4 February 2008 - Morning session
1 Monday, 4th February 2008
2 (9.30 am)
3 (Proceedings delayed)
4 (9.40 am)
5 (Jury present)
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Good morning, members of the
7 jury. We have had various problems. I am happy to say
8 they have all been overcome except for one, and that is
9 that we have not got LiveNote running, although we will
10 have a complete transcript of the proceedings and that
11 will be available in due course. I cannot see any
12 reason why we should not proceed on that basis. Is that
13 agreed, Mr Burnett?
14 MR BURNETT: Sir, it is.
15 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I think all counsel know
16 the position, don't they?
17 The position in Paris, as I understand it, is that
18 the Pauls, Mr and Mrs Paul, are available to give
19 evidence by videolink, and it may be convenient that
20 they are both sworn and can answer any questions, one or
21 the other, depending on which is the more convenient.
22 MR BURNETT: Yes, sir. That would certainly be the
23 course --
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: It may be an unusual course, but
25 it may be one that is helpful to them. Mr Keen?
1
1 MR KEEN: I would be entirely content with that, sir.
2 MR BURNETT: Sir, that is Mr Hughes asking whether we can
3 hear him.
4 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We can nearly see him.
5 Can you hear us in Paris?
6 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: We can now, but we didn't hear
7 everything you said at the beginning.
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: You are very faint.
9 MR BURNETT: And getting fainter.
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We cannot hear you.
11 Can you hear us at all? Could you put your hand up
12 if you can hear us? Can you hear us, please, Mr Hughes?
13 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: We can hear you. Can you hear
14 us?
15 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We can only very, very faintly
16 hear you.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Do you hear me?
18 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: That is better.
19 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: Okay. I think we got the message
20 that you wanted both witnesses sworn at the same time.
21 Is that correct?
22 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes please.
23 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: Shall we start and see if that
24 works?
25 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
2
1 THE INTERPRETER: So Mr and Mrs Paul are assisted by two
2 lawyers, who are close to them, on their right hand and
3 their left.
4 The name of the lawyers are Maitre Meyer and
5 Maitre Frere-Jacques. Do you hear me?
6 MR BURNETT: We can hear you, but it would help if
7 the volume could be turned up a little.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Do you hear us better now?
9 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: A little.
10 THE INTERPRETER: And now?
11 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: It is still not very good.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Is it better now?
13 MR BURNETT: No.
14 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Foley, I wonder if we could
15 get another line. (Pause)
16 THE INTERPRETER: Do you hear us now?
17 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We can hear you, but not very
18 clearly. That sounds as if it may be better.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Is it better now?
20 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: That is much better, yes.
21 MR JEAN HENRI PAUL (sworn)
22 MRS GISELE PAUL (sworn)
23 (Evidence via videolink, interpreted)
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: It would be very helpful if you
25 could avoid moving paper in Paris, please, because that
3
1 is making it difficult to hear the words.
2 THE INTERPRETER: We will try.
3 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you.
4 Questions from MR BURNETT
5 MR BURNETT: Now, good morning. I am not sure whether you
6 can see me yet. No?
7 THE INTERPRETER: Not yet. Now.
8 MR BURNETT: Now, Mme Paul, M Paul, my name is Ian Burnett
9 and I shall ask you some questions first on behalf of
10 the Coroner.
11 When I have finished asking you questions, other
12 lawyers here may ask you some additional questions,
13 including your own lawyers.
14 Now, first can I say that we are all very conscious
15 of the fact that it must be difficult for you, ten years
16 after the terrible events of the night in which your son
17 lost his life, to be asked to give evidence concerning
18 him and we are sorry about that. Might I express our
19 condolences to you?
20 Might I start by asking you your names; Madame, are
21 you Gisele Paul?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And, sir, are you Jean Henri Paul?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, M Paul, is it right that you made a short statement
4
1 to the French police on 1st September 1997?
2 A. Certainly, yes.
3 Q. And did you both take part in an interview for the BBC
4 on 2nd August 2002?
5 A. It may be. I do not remember.
6 MR BURNETT: Can I ask others in the room not to talk?
7 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear you at all now.
8 MR BURNETT: And we are having difficulty at this end as
9 well. Can you hear me now?
