris announced or disclosed that a blood/alcohol
20 analysis of the late Henri Paul had allegedly shown him
21 to be more than three times the legal drink driving
22 limit and had suggested that the crash was due to
23 a drunk driver driving too fast. You recall that?
24 A. It is possible. I do not remember exactly when that was
25 published.
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1 Q. Well you may take it that we have heard evidence that
2 it was on 1st September 1997, Mr Monot. That being
3 the case, can you explain to us why you were sent to
4 search the apartment of Henri Paul on
5 3rd September 1997? What was the purpose of this search
6 of his apartment?
7 A. I do not remember precisely, but I think it was to try
8 to find people who we could contact here to try to
9 understand what had been going on before the crash.
10 Q. Are you saying, then, that you were simply looking at
11 his apartment to identify people that Henri Paul knew?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Well you went to his apartment on 1st September to
14 assist a police major of the Brigade Criminelle called
15 Major Sanderson, did you not?
16 A. Yes, a commander at the Criminal Brigade. He is
17 deceased since then.
18 Q. When you arrived at the apartment, according to your
19 report, you explained the purpose of your visit to
20 Henri Paul's father, who was present at the apartment.
21 Is that true?
22 A. Yes. It is an obligation that one has, according to
23 the procedure.
24 Q. And what you record in your statement is that you
25 carried out -- and I quote -- "a detailed search of the
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1 three-roomed flat". Is that what you did?
2 A. Yes, we looked in a few rooms to try to find information
3 concerning people that Henri Paul knew.
4 Q. You did not just do that, Mr Monot; you actually carried
5 out what you describe in your own statement as
6 a "detailed search of the flat". Is that not correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR KEEN: I wonder, sir, if we might have up on the screen,
9 for the jury, [INQ0042534 - read out in court].
10 For the interpreter, this shows Mr Monot's statement
11 translated into English, but once I have read a passage,
12 perhaps he could translate it back into French for
13 Mr Monot.
14 THE INTERPRETER: I will try. It may become interesting,
15 because I cannot read anything from here.
16 MR KEEN: It may be that we can also put up the French copy
17 in a moment. About halfway down the page, we have you
18 recording, Mr Monot:
19 "Continuing the search, we noted a large quantity of
20 packs of non-alcoholic drinks, some in the dustbin, and
21 in the refrigerator a bottle of white Martini
22 three-quarters empty and a bottle of champagne."
23 Now, it may be that it will be easier for you if you
24 have the French on the screen.
25 It is page 2 of the French statement, Mr Foley, if
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1 that could be put up.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we have it.
3 MR KEEN: Could I ask the interpreter, do you
4 have the passage beginning, "Poursuivant notre
5 perquisition ..."?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we do.
7 MR KEEN: If you could just read that passage, Mr Monot.
8 It is apparent, is it not, Mr Monot, that you were
9 not just looking for contact names and numbers, you were
10 in pursuance of a detailed search of the property,
11 looking in the dustbin, in the refrigerator and
12 elsewhere for property?
13 A. Well, we put down in writing what we saw in
14 the apartment. First of all, we described the place
15 rapidly and then what we find when we look around
16 the place. Maybe the reason why we noted the fact that
17 there were alcoholic and non-alcoholic beverages was
18 because the crash related to that possibility of too
19 high a rate of alcohol in the blood.
20 Q. Exactly. After all, Mr Monot, people do not keep their
21 address book in the refrigerator, do they?
22 A. That is a matter of -- of course, yes.
23 Q. The point is that in the context of this search, you
24 were looking out for evidence of alcoholic drinks in
25 the apartment, weren't you?
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1 A. I do not remember receiving that specific instruction
2 when I went to the apartment, but as the search was
3 related to a car crash, we certainly put down in writing
4 what the bottles that we could see right away. Maybe
5 the refrigerator was open or maybe the presence of the
6 bottles in the refrigerator was indicated to us by
7 Mr Henri Paul's father.
8 Q. You did not just look in the refrigerator, Mr Monot.
9 You looked in the dustbin, according to your statement.
10 Is that not correct?
11 A. Yes, I noted -- the dustbin was very visible. I noted
12 what was in it.
13 Q. In the course of this detailed search, you went to
14 the trouble of even recording that the bottle of white
15 Martini was three-quarters empty. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now given that you had attended at the apartment on
18 3rd September with Commander Sanderson to carry out this
19 detailed search, why, if it was thought necessary to
20 have a second detailed search, did you and
21 Commander Sanderson not return to the apartment for that
22 purpose?
23 A. Because I did not choose where I would go. It was
24 the head office of the Criminal Brigade who would
25 appoint officers to go and search this or that place.
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1 I was appointed to go and search the office at
2 the Ritz Hotel.
3 Q. When you say you were appointed to go and search
4 the office at the Ritz Hotel, that is the search that
5 you were instructed to conduct on 9th September, is it
6 not?
7 A. Yes, that was on 9th September. Also there were some
8 colleagues of mine there, who were in charge of meeting
9 the staff at the Ritz Hotel, and there were different
10 reports drafted on that occasion.
11 Q. On 9th September, while you are being sent to the
12 Ritz Hotel, two other officers from the Brigade
13 Criminelle appear to have returned to the apartment of
14 the late Henri Paul. Is that right?
15 A. Yes, two officers who were members of the group in
16 charge of the investigations. They were in charge of
17 those investigations since the very beginning.
18 Q. Were you not involved in the investigation from the very
19 beginning as well?
20 A. No, I was not on duty that day.
21 Q. It would appear from the statements we have, Mr Monot,
22 that the second detailed search, is it -- two are
23 referred to -- was carried out on the basis of the same
24 Letter Rogatory as the one that you relied upon for
25 the first search. Can you explain that?
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1 A. Yes, that is the case.
2 Q. When you conducted your search on 3rd September at
3 the apartment of the late Henri Paul, you did so in
4 the knowledge that you were investigating a car crash in
5 which the driver was alleged to have been drunk and to
6 have been an alcoholic?
7 A. I don't have a specific memory concerning the first
8 search. I remember the second search of the flat, and
9 the Ritz Hotel was ordered to try to find evidence of
10 the kind that is bottles or medications, but not
11 the first one.
12 Q. Well, can I suggest, Mr Monot, that any search on
13 9th September was intended in one way or another to try
14 to bolster or support the allegation already made, that
15 Henri Paul was an alcoholic.
16 A. I do not remember that it was for certain the first
17 search of the night(?). I remember that it was a matter
18 that was in our minds on the occasion of the second
19 search on 9th September, following the blood analysis,
20 but I do not think it was the case with the first one.