10 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
11 MR BURNETT: We were hearing a lot of interference at your
12 end of paper moving and talking. The line is bad today
13 and we will all have to try quite hard.
14 My next question was: do M and Mme Paul remember
15 meeting Lord Stevens and others from the Metropolitan
16 Police at the British Embassy in Paris in November 2006?
17 A. Yes. It was not at the British Embassy. It was at
18 the Ambassador's house.
19 Q. I am grateful for the correction.
20 I have a few questions by way of background, if
21 I may.
22 Now we know that Henri Paul worked for the Ritz
23 Hotel as the deputy head of security. You were aware of
24 that, I think.
25 A. Yes.
5
1 Q. As such, he lived in Paris, but you live in Brittany, is
2 that right?
3 A. Yes, that is right.
4 Q. And your son --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, it was just a confirmation that they
6 were living in Brittany and he was living in Paris.
7 A. But we were seeing him very often.
8 MR BURNETT: Yes. How often did you see him in the year
9 before his death?
10 A. At least once a month. And we were -- I mean, he was
11 coming to visit us at least once a month and we were
12 also spending some time with him in Paris. We were
13 spending one week every summer.
14 Q. Is it right that your son would telephone home to you on
15 Wednesdays and also at the weekends?
16 A. Yes, that is right, and I was also calling him
17 sometimes.
18 Q. I see. You last spoke to him on the Wednesday before
19 the tragedy; is that right?
20 A. Yes, that is right.
21 Q. Now we have heard that one of Henri's great loves was
22 flying. Is that right?
23 A. Yes and tennis too. Playing tennis and playing
24 the piano too.
25 Q. Are you aware that he had, just very shortly before
6
1 the crash, passed a medical examination for the purposes
2 of flying?
3 A. Three days before, on 28th August. It was a serious
4 examination and everything was okay.
5 Q. Now, did Henri talk much about his job?
6 A. Not so much.
7 MR BURNETT: Sir, I do not know about you, but the sound
8 seems to have deteriorated. I am having difficulty. Is
9 it possible at the Paris end to turn up the volume?
10 THE INTERPRETER: Is it better now?
11 MR BURNETT: A little. This is not easy. I will keep going
12 and tell me if you have difficulty hearing me. Do you
13 know when Henri started driving?
14 A. You mean driving a car?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. In 1973 or 1974.
17 Q. Was that whilst he was doing National Service?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. As far as you were aware, was Henri a man who drank
20 alcohol to excess?
21 A. No, never. Not at all.
22 Q. Had either of you ever seen Henri drunk?
23 A. No, never. No, we don't drink.
24 Q. You don't drink at all; is that right?
25 A. No, not at all. Just look at me, I am 77 and you can
7
1 see on my face if I am drinking or not!
2 Q. Mme Paul, please understand, I am not suggesting for
3 a moment that you do. So there was no alcohol in your
4 house at all, even when Henri was at home?
5 A. Of course we had some bottles of alcohol at home when we
6 were receiving friends or relatives, such as you do.
7 We drink tea and coffee.
8 Q. But anyway, you had never seen Henri drunk and he was
9 not in the habit of drinking a lot of alcohol as far as
10 you were concerned?
11 A. No. Never at home.
12 Q. Now, I would like to ask you one or two questions about
13 Henri's finances. I am sure you are aware that when he
14 died, he had a large amount of cash on him?
15 A. Yes, and we already explained that when he had to do
16 some shopping for the clients of the hotel, he needed to
17 have some cash on him to be able to pay for it. He had
18 always a certain amount of cash on him.
19 Q. And was that something that Henri had explained to you
20 in the past?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you hear me?
23 THE INTERPRETER: Hardly.
24 MR BURNETT: Sir, I wonder whether we might try again to
25 re-contact --
8
1 THE INTERPRETER: It is better now.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: It seems to come and go.
3 MR BURNETT: All right. We will keep persevering for a bit.
4 So was it your understanding that Henri carried
5 large amounts of cash to be able to buy things for
6 customers at the Ritz?
7 A. That is right. That is perfectly right. If you have
8 notes on you, it is easier if you don't want to queue
9 anywhere.
10 Q. Then would Henri be reimbursed by the customers or
11 the hotel?
12 A. We don't know. I think most of the time it was by
13 clients, but I do not know exactly. I do not know for
14 sure. And he did not want to speak about that because,
15 if he had too much money, he should have to put this
16 money on his tax return.
17 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: It is very difficult to hear
18 the interpreter, partly, I think, because she is
19 speaking quite quickly against a difficult background.
20 MR BURNETT: Sir I think everyone is having a lot of
21 difficulty, and out of fairness to M and Mme Paul, can
22 we try another line?
23 THE INTERPRETER: We can hear you now. Okay. Thank you.
24 MR BURNETT: I am sorry about this. We will try again.
25 (New line established).
9
1 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We have a new line now. Can you
2 hear us?
3 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, we can hear you. It is a little bit
4 faint, but we can hear you.
5 MR BURNETT: All right.
6 Did Henri --
7 THE INTERPRETER: No, we don't hear you. Sorry.
8 MR BURNETT: Sir, I think this is really very difficult and
9 it is not good for M and Mme Paul.
10 THE INTERPRETER: We can hear what happens in the room, but
11 we cannot hear you. We have a lot of noise around.
12 We cannot hear you clearly, but everything surrounding
13 is okay.
14 MR BURNETT: We have a lot of noise around as well.
15 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: Can I suggest, sir, that it might
16 be helpful if we took the break earlier and perhaps you
17 could see if we can get a better line through.
18 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes, I think we will have to do
19 that.
20 We will break off now and we will see what
21 the technical people can do.
22 Mr Keen, I think it is just not really viable trying
23 to go on, is it?
24 MR KEEN: I entirely agree, sir. It is most unfortunate,
25 but it is going to be very difficult to take in
10
1 the evidence if it comes across in this fashion.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: I am very conscious of not
3 putting the Pauls to more distress than is necessary,
4 but we have to do something about this.
5 (10.05 am)
6 (A short break)
7 (10.20 am)
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Can you hear us in Paris now,
9 Mr Hughes?
10 SECRETARY TO THE INQUEST: Yes, we can.
11 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We are just bringing the jury
12 back into court. (Pause)
13 (Jury present).
14 MR BURNETT: Now, we will try again, if we may.
15 Just before we tried to sort the problem out, you
16 were telling us that Henri carried cash to pay for
17 things for guests and customers at the Ritz. That is
18 right, is it?
19 A. Yes, that is right.
20 Q. That was something that you knew about because he had
21 told you about it?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You are aware, I think, that in addition to some cash
24 being found after the crash, Henri had quite a lot of
25 money in various bank accounts. You know that, don't
11
1 you?
2 A. Yes. He had bank accounts, but these bank accounts were
3 not full.
4 Q. Do you know where that money came from?
5 A. From his work.
6 Q. In particular, did Henri talk to you about tips that he
7 received through his work?
8 A. Sometimes, but he did not want to speak about that
9 because, as I told you already, if you speak about that,
10 then you have to put it on your tax return.
11 Q. Yes, so is the position this, that Henri received tips
12 in his work, but he, like many people, did not declare
13 them to the tax authorities?
14 A. That is right.
15 Q. Did he ever talk to you about how much some of those
16 tips were?
17 A. No. Very often these tips were much above my own
18 salary.
19 Q. You mentioned, when you met Lord Stevens, an example.
20 Do you remember that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What was that?
23 A. We don't really remember and it was in French francs, so
24 it is difficult now to make it match with euros.
25 Q. Let me see if I can remind you. You mentioned to
12
1 Lord Stevens that, for example, Henri had done some
2 shopping for a Saudi prince, for the wife and daughter
3 of a Saudi prince, and had been tipped 5,000 francs for
4 that.
5 A. Yes, that is right, and he bought a camera with that
6 amount of money.
7 Q. You also mentioned that other tips would be left for
8 Henri with the concierge at the Ritz by customers.
9 A. I do not remember.
10 Q. But, M Paul, you mentioned that sometimes the tips would
11 be larger than your salary. What sort of sums are you
12 talking about?
13 A. It was in French francs, it was 11 years ago and I was
14 already retired, so with the retirement allowance,
15 I would say maybe 7,000 French francs.
16 Q. I see. How often do you believe Henri received these
17 types of tips?