21 Q. With respect, Mr Monot, the result of the blood analysis
22 was made public two days before your first search on
23 3rd September, was it not?
24 A. Maybe. I do not remember.
25 Q. On 3rd September, you recalled having carried out
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1 a detailed search of a flat consisting of a lounge
2 leading into a kitchen/diner, with two bedrooms, during
3 which you saw a bottle of champagne and a quarter of
4 a bottle of Martini and failed to notice bottles of red
5 wine, champagne, creme de cassis, Ricard, Suze, port,
6 beer, vodka, pineau, Suze, bourbon, apparently contained
7 in various shelves and cupboards throughout the flat.
8 Is that your position?
9 A. It is something that I have to acknowledge. Once again
10 the first search was done in a tense atmosphere in
11 the presence of the parents of Henri Paul, and it is, as
12 a matter of fact, the proof that we were not looking
13 specifically for bottles of alcohol, but it was not
14 the first aim of that search.
15 Q. Mr Monot, were you not a little surprised to discover
16 how much alcohol you were supposed to have missed during
17 your search on 3rd September?
18 A. Well, it was surprising that we missed such a quantity
19 of alcohol that would be -- that looked to have been
20 present in different pieces of furniture, but maybe
21 it is due to the fact that it was not our first aim,
22 that it was not the first thing that we were looking
23 for.
24 Q. Maybe it is due to the fact that it was not there on
25 3rd September. Is that not a possibility as well,
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1 Mr Monot?
2 A. It is a possibility.
3 MR KEEN: No further questions, sir.
4 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Croxford?
5 MR CROXFORD: No, thank you sir.
6 Questions from MR MACLEOD
7 MR MACLEOD: M Monot, my name is Duncan Macleod and I ask
8 questions on behalf of the Commissioner of Police for
9 London.
10 Now, Mr Monot, you have told us in your evidence, in
11 response to questions from Mr Keen, that when you
12 searched Henri Paul's premises on 3rd September, you
13 were not specifically looking for alcohol.
14 A. It is correct.
15 Q. Now we have heard evidence from M Claude Garrec, who was
16 M Paul's best friend. I would like to put some of his
17 evidence to you for your comment please.
18 It is to be found in the transcript, Day 62,
19 page 140, line 22 to page 141, line 9.
20 Mr Garrec was asked about the same two searches that
21 Mr Keen has just been asking you about. He was asked
22 the following questions and gave the following answers:
23 "Question: Now, the first search on 3rd September
24 revealed a bottle of Martini and a bottle of champagne
25 in the fridge."
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1 And Mr Garrec replied:
2 "That's possible."
3 Then he was asked this question:
4 "Question: Then, in the second search, there were
5 recorded a large number of other bottles of drink in the
6 lobby, both on a table and on some cupboard shelving."
7 Then he answers this:
8 "Answer: I don't share this feeling. The number of
9 bottles were totally normal."
10 Then he was asked this question:
11 "No, I am not suggesting that they weren't. Do you
12 remember yourself whether Henri Paul had a number of
13 bottles of aperitifs on a table in the lobby?"
14 The answer was:
15 "Yes, I remember. It was a table that you could
16 open up and the bottles were inside."
17 Now, when you carried out your search on
18 3rd September, did you open up a table to reveal what
19 was inside, a hidden drinks container?
20 A. I have no memory of that.
21 Q. When you searched the property on 3rd September in
22 the presence of Henri Paul's parents, did you search in
23 all the kitchen cupboards?
24 A. I do not think so. We looked at what was visible right
25 away, but for the fridge. I do not remember why
77
1 we looked in the fridge.
2 Q. Thank you. Can I move on to a separate matter?
3 On 10th September, I think it is right that you were
4 the officer who obtained the sales receipt from
5 Claude Roulet at the Hotel Ritz which showed that
6 Henri Paul had been drinking two Ricards on the night.
7 A. Yes, correct.
8 Q. That sales slip showed the drinks that Henri Paul had
9 drunk and also what the bodyguards had eaten and drunk.
10 A. Well, it only indicates what was served at the table
11 where the three people were sitting.
12 Q. Yes, that is right. Is it right that M Roulet told you
13 that the sales slip was registered to room 102,
14 the Imperial Suite, in his name --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- and that M Roulet also told you that that was done to
17 preserve the anonymity of the occupants of the
18 Imperial Suite?
19 A. Correct.
20 MR MACLEOD: Sir, that is all I would ask.
21 MR HOUGH: No further questions from me. Thank you very
22 much, M Monot.
23 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Gigou next?
24 MR HOUGH: M Gigou.
25 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you very much, M Monot.
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1 That is all we require. We are very grateful to you.
2 THE INTERPRETER: We are ready, sir.
3 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you.
4 MR HOUGH: Could the witness please make the oath or
5 affirmation?
6 MR ERIC GIGOU (sworn)
7 (Evidence via videolink, interpreted)
8 Questions from MR HOUGH
9 MR HOUGH: Are you Police Commissaire Eric Gigou?
10 A. Yes, that is true.
11 Q. My name is Jonathan Hough and I ask questions first on
12 behalf of the Coroner here. I think in 1997 you were
13 a lieutenant in the Brigade Criminelle and played
14 a major part in the investigations into the deaths of
15 the Princess of Wales, Dodi Al Fayed and Henri Paul.
16 A. I was the police lieutenant and I was part of this
17 investigation.
18 Q. You made a number of statements and reports and took
19 a number of statements from witnesses.
20 A. Yes, that is true.
21 Q. One of your reports has been read as agreed evidence and
22 that related to CCTV and traffic cameras, so we do not
23 need to ask you about that one.
24 A. I worked on that. I do not remember exactly, but
25 I remember that I worked on that.
79
1 Q. I would like to ask you first about a search you
2 undertook of Henri Paul's flat on the Rue des Petits
3 Champs in Paris on 9th September 1997.
4 A. Okay.
5 Q. You made a statement about that. Do you have that
6 statement with you or have you seen it recently?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. I think, in that search, you were assisted by
9 Claude Garrec and Laurence Pujol, who were friends of
10 Henri Paul.
11 A. Due to the French legal procedure, when you do a search,
12 either you have the tenant, the person who is staying in
13 the flat, or, in that case, you need to have two
14 witnesses who are not depending upon us.
15 Q. I think Claude Garrec let you into the flat with a key
16 he had, and that Claude Garrec and Laurence Pujol were
17 the only people there when you and your colleague went.
18 A. It is at our request that these two people were there,
19 present in the apartment, otherwise we would not have
20 been able to do so.
21 Q. In your statement, you say that in the flat there were
22 packing cases which had been filled or were in
23 the process of being filled and that you were told that
24 Henri Paul's parents had started to vacate
25 the apartment.
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1 A. Because Mr Paul was not the owner of the flat, he was
2 just renting the flat, and so the parents had to give
3 the flat back to the owner.
4 Q. You record in your statement that, during your search,
5 you found some shelving in the lobby with various
6 bottles of drink on it.
7 A. I found bottles in several places and in several
8 locations in the flat.
9 Q. Yes. I think you found some in shelving in the lobby,
10 some in or on a table in the lobby, some in the fridge
11 and some in a kitchen cupboard.
12 A. Yes, that is true.
13 Q. Now, dealing with what was in the lobby, I think that
14 the shelving was in a cupboard. Is that right?
15 A. I do not remember exactly.
16 Q. Well, you describe it as "cupboard shelving" in your
17 statement.
18 A. Yes, maybe so. If I wrote it down, it means that it was
19 the truth at that time.
20 Q. As to the other place where you found drink in
21 the lobby, you say that was a table serving as a bar.
22 Is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now that has been described by M Garrec as a piece of
25 furniture which you would have to open up to find
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1 the bottles inside; is that right?
2 A. I do not remember, but what is probable is that if this
3 table had to be opened up to find out what was inside,
4 we certainly did it because we were proceeding to
5 search.
6 Q. Now, just running quickly through what you say you found
7 in the lobby, you say you found, in the shelving: creme
8 de cassis, Ricard, Suze, port, beer, red wine and
9 champagne. Is that right?
10 A. If it is written, that is true.
11 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Is there a list anywhere of
12 exactly what was found?
13 MR HOUGH: It is in the statement, which is why I am running
14 through it in this way.
15 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I see that it is in
16 the statement. It is in fairly general terms in
17 the statement. What I was anxious to discover is
18 whether there is any list of X bottles, Y bottles and
19 Z bottles and what they were.
20 MR HOUGH: I will be corrected by my learned friends, but
21 I think this is the most detailed description. I see
22 nodding.
23 MR KEEN: I think, strictly speaking, the French statement
24 is in fact, if one looks carefully, an official report
25 of the search which had been signed off by police
82
1 officers, amongst others. So the list actually in
2 the French statement is the official report of
3 the search.
4 MR HOUGH: Yes, I think that is right.
5 Now, also in your report or statement, you refer to
6 finding, in or on the table in the lobby, Martini,
7 vodka, pineau, Suze and fortified wine. You also refer
8 in your report to finding, in the kitchen cupboard, open
9 bottles of Ricard, bourbon, Martini and a drink called
10 "Four Roses".
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You do not mention in this any cans of Coca Cola Lite.
13 A. I was not thinking about soft drinks.
14 Q. So where you refer to soda in the report, that is
15 a reference to seeing cans of soft drinks?
16 A. I did not accurately detail the non-alcoholic drinks
17 which were present.
18 Q. Now I think also, in the course of your search, you
19 looked in the medicine cupboard in the bathroom. Is
20 that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you found a variety of medications?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The only one I need to ask you about at this stage is --
25 I think you record finding a medicament called
83
1 "Doliprane Jeune Enfant".
2 A. Yes, indeed.
3 Q. Is that a medication for children?
4 A. As it is written on the box.
5 Q. I do not know if you were aware, but there was
6 a previous search of this apartment on
7 3rd September 1997, six days before your search.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. On that occasion, the only alcohol that was noted by
10 the officers was the alcohol in the fridge.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Can you give any explanation for the fact that those
13 officers on that previous occasion did not note
14 the alcohol that you noted?
15 A. I do not have an explanation to give with respect to
16 what my colleagues did or not, but what maybe you should
17 look for is what they were there for exactly, what they
18 were looking for when they were there; what was their
19 assignment being there.
20 Q. We have heard from one of them about that.
21 Now, can I move on to a new topic, which is the
22 inquiries the French police made regarding white
23 Fiat Unos.
24 I think you are aware that it has been agreed by all
25 experts involved that the Mercedes involved in the crash
84
1 must have been in contact with a white Fiat Uno.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That, I think, was because of paint residue and bumper
4 residue on the offside front of the Mercedes.
5 A. And also debris from a back light.
6 Q. Yes. Now, is this right, that the French police put
7 very considerable effort into trying to find a Fiat Uno?
8 A. Yes, of course.
9 Q. You were involved in those efforts, weren't you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, were you aware that the witnesses at the scene,
12 called the Dauzonnes, said that they believed that
13 the registration of the Uno included the number "92" or
14 "78" for the departement?
15 A. Yes, of course, because I took their statements.
16 Q. Those department numbers indicate two areas immediately
17 to the west of Paris, Hauts de Seine and Yvelines, don't
18 they?
19 A. Yes, the Hauts de Seine, 92, being closer to Paris
20 than 78.
21 Q. I think, in October 1997, the Brigade Criminelle began
22 an operation to check Fiat Unos in those areas.
23 A. I do not remember if it was in October, but I remember
24 that we looked for the Fiat Unos in these two areas.
25 Q. In the report on these inquiries, the French police
85
1 indicated that over 4,600 Fiat Unos were reviewed.
2 A. That is possible. I do not remember this figure
3 precisely.
4 Q. But do you remember that they were looking for a paint
5 match with a type of paint that had been identified?
6 A. Yes, of course.
7 Q. Is this right, that a huge spreadsheet was drawn up and
8 numerous interviews were conducted over an operation
9 lasting many months?
10 A. We had, if I remember well, the reference of
11 the painting of this car, and if I remember well, it
12 was -- the reference and the code were bianco
13 (inaudible) plus figures or letters following -- for
14 that sort of match. Then we also looked at the years
15 when these Fiat Unos were put on the market.
16 Q. Despite all those lengthy investigations, the French
17 police were unable to identify a car positively as
18 the white Fiat Uno involved in this incident?
19 A. Unfortunately.
20 Q. In the course of those inquiries, I think you were
21 involved in investigations into someone called
22 James Andanson.
23 A. No, I never met with Mr Andanson. I had only
24 a statement by his son. I seized his Fiat Uno. He was
25 the owner of a white Fiat Uno, and the only contact
86
1 I had with Mr Andanson was a phone call.
2 Q. But you were involved in the investigations into
3 Mr Andanson at various points, weren't you?
4 A. Yes, of course.
5 Q. Now, is this right, that from an early stage in your
6 investigations it was widely reported in the press that
7 the police were looking for a white Fiat Uno?