18 A. We don't know at all. We don't know.
19 Q. All right. It would appear that he did not tell the
20 Ritz Hotel about these tips. Does that surprise you?
21 A. It does not surprise me.
22 Q. Why does it not surprise you, Mme Paul?
23 A. I do not think we have to tell our boss that we have
24 received some tips.
25 Q. I see.
13
1 In the course of the work that Henri did at
2 the Ritz, we have heard that he had contact from time to
3 time with the French security authorities. Were you
4 aware of that?
5 A. No. He never spoke to us about that.
6 Q. I see.
7 Well, now can I move on to events after the tragedy?
8 Is it right that you both went to Henri's flat to sort
9 out his possessions?
10 A. Yes, to prepare for moving. We could not keep his flat.
11 We could not pay for the rent.
12 Q. Did you meet Henri's friend, M Garrec, at the flat?
13 A. Not immediately. I do not remember, but not
14 immediately.
15 Q. How many visits did you pay to the flat in the days or
16 week after the crash?
17 A. We remained blocked within the apartment for roughly ten
18 days due to the paparazzi who were just at the gate.
19 Q. I think, Mme Paul, that you sorted out some empty
20 bottles and put them under the sink so that they could
21 be thrown away; is that right?
22 A. Yes, I dealt with the bottles.
23 Q. As far as any bottles of alcoholic beverage is
24 concerned, you believed that that was there for Henri to
25 entertain guests. Is that right?
14
1 A. Yes, indeed. There were bottles of drinks I knew he did
2 not drink all, such as Martini, white Martini or Suze
3 or ... There were also 200 cans of Coca Cola.
4 Q. We have heard about those from another witness.
5 Whilst you were at the flat, did a young woman
6 called Francoise visit?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And what did she ask?
9 A. She wanted to have a memory from Henri.
10 Q. She wanted something to remember him by, is that right?
11 A. We did not know at all who she was and what she wanted.
12 She seemed totally lost. I had never heard about her
13 before. That was one of the special features of Henri,
14 when he met with somebody who had troubles, he was
15 always there to help these people.
16 Q. How old was this lady?
17 A. In between 20 and 25 years old. I did not really pay
18 attention to her. She was young, I can remember. For
19 us she was young.
20 Q. At all events, you did not know who she was?
21 A. Not at all.
22 Q. Did you give her a momento of Henri, as she asked?
23 A. No. I did not know what to give her.
24 Q. When you were clearing and sorting Henri's flat, did you
25 come across the answer machine attached to
15
1 the telephone?
2 THE INTERPRETER: Before answering, Mrs Paul would like to
3 add that she had a key of the flat.
4 MR BURNETT: I see. Thank you.
5 A. Yes, we did.
6 MR BURNETT: So, Francoise, the young lady in her 20s, had
7 a key to Henri's flat, is that right?
8 A. After her visit -- because we asked her how she could be
9 in and she told us that she had a key, and after her
10 visit, we changed the locks because that was not so safe
11 because we did not know her.
12 Q. I see. Now I was asking you about the answer machine
13 attached to the telephone. Do you remember that there
14 was an answer machine?
15 A. We remember there was an answering machine, but we did
16 not know how to use it.
17 Q. When you saw Lord Stevens, the Metropolitan Police
18 commissioner, you mentioned that you had listened to
19 the answer-machine tape. Is that right?
20 A. Yes, it is when we had -- I do not remember if it was
21 Dominique or Claude, but it was when we had one of his
22 relatives with us.
23 Q. Can you remember roughly how many messages there were on
24 the tape?
25 A. We don't know. We don't remember.
16
1 Q. Do you remember over what period the messages had been
2 left?
3 A. No, it is too far away now. We don't remember.
4 Q. When you spoke to Lord Stevens, you mentioned one
5 message from the secretary of Madame Picasso, for whom
6 Henri had provided a service. Do you remember that?
7 A. Yes. I do not remember any other, and maybe there was
8 just this one by the way.
9 Q. I see. That was the daughter of the famous artist and
10 it was to do with Henri arranging a visit to
11 the Louvres; is that right?
12 A. I do not remember. I remember that there were many
13 tickets from the Louvres museum at home.
14 Q. Did you keep the answer machine? Do you know what
15 happened to it?