8 A. This information has certainly been mentioned in
9 the press and media, but it is true that if you call for
10 all the owners of the white Fiat Unos in two areas,
11 which are Hauts de Seine and Yvelines, then you cannot
12 keep this information being secret.
13 Q. I am sure that is right.
14 Mr Andanson, is this right, was a photojournalist
15 who had, along with many other photojournalists, spent
16 the summer season in the South of France in 1997?
17 A. It is certainly what we record from his statement.
18 Q. Are you also aware that he had been featured in
19 a television programme before the crash which showed him
20 with a white Fiat Uno he owned?
21 A. I do not remember specifically this edition.
22 Q. Were you aware that Mr Al Fayed's investigators,
23 including a gentleman called Michel Kerbois, received
24 information from sources that James Andanson owned
25 a white Fiat Uno?
87
1 A. Yes, I heard about that.
2 Q. I think they brought that information to the attention
3 of the police and they reported it publicly.
4 A. This information was given to the police due to
5 the investigation, but I didn't pay attention whether
6 this information became public or not.
7 Q. In the document which records the start of the inquiries
8 into Mr Andanson, it is recorded that information about
9 him was received from a British liaison officer. Are
10 you aware of that?
11 A. I do not remember.
12 Q. Is this right on the whole: the information that you had
13 was that somebody called James Andanson owned a white
14 Fiat Uno?
15 A. I received the information through the investigation,
16 the current investigation, and then it was up to us to
17 check if this information was true and accurate or not.
18 But let me recall you that we were inquiring on white
19 Fiat Unos having a registered number of 92 or 78, which
20 were departments close to Paris, whereas Mr Andanson was
21 living outside Paris, so it was the wrong number.
22 Q. At the start of your investigations, did anybody tell
23 you that James Andanson had been in Paris on the night
24 of the collision?
25 A. I do not remember specifically, but if we had this
88
1 information, then we would have performed an inquiry on
2 that very person, as we did for anybody being in Paris
3 that very day or connected to this tragedy.
4 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Hough, when you reach
5 a convenient break, we will have to have a mid-afternoon
6 break.
7 MR HOUGH: One more question.
8 If you had received that information, would you have
9 recorded it in the French dossier, the judicial dossier?
10 A. Obviously.
11 MR HOUGH: Thank you very much. We are going to take
12 a ten-minute break now.
13 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We have a break now, M Gigou.
14 We do that every session halfway through and then we
15 will continue with your evidence. Thank you.
16 (3.00 pm)
17 (A short break)
18 (3.15 pm)
19 (Jury present)
20 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Are you ready to continue? Thank
21 you.
22 MR HOUGH: Thank you. We had got to the point of your
23 involvement in the James Andanson investigation.
24 I think you telephoned Mr Andanson on
25 11th February 1998 to make inquiries about his Fiat Uno.
89
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. According to your report on that conversation, he told
3 you that he no longer owned the Fiat and that he had
4 sold it to a BMW garage in June of 1997.
5 A. I remember that at first, when I got him on the phone,
6 he refused to attend this investigation, but we found
7 all these issues when he completed the investigation.
8 Q. In that first call, he told you that he did not have
9 the Uno anymore and that he had sold it in June of 1997?
10 A. If I wrote it in the report, it means that he told me
11 that at the time, but I do not remember.
12 Q. It also appears, in your report, that he told you that
13 the car had been registered in Cher, not in either of
14 the departments that you were focusing on.
15 A. Yes, that is true.
16 Q. You also recorded that he had told you that on the day
17 of the crash, he had been in St Tropez.
18 A. Once again, if I wrote it down, it means that he told me
19 that.
20 Q. Then I think after that, in the conversation, you asked
21 him to come to your office to be interviewed, and at
22 that point he refused.
23 A. I remember what he told me, but it was not so
24 significant because what I remember is that he refused
25 to come, and when you want to have clear evidence, then
90
1 the person has to sign these statements, which he could
2 not do by phone.
3 Q. I think Mr Andanson was summoned for an interview by
4 Major Mules on the following day, 12th February.
5 A. Yes, obviously we summoned him for the day after, and at
6 the same time I was going to see him at his house in
7 case he would refuse to come to the summons.
8 Q. Can I set out for you what he told Major Mules,
9 according to Major Mules' report? First of all, he told
10 Major Mules that he was at his home in Lignieres, about
11 180 miles south of Paris, on the day of the crash.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. He told Major Mules that he had gone to bed at 10.30 pm
14 on the Saturday evening. He told Major Mules that he
15 had then left home at 3.45 on the Sunday morning and had
16 driven to Orly Airport, near Paris. He said that he had
17 then caught a plane to Corsica in order to interview
18 a singer called Gilbert Becaud.
19 A. I remember him talking about that. He mentioned that.
20 Q. He also told Major Mules that he took a toll road at
21 a cost of 102 francs, exiting at a toll booth not far
22 from Orly Airport.
23 A. Maybe.
24 Q. He told Major Mules that he had caught a 7.20 am plane
25 for Corsica. As regards his Fiat Uno, he told
91
1 Major Mules that he had acquired it from a BMW dealer
2 called M Langlois in March of 1988. He said that he had
3 used it heavily up to 1995 and had then bought the BMW.
4 A. Maybe, yes.
5 Q. He had then passed the Fiat Uno to his mother-in-law who
6 had used it for a year. The Fiat Uno had been left
7 parked in a shed at his home until October 1997. Then,
8 in late October 1997, he said that the Fiat Uno had been
9 given back to M Langlois in part-exchange for a Fiat
10 Punto car for his son.
11 The reason for summarising all of that, apart from
12 setting out the investigation, is just to put to you two
13 things about what M Andanson said to you.
14 M Andanson had told you that he had been in
15 St Tropez on the night of the crash, whereas he told
16 Major Mules that he had been at home in Lignieres, quite
17 a long way from St Tropez. Were you aware of that?
18 A. I do not remember, but what I remember -- what he told
19 me was not official because it was on the phone, and
20 what I remember is that he did not want to come and give
21 a statement to us.
22 And what I also remember is that the day he spoke to
23 Major Mules, I was at his own house, (inaudible) from
24 Paris, so I could not compare what he told me on the
25 phone the day before and what he stated to Major Mules.
92
1 Q. He told you that he had sold the car in June of 1997
2 before the crash, whereas he told Major Mules that he
3 had sold it after the crash. Were you aware of that?
4 A. I did not remember these differences in between the two
5 statements, knowing that -- and I recall that because
6 it is significant -- that the phone conversation had no
7 official value.