16 A. No. No, we had no interest in it, so I do not think so.
17 We don't remember.
18 Q. I see --
19 A. Because it -- could it still be working? Could we find
20 the tapes back? I do not even know.
21 Q. Is it right that when you saw Lord Stevens, he told you
22 that he would not be suggesting that Henri was drunk?
23 A. He just said "Your son was not drunk".
24 Q. And that he would be --
25 A. I remember that he told that. He told that to my
17
1 husband, who does not understand English, but I remember
2 this sentence.
3 Q. Also that he would be saying that Henri had consumed two
4 alcoholic drinks on the night of the incident.
5 A. He told us that it was not these two alcoholic drinks
6 that could lead to Henri being drunk, especially because
7 we were in the month of August and it was hot.
8 MR BURNETT: Thank you very much, Mme Paul and M Paul.
9 Those are all my questions.
10 A. And when remember, I remember perfectly well because
11 I am not old enough not to remember.
12 MR BURNETT: It is, Mme Paul, also recollected and recorded
13 by the Metropolitan Police themselves. Okay?
14 Thank you very much. Those are my questions.
15 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you very much, Mme Paul and
16 M Paul. There may be some other questions from other
17 barristers in the case.
18 Mr Mansfield?
19 Questions from MR MANSFIELD
20 MR MANSFIELD: Good morning. My name is Michael Mansfield
21 and I represent Mohamed Al Fayed, whose son Dodi was
22 killed in the crash.
23 As has already been said, we all appreciate how
24 distressing it is. I will keep my questions to
25 a minimum.
18
1 A. Thank you very much. That is very kind of you.
2 Q. The statement that you gave to the French police is
3 timed at 5 past 5 in the morning of Monday
4 1st September 1997. Is that how you remember when you
5 first spoke to the French police?
6 A. Certainly. We came immediately.
7 Q. Can you help us as to when it was --
8 A. Let me tell you that we came immediately, but we were
9 not in such a good mood, as you can imagine.
10 Q. No. No. I can imagine.
11 The question I want to ask is: when was it that you
12 first went to Henri's apartment?
13 A. Monday morning.
14 Q. Did you go on your own?
15 A. Dominique Melo was with us.
16 Just a detail. It is not the first time that
17 we went to the apartment. It was the first time after
18 the crash.
19 Q. Yes. Sorry, that is what I meant. The first time after
20 the crash was on the Monday morning, Monday
21 1st September, with M Melo?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who had keys to his apartment?
24 A. We had keys of the apartment because, when we went to
25 visit him, we had the keys.
19
1 Q. Right.
2 A. And he had the keys of our house. When he was home, he
3 was at his own home and when we were at his flat, we
4 were at our own home.
5 Q. I understand.
6 A. I had got his keys for a long time.
7 Q. When you went into the apartment, was it very tidy?
8 A. No -- no cigarettes, nothing. It was all clean.
9 Q. Were there documents spread out on the living room
10 table?
11 A. No, nothing was spread on the table. Everything was
12 clean.
13 Q. The reason I ask is --
14 A. I do not remember. It is far away now.
15 Q. Yes, I am sorry. I am sorry to ask about a long time
16 ago.
17 A. I do not remember anything being spread out because
18 I remember I thought the apartment was quite cold
19 because it was too clean.
20 Q. Do you remember a police lieutenant by the name of
21 Marc Monot?
22 A. No, I do not remember. We cannot remember.
23 Q. He says that he went to the apartment on
24 3rd September -- that is two days later; a Wednesday --
25 and saw you both at the apartment, and when he was
20
1 there, there were a large number of documents on
2 the living room table.
3 A. That is not a surprise because we were there and it was
4 two days after.
5 Q. Yes. The question is: did you yourselves go through his
6 documents and put them on the table?
7 A. Maybe, but we cannot say now.
8 Q. I want to, in a moment, show you some documents. Do you
9 happen to remember when it was, if they told you, that
10 the police first went to his apartment?
11 A. No, but we remember that they went quite quickly, too
12 clean(?).
13 MR MANSFIELD: Sir, I believe it is possible to put on the
14 screen a number of documents that were found by
15 the police.
16 I want to show you a couple of documents. There
17 were 18 on the table.
18 Sir, I will give you a reference. It does not have
19 an INQ number. It is [D968]. Could that be put on the
20 screen? Can you see that document?