8 Q. I think then, on 12th February, in addition, a colleague
9 of yours called Fabrice Cuvillier visited
10 James Andanson's agency and collected some documents
11 from him. Were you aware of that having taken place?
12 A. I do not specifically remember.
13 Q. I would like to show up on the screen some of the
14 documents that he provided to your team so that you can
15 help to explain them if you can.
16 Can we have first of all [INQ0009094]? Can
17 we please focus in on the third entry, three-quarters of
18 the way down the page? Now, this is an English
19 translation of a toll road receipt which Mr Andanson
20 provided to your investigating colleagues.
21 If we look at that, do we see the words "Entry:
22 Bourges"?
23 Is Bourges an area where one can enter the motorway
24 near Mr Andanson's home?
25 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We don't have a map, do we, that
93
1 shows the entries and exits from the motorways and
2 Lignieres?
3 MR HOUGH: I am sure we can get one.
4 Sorry, was there an answer to that question?
5 THE INTERPRETER: The answer was I do not know.
6 MR HOUGH: Do you see above "Exit", "La Folie-B/Paris"? Are
7 you aware that that is the area of a toll booth about
8 30 miles from Orly Airport, in Paris?
9 A. I know the names. The names of the location are not
10 totally unknown to me. I know these exits, but I do not
11 know, especially at that time, if they were entries or
12 exits for the motorway.
13 Q. This records a cost of 102 francs for the journey on the
14 toll road.
15 Do we also see a credit card number ending 1300 for
16 the bank card used? Could we then move up the page,
17 please, to the earlier entries? These, I think, are two
18 references to journeys on 30th August 1997, if we see
19 under "Date".
20 Do you see that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you see that one of these refers to a journey from
23 Bourges to Vierzon East and the other to a journey back,
24 in the other direction?
25 A. Yes.
94
1 Q. Do these also show that the cost of each journey on the
2 toll road was 11 francs?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, after this, I think your colleague, Mr Gisbert,
5 contacted the toll company to check its information, did
6 he not?
7 A. I do not know. I do not remember.
8 Q. Do you have with you the French dossier section relating
9 to Mr Andanson?
10 A. I have part of it, which was given to me a few minutes
11 ago.
12 Q. Could you look at D4573?
13 THE INTERPRETER: It is at 4573?
14 MR HOUGH: Yes, 4573.
15 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, I do not have it.
16 MR HOUGH: Could we have up on the screen [INQ0009075]? Can
17 we maximise the bottom third of the screen please?
18 Now, this is an English translation of a record by
19 your colleague, M Gisbert. This records the information
20 he received from the company Cofiroute, which runs
21 the toll roads.
22 Do you see that that shows, under item 1, a journey
23 from Vierzon East to Bourges on 30th August, departing
24 from the exit at 04.55?
25 MR CROXFORD: I wonder if my friend could put it right: the
95
1 journey began at Bourges and the exit was at
2 Vierzon East at five minutes to five in the morning.
3 MR HOUGH: Yes. I am grateful for that correction.
4 Do you see, under journey number 1, an entry at
5 Bourges, an exit at Vierzon East, exiting at 4.55 in
6 the morning?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Then do you see, under number 2, a reference to
9 information about a journey going in the opposite
10 direction, from Vierzon East to Bourges, arriving at
11 8 minutes past five in the morning?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Then, under number 3, do you see information received
14 about a journey on 31st August 1997? Does that show
15 a journey entering at Bourges and exiting at
16 La Folie-B/Paris --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- arriving at the La Folie-B toll barrier at 05.48 in
19 the morning?
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. So this information, provided by Mr Andanson on toll
22 road tickets, indicated to your colleagues, did it not,
23 that he had had a journey on 31st August 1997 from
24 Bourges to Paris early in the morning?
25 A. Certainly.
96
1 Q. Was that information you were aware of, involved as you
2 were in the investigations?
3 A. I do not remember specifically these such things and
4 these toll tickets. You have to remember that this
5 inquiry, this investigation, involved many people and
6 not only Mr Andanson.
7 Q. I appreciate that, but because there were many officers,
8 to make sense of it we have to deal with everything
9 through one officer. Do you understand?
10 A. You have to understand that it is difficult for me to
11 answer you on a particular inquiry which has been made
12 by my colleagues ten years ago.
13 Q. I understand that.
14 Can I now show you another document which was
15 provided to your colleagues by Mr Andanson? This is
16 a document which is for the scanner.
17 Do you see there two plane tickets, one Air France
18 and one TAT Airlines.
19 A. Yes, I can see them.
20 Q. If you look at the one at the top, do you see it is
21 a ticket bearing the name "James Andanson"?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you see that it refers to a journey from Paris Orly
24 to Figari Airport in Corsica?
25 A. Yes.
97
1 Q. Do you see that the total cost on the ticket is 967?
2 I do apologise. I have to put this right again.
3 This first ticket is the return journey from
4 Bastia Airport in Corsica to Paris. Do you see
5 the total cost is 967 francs?
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: It is the next day,
7 1st September.
8 MR HOUGH: Yes, it is.
9 Do you see that it records 1st September 1997
10 towards the top in the middle?
11 Now, if we go down the page to the next ticket,
12 please, do you see there a second ticket in the name of
13 James Andanson?
14 Do you see that that is dated 31st August 1997 and
15 do you see that the cost shown is 986 francs?
16 Now, one of your colleagues recorded -- it may be
17 difficult to see it on the sheet -- that this ticket was
18 paid for at 6.23 in the morning. If we move over to
19 the receipt, we might be able to see it.
20 Do you see the number "6.23" under the words "Carte
21 bancaire"?
22 A. Yes, I can see it clearly.
23 Q. So do we have there a plane ticket indicating that
24 a ticket was bought in the name of James Andanson at
25 6.23 on the morning of 31st August in Paris?
98
1 Sorry, was there an answer to that question?
2 A. Yes. Yes, I can see.
3 Q. Can we now move to a third document which was provided
4 by Mr Andanson? This is [INQ0009100].
5 Can we maximise the top half of the page, please?
6 Now, this is the English translation of an invoice
7 from the rental company Hertz, provided by Mr Andanson.
8 This, I think, shows a hire car collected at
9 Figari Airport in Corsica at 9.20 am on Sunday
10 31st August. If you see the number in the centre of
11 this section, you may see the number "9.20", and then,
12 almost underneath, the word "Figari" to indicate
13 collection from Figari Airport in Corsica, and then
14 a further entry immediately underneath, "Date/time of
15 return", with the time of 6.51 on 1st September. Then
16 there is a total cost of 400.89 francs in the bottom
17 right.