21 A. Not yet.
22 Q. The question, when you can see the document, is: is that
23 Henri's writing?
24 A. That is Henri's writing and the address is the address
25 of Samantha, Laurence's daughter.
21
1 Q. It is just the writing. I am not going to through all
2 the documents. First of all, we have established that
3 that is his writing.
4 Could we have [D969], please? It is one more
5 document.
6 A. I think it is his handwriting, at the bottom of the page
7 at least, but I am not so sure for the top.
8 Q. What about the column of figures and the writing to
9 the left of the column?
10 A. Certainly, yes, it is Henri's handwriting. When you see
11 the second line, "Liv A", it is the bank account that
12 I opened him.
13 Q. I want to ask you if you can help. In June, July and
14 August of 1997, there were large sums of cash being paid
15 into different accounts. It works out at 80,000 francs
16 each month; June, July and August, 80,000 francs each
17 month. Have you any idea where that kind of money was
18 coming from?
19 A. No. Absolutely not. He never spoke to me about that.
20 Q. Very few other questions. Again, going back to
21 the apartment, is it right that two mobile phones were
22 found, but he did use another one, a third mobile phone?
23 Is that right?
24 A. I gave back the mobile phone which belonged to the Ritz
25 Hotel and I kept Henri's own mobile phone, and I still
22
1 have it. It is a Nokia.
2 Q. Now the Nokia that you still have --
3 A. I do not remember to whom we gave the mobile phone at
4 the Ritz Hotel.
5 Q. Yes. Sorry, the one that you still have, did you find
6 that in the flat, in the apartment?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. There were two in the apartment, mobile phones.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And according to --
11 A. I remember that somebody from the Ritz Hotel told us
12 that one of the mobiles was theirs, and so we went back
13 with the mobile and we gave them back. We are trying to
14 fix who was the person whose name -- Mr Claude Roulet,
15 he claimed for the mobile phone. Maybe it was his own
16 mobile phone. I do not know.
17 Q. I am sorry this is detailed, but I just want to ask you
18 this: the one that you kept, do you happen to remember
19 the telephone number for the one that you kept?
20 A. No, I do not remember. Maybe it is written within
21 the telephone. I would have to check, but I do not
22 think so.
23 Q. All right. One more question on phones: did he have
24 a Motorola mobile phone with a flip lid? Do you
25 understand? Did he ever have or did you ever see him
23
1 with a mobile Motorola with a flip lid?
2 A. I do not remember. Maybe. Maybe. He had also a pager
3 from the hotel that we gave back.
4 Q. The answerphone that you listened to, do you remember
5 when you first listened to it and was it in the presence
6 of the police?
7 A. I do not remember if there were any policemen, but
8 maybe, as we did not know how to use it. Maybe it was
9 either Claude putting it on or the policemen. I do not
10 remember.
11 Q. Can you help us? What has happened to the
12 answer machine and the tape inside? Do you have that
13 still?
14 A. Maybe it is still within the answering machine.
15 Maybe -- if it is still within the answering machine,
16 we never looked at it. We put everything in a box and
17 we left this box in our house, but we never had a look
18 in it. As we don't know at all all these equipments,
19 maybe it is still within the machine.
20 Q. Yes. Sorry to trouble you, but is --
21 A. Every electric device with all these cables, we don't
22 understand anything about that so we don't use it.
23 Q. You are not alone, don't worry.
24 Are you saying that the answering machine with,
25 possibly, the tape is at your home now?
24
1 A. Maybe. That is possible. There are many things that
2 we did not dare to look at.
3 Q. Would it be possible --
4 A. We gave a lot of things to some organisations for poor
5 people.
6 Q. All right. I do not want to trouble you personally, but
7 would it be possible for somebody to retrieve the answer
8 machine if you have it at home? Would that be possible?
9 A. Yes, our counsel, Maitre Meyer.
10 Q. Last question: when Lord Stevens came to see you in
11 2006, did he tell you this? If this were an
12 assassination, the repercussions in England would be
13 great and incalculable?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR MANSFIELD: Thank you for your help.
16 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Croxford?
17 MR CROXFORD: No thank you, sir.
18 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Keen, I think you come last.