18 Were you aware that your colleagues had been
19 provided with a Hertz invoice indicating that
20 Mr Andanson had had a rental car in Corsica between
21 the morning of 31st August and the morning of
22 1st September?
23 A. I did not specifically remember this fact.
24 Q. Now, moving on to one final document provided by
25 Mr Andanson. This is an expenses claim he provided.
99
1 This is [INQ0009099].
2 Can we maximise the section beginning "Date",
3 "Place", "Reports", et cetera?
4 This was an expenses claim for Mr Andanson's agency,
5 SIPA, which refers to plane tickets from Paris to
6 Figari, from Bastia to Paris, toll roads and a rental
7 car from Hertz. Do you see that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Again, were you aware that this had been provided to
10 your colleagues or is that something which you were not
11 specifically informed about?
12 A. Same answer: I don't remember.
13 Q. Can we next turn to Mr Andanson's Fiat Uno? I think you
14 visited the garage of M Langlois, to whom Mr Andanson
15 said he had sold the Fiat Uno.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I think you made a report on that, reporting that you
18 visited on 12th February at 11.00 am.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I think you had with you three experts from the Criminal
21 Research Institute to assess the vehicle and have it
22 removed.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you summarise the condition of the car when you
25 found it?
100
1 A. It was parked behind the garage. It was a white
2 Fiat Uno. According to my recollection, it was quite
3 old. We did some checkings to see if we could match
4 the code that we had been given by the experts regarding
5 the painting.
6 Q. When you found it, according to your report, it was in
7 a very poor condition and had 325,000 kilometres on the
8 odometer. Do you recall that?
9 A. I cannot remember ten years later how many kilometres
10 had this vehicle, but if I wrote that figure in my
11 report, it was the truth.
12 Q. You also recorded that the registration number was
13 the area number 18, referring to the area of Cher.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you recall that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now did M Langlois later give you registration documents
18 in relation to this car?
19 A. I do not remember. If I wrote it down on a statement,
20 it means that M Langlois did so, but honestly, I do not
21 remember.
22 Q. D4580 in the dossier, there appears a certificate of
23 sale signed by Mr Andanson and dated 4th November 1997.
24 Do you remember obtaining that certificate of sale?
25 A. No, I do not remember and I do not have the documents
101
1 with me anyway, so it is even more difficult for me to
2 recollect anything.
3 Q. Well, can I perhaps show you the English translation of
4 the certificate of sale? It is [INQ0009068].
5 Can you maximise the last paragraph?
6 Do you see there a certificate of sale referring to
7 James Andanson, certifying that the vehicle was sold to
8 the "above dealer", who was M Langlois, on
9 4th November 1997.
10 A. I can see a translation of it here.
11 Q. Now, in your reports, you record that M Langlois told
12 you that Mr Al Fayed's inquiry agent, Mr Kerbois, had
13 visited his garage.
14 A. Is it a report that I wrote personally or is it
15 a statement made by another police officer?
16 Q. This is a report you made.
17 A. So it is a report? It is not a statement?
18 Q. I am sorry. It was a statement made to M Gisbert, but
19 at the time that you were at M Langlois's premises.
20 Were you aware that he had told M Gisbert that
21 information?
22 A. What information exactly are you referring to?
23 Q. The information that M Kerbois had attended M Langlois's
24 garage.
25 A. Yes, I remember.
102
1 Q. Did you subsequently make investigations into
2 a suggestion by Mr Andanson that his car had been
3 damaged in 1995 and later repaired?
4 A. When I was in the garage at that time, what I focused on
5 was to check this car and to seize it so that it could
6 have an expert looking at it.
7 Q. You prepared a report dated 18th February saying that
8 you got in touch with a garage called Berry Carrosserie.
9 Do you recall that?
10 A. Yes, that is right, but it should have been quite far
11 away.
12 Q. In that report, you record that the garage did not have
13 records going back far enough to check whether
14 Mr Andanson's car had been repaired there. Is that
15 right?
16 A. Yes, I remember.
17 Q. Now, as you have said, on the same day,
18 13th February 1998, the experts who went with you to the
19 garage analysed the paint on Mr Andanson's Uno and made
20 other checks on that car. Do you remember that?
21 A. They checked the paint and maybe, probably, the back
22 lights, but anyway, in order for the experts to work in
23 proper conditions, I preferred to seize the car.
24 Q. Did they, as a result of their investigations, rule out
25 Mr Andanson's Fiat Uno as having been involved in
103
1 the collision that you were investigating?
2 A. The expert decided that Mr Andanson's car was not
3 the one bumping into or being bumped by the Mercedes in
4 the Pont de l'Alma car crash.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 Now, moving on from Mr Andanson, I think you were
7 also involved in interviewing another Fiat Uno owner
8 called Le Van Thanh.
9 A. I was there when we took him and I searched on him, but
10 I was not there as a physical presence when he did his
11 deposition.
12 Q. You were involved in visiting his premises on
13 13th November 1997?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can I show you a photograph of Mr Le Van Thanh so that
16 you can identify him? It is [INQ0019914].
17 Does this look like the man that you saw?
18 A. Yes, he looks like him, but it is a bad picture. It is
19 a poor picture.
20 Q. Did you, in the course of your investigations at his
21 property, find a Fiat Uno?
22 A. There was one that was red, and if I remember well,
23 we sent it to the experts, close to Paris.
24 Q. Did the experts also analyse the paint on that car?
25 A. I think they probably did it, but according to the
104
1 criminal procedure in France, the police lieutenants and
2 officers are not the recipients of the experts' reports.
3 These reports are sent directly by the experts to
4 the instructing magistrate, and these magistrates can
5 allow us to have knowledge of these reports and will
6 tell us what to do afterwards.
7 If I remember well, we had to give this car back to
8 the owner, which means that the experts did not reach
9 the proper conclusion.
10 Q. When the answer is translated as "the experts did not
11 reach the proper conclusion", do you mean that
12 the experts ruled this vehicle out?
13 A. Yes. Exactly.
14 MR CROXFORD: Sir, may I, I hope, helpfully mention that, as
15 between the three interested parties on this side, it
16 has been agreed that in respect of the substance of
17 Mr Andanson and this forensic examination, I will deal
18 with that. I have indicated to my friend, Mr Hough,
19 before he took this witness, that I do not anticipate
20 that the scientific evidence will be controversial and
21 I hope that we can agree upon a truncated form of report
22 from the experts in respect of both Fiats, ruling each
23 of them out. I thought it sensible to make that plain
24 from the outset.
25 MR HOUGH: In view of that very helpful discussion I had
105
1 with Mr Croxford this morning, I have not gone through
2 the detail of the experts' reports; simply to record the
3 facts that those were ruled out.
4 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
5 MR HOUGH: Moving on finally to a different topic, Mr Gigou.
6 A gentleman called Brian Anderson, an American
7 gentleman, claims to have been interviewed by you on the
8 Monday and Tuesday of the week following the crash in
9 the Alma Tunnel.
10 A. This name does not ring any bells. Do you have any
11 evidence of the name in a report or a statement?
12 Q. There is no statement by Mr Anderson in the French
13 dossier. If you had interviewed him, would you expect
14 a statement to appear in the judicial dossier?
15 A. Obviously. The French criminal procedure is a written
16 procedure, so you cannot have any statement without
17 having the person signing his or her deposition.
18 Q. He described you in evidence in these inquests and to
19 the British police as being over 6 foot in height; that
20 is to say over 180 centimetres.
21 A. So this person is wrong because I am not as tall as
22 180 centimetres.
23 Q. How tall are you?
24 A. 170 centimetres.
25 MR HOUGH: 170. Thank you very much. Those are my
106
1 questions.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield?
3 Can we just take stock of how long everybody is
4 going to take with this witness?
5 MR MANSFIELD: I will not be long. I would think ten
6 minutes, probably.
7 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Keen?
8 MR KEEN: I anticipate I will be a similar period of time,
9 sir.
10 MR CROXFORD: I would expect to be an hour, sir.
11 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Well, we will not finish him
12 tonight.
13 MR CROXFORD: No, sir.
14 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Mansfield, I think we will
15 continue ...
16 Mr Gigou, we will not be able to conclude your
17 evidence tonight. Can you come back tomorrow morning
18 and conclude it then? That would be very helpful from
19 our point of view.
20 A. I have to check with my department because I am on duty
21 with my department tomorrow, so I cannot tell you right
22 now.
23 MR CROXFORD: Again, sir, I hope trying to help: putting it
24 neutrally, a number of documents and events have been
25 put to the witness about which he has expressed some
107
1 lack of familiarity. The officer who seems to have been
2 immediately superior to this officer and in charge of
3 the investigation --
4 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mules.
5 MR CROXFORD: Yes, sir -- he is coming tomorrow. I have
6 already mentioned this to your counsel, in fact, that if
7 I hadn't finished this afternoon, Mr Gigou is due back
8 in March to deal with other matters. It may be that
9 I can pick matters up with Mr Mules, and, of course, if
10 I can do that, I wouldn't expect that I would have to
11 put them to Mr Gigou in March. So if he is in
12 difficulties, I hope that we can cut through it in an
13 efficient way.
14 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes. Did you hear that,
15 Mr Gigou?
16 Did M Gigou hear that?
17 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
18 A. I heard it.
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: That will be a sensible way
20 ahead. We will press on a little bit this afternoon,
21 and then, if we have to conclude this aspect of his
22 evidence, we will do so when he is back in March in any
23 event.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, sir. But the witness has a question.
25 He would like to know if it is possible if he can have
108
1 any information on this guy you just mentioned,
2 Brian Anderson, because he would like to know some
3 details about somebody mentioning him.
4 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes. There is no reason why
5 the transcript of Mr Anderson's evidence should not be
6 made available.
7 MR HOUGH: For everybody's assistance, it is the transcript
8 of 23rdOctober, 2007, pages 58 and 96.
9 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: There are other aspects of
10 Mr Anderson's evidence that the witness may wish to
11 read.
12 A. Thank you very much, because I would like to have some
13 details of somebody assuming that I heard him in such
14 a complex investigation.
15 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you.
16 Mr Macleod, I did not ask you if you were content
17 with the way ahead, which seems to be the only practical
18 solution.
19 MR MACLEOD: Sir, as always, I am content.
20 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I will hold you to that, on
21 another occasion if necessary.
22 Yes, Mr Mansfield.
23 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, may I, in the light of what the witness
24 has just said, ask some questions about Brian Anderson,
25 but perhaps defer until he has had a chance to see the
109
1 transcript.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
3 Questions from MR MANSFIELD
4 MR MANSFIELD: Good afternoon. My name is
5 Michael Mansfield.
6 A. Good afternoon.
7 Q. I represent Mohamed Al Fayed and I have just a few
8 questions. To begin with, just in relation to the man
9 called "Brian Anderson", who you wished to read his
10 evidence, I want just one or two questions on that.
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. First of all, is it right that you were a lieutenant in
13 1997 in August and September?
14 A. That is true.
15 Q. Secondly, you were on duty in the Brigade Criminelle
16 headquarters on Monday 1st September?
17 A. I was on duty on the night of the car crash in
18 the Alma Tunnel, and it was the night from Saturday to
19 Sunday.
20 Q. Yes. But you were also on duty on Monday 1st September,
21 were you not?
22 A. I do not think I could be on duty at that time because,
23 if I remember well, at that time the rules of the duty
24 requirements were if I was on duty on the Saturday night
25 to Sunday, then I could not be on duty before ten days,
110
1 and especially as this investigation was concerned,
2 it was such complex that it needed all the force of the
3 chief which was working on it.
4 Q. I understand. It is a long time ago. The reason I ask
5 is that Brian Anderson says that he was interviewed by
6 an officer, Lieutenant Gigou, on the morning of Monday
7 1st September. With regard to that, could we have on
8 screen, please, [INQ0006790 - read out in court]?
9 If you can see at the top, this is a statement
10 purportedly taken by you in relation to a witness
11 we have heard today, Jean Henri Paul.
12 The first paragraph -- I do not know whether --
13 right at the top, underneath the word "Statement", could
14 it be -- this is in English, but perhaps it could be
15 translated, the relevant bit.
16 "At five past five on 1st September 1997, I,
17 Eric Gigou, police lieutenant in the Criminal
18 Investigation Department ..."
19 There is your name and your rank and the department.
20 So it looks from this statement as though you were on
21 duty on 1st September. Is that right?
22 THE INTERPRETER: Maybe there is a misunderstanding
23 regarding the terms because for the witness -- to be "on
24 duty" means to be available in non-business hours and to
25 be able to have any new inquiry, new investigation open.
111
1 A. As I was on duty this very night of the car crash and
2 it was a new investigation for us, then of course --
3 then I took care about this investigation for the days
4 which followed without taking any day off afterwards.
5 Q. Yes. So, sorry --
6 A. So that is normal for me to draft any statements because
7 it was part of this investigation, but I was not on duty
8 that day.
9 Q. Well, if we just look at it. It is an interview with
10 M Paul on that day, is it not? It says that you "took
11 the following statement".
12 A. I cannot remember.
13 Q. Did you not take the statement on the morning of
14 1st September 1997?
15 A. Which witness?
16 Q. Can we scroll down slightly? In English it says, "As to
17 his identity: my name is Jean Henri Paul ...", and then
18 there are details. Then there is another heading, "As
19 to the facts".
20 A. I do not remember exactly the time and the date
21 precisely, currently, but that is true that I heard him.
22 Q. Yes, which means that you were available to deal with
23 another witness called Brian Anderson on 1st September,
24 were you not?
25 A. That is true. I was working that very day and I could
112
1 have heard anybody in this single investigation.
2 Q. Just again on Brian Anderson: did you ever have any
3 dealings with a man called Brian Anderson?
4 A. I do not remember.
5 Q. All right. Is there a way of checking records now to
6 see when you were on duty and who you saw?
7 A. It is possible to know if I was working or not these
8 days, and I have told you already that I did not take
9 any day off for a long period because of the complexity
10 of this investigation. But anyway, you just have to
11 refer to the inquiry records and then you will see all
12 the statements signed by me and then that evidences that
13 I heard the person or not.
14 Q. I want to ask you about a detail, a physical detail,
15 concerned with the headquarters of the
16 Brigade Criminelle.
17 Firstly does it contain a big courtyard?
18 A. The Court of Justice -- because the Brigade Criminelle
19 is within the Court of Justice, and within this Court of
20 Justice we have several major yards.
21 Q. Do you have offices on the fourth floor of that
22 headquarters?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is the headquarters near the Pont Neuf, over
25 the River Seine?
113
1 A. As you can see it and know it from its address.
2 Q. Is there a grand stairway inside the building?
3 A. You can see this stairway in many TV shows.
4 Q. I am not asking you about TV shows.
5 Is there -- which will not be in TV shows -- a green
6 waiting room with a bench mounted on the wall; a holding
7 room?
8 A. I think you should use the past tense because if this
9 person assumes that he was heard, it was ten years ago
10 in 1997, so it is the past tense. Anyway, I do not have
11 any recollection of something like that, and you have to
12 know that there is no -- properly speaking, any waiting
13 room within the Brigade Criminelle.
14 Q. A room where he was kept waiting.
15 A. Who are you speaking about?
16 Q. Brian Anderson.
17 A. Let me recall you that if I heard this person -- first
18 of all, let me recall you that I do not remember having
19 heard this person. And second, if I had heard this
20 person then his statement should be within
21 the procedures file, because that is the procedure.
22 Once again, it is the same person who remembers that
23 I have 20 centimetres more than my regular height.
24 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, I am going to defer, if I may, other
25 questions until he has had a chance to ...
114
1 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
2 MR MANSFIELD: I am going to defer other questions until you
3 have had a chance of reading what Brian Anderson says.
4 A. I thank you for that.
5 Q. Could we have on screen -- it is the following page in
6 the statement that he took, so it is [INQ0006791 - read out in court]. This
7 is the second page of the statement on 1st September
8 from M Paul.
9 Redacted numbers I am not interested in, but that
10 list -- can we just highlight the list, please? These
11 are all items that were returned to him on
12 1st September.
13 Do you see that it does not include a mobile phone?
14 Does that accord with your recollection that you did not
15 return a mobile phone to Henri Paul's parents?
16 A. I do not specifically remember, but if it is not noted
17 in the statement that I gave back to the parents of
18 Henri Paul a mobile phone, it means either that we did
19 not have that mobile phone or that we kept that mobile
20 phone for the need of the investigation.
21 Q. Do you now remember which it was?
22 A. No, I do not remember.
23 Q. I want to move to another topic please.
24 You were involved from time to time in lettres
25 rogatoires, is that not right, with the British
115
1 authorities?
2 A. As far as I am concerned, I had some connection
3 sometimes with the British police officers.
4 Q. Is it right that the lettres rogatoires were requesting
5 the British police to interview witnesses and also take
6 any other action which might establish the truth? Is
7 that right?
8 A. If such things were made, it was done through
9 magistrates and not through the police. But I have been
10 personally to the UK to be part of some investigations.
11 Q. Now, does the name Lionel Cherrualt mean anything to
12 you?
13 A. No. If you could maybe give me more detail?
14 Q. Yes. At 3.15 am on Monday 1st September 1997, in
15 North London, his premises were burgled. He was a press
16 photographer connected to SIPA; SIPA, an agency related
17 to paparazzi in Paris and also, by then, James Andanson.
18 Now, does any of that ring any bells?
19 A. It does not ring any bells, sorry.
20 Q. No. So as far as you can remember, the British
21 authorities never disclosed that to you at least, in
22 your inquiries?
23 A. If it appears that I do not remember, that I do not have
24 any recollection of that event, it should appear within
25 the French authorities in court, either directly to
116
1 the magistrate or through an inquiry that
2 the magistrates would have instructed us to do.
3 MR MANSFIELD: Yes. Thank you very much.
4 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Keen, can your
5 cross-examination wait until next time? I am conscious
6 that the jury have been here since half past nine.
7 MR KEEN: One glance to my left persuades me that that is
8 the case.
9 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Half past nine tomorrow morning.
10 Thank you very much, Mr Gigou. We are going to
11 conclude now. We are grateful to you for coming today
12 and we are grateful to you for coming back on another
13 occasion when there will be other questions for you to
14 answer as well. Thank you.
15 (4.31 pm)
16 (The hearing was adjourned until 9.30 am
17 on Tuesday, 5th February 2008)
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
117
1
2 INDEX
3
4 MR JEAN HENRI PAUL (sworn) ....................... 3
5
6 MRS GISELE PAUL (sworn) .......................... 3
7
8 Questions from MR BURNETT ................. 4
9
10 Questions from MR MANSFIELD ............... 18
11
12 Questions from MR HORWELL ................. 25
13
14 Questions from MR KEEN .................... 35
15
16 Further questions from MR BURNETT ......... 47
17
18 MR MARC MONOT (affirmed) ......................... 50
19
20 Questions from MR HOUGH ................... 50
21
22 Questions from MR MANSFIELD ............... 61
23
24 Questions from MR KEEN .................... 68
25
118
1 Questions from MR MACLEOD ................. 76
2
3 MR ERIC GIGOU (sworn) ............................ 79
4
5 Questions from MR HOUGH ................... 79
6
7 Questions from MR MANSFIELD ............... 110
8
9
119
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