19 Mr Horwell?
20 Questions from MR HORWELL
21 MR HORWELL: Mr and Mrs Paul, good morning.
22 My name is Richard Horwell and I appear on behalf of
23 the Chief of London Police. I have a few questions to
24 ask you. I will be as short as I possibly can.
25 A. Thank you.
25
1 Q. You know, don't you, that it has been suggested that
2 your son worked for the British Security Services.
3 A. We heard that, but that is totally wrong.
4 Q. That is what I wanted to ask you. You say that that
5 suggestion is wrong and that you have been hurt by it.
6 Is that true?
7 A. That is quite strange. We never heard anything wrong
8 about our son, and suddenly that was quite strange, to
9 hear about that.
10 Q. Now, the money in your son's accounts, do you know that
11 it is suggested that that is money from the British
12 Security Services?
13 A. If it was only suggested, it means that it has been
14 suggested by jealous people, by mean people.
15 Q. The fact is that you believed that that money came
16 from --
17 A. It is said even to tell us if he was part of the British
18 secret services and not to us(?).
19 Q. You believe that that money came from his tips at
20 the Ritz Hotel, do you not?
21 A. Yes, of course.
22 Q. I am not going to go through the detail again, but it is
23 quite clear in your minds that Henri received a great
24 deal of money in tips from clients of the Ritz?
25 A. Yes. I found an envelope where it was written
26
1 "Prince Aziz". Of course, the envelope was empty, but
2 there was evidence of envelopes given from a prince.
3 Q. To Henri?
4 A. I found the envelope, being empty, of course.
5 Q. Just so that we know, Mr Paul, that envelope was found
6 in Henri's apartment, was it?
7 A. Yes, and it was written on the envelope "For the benefit
8 of Mr Paul".
9 Q. Thank you. Your son had worked at the Ritz for many
10 years?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And your son was very loyal to the Ritz, was he not?
13 A. Yes, obviously.
14 Q. And your son was very loyal to Dodi Al Fayed, was he
15 not?
16 A. Yes. Yes, indeed. Very loyal.
17 Q. And your son would have done --
18 A. They got on well together.
19 Q. And your son would have done whatever Dodi told him to
20 do --
21 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry. We cannot hear you now.
22 MR HORWELL: Can you hear me now?
23 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, thank you.
24 MR HORWELL: Your son would have done whatever Dodi had told
25 him to do, is that right, in the course of his work?
27
1 A. Yes, by keeping the distance which is compulsory between
2 the employee and the boss.
3 Q. If Dodi had told your son to drive when your son had
4 taken some alcohol, he would have driven Dodi because
5 that would have been the order; do you agree?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If Dodi had ordered your son to get away, to drive away
8 from photographers, your son would have carried out that
9 order, would he not?
10 A. I do not know.
11 Q. You have expressed the view that, in your opinion,
12 Dodi Al Fayed must bear some responsibility for what
13 happened that night; do you agree?
14 A. No. We never said that. Never. We don't know about
15 this anyway. We would like to know the truth. We have
16 been looking for the truth for a long time and that is
17 all. We cannot name anybody because we don't know.
18 Q. I understand. I suggest you said that at the meeting
19 with Lord Stevens on 8th November.
20 A. That is wrong.
21 Q. Can I ask you about that meeting, please, and a note
22 that we have been given? I am going to put it up on the
23 screen for you.
24 Is that a note that you and your husband signed?
25 A. Yes. I did it very quickly.
28
1 Q. In whose writing is the note?
2 A. It is mine.
3 THE INTERPRETER: It is Mrs Paul's writing.
4 MR HORWELL: Thank you. I want to ask you, please, about
5 certain things that were said at this meeting. It was
6 a very long meeting, wasn't it?
7 THE INTERPRETER: Mr Meyer would like to know if this letter
8 that we are shown on the screen is related to
9 the meeting with Lord Stevens.
10 MR HORWELL: Yes, it is. It is suggested that this note is
11 a note of the meeting on, as I understand it,
12 8th November 2006. Now, you have said -- and let me
13 make it clear, it is accepted -- that Lord Stevens told
14 you that your son was not drunk.
15 A. Yes, I can repeat it.
16 MR HORWELL: Can I please try to put those words into their
17 context? There had been much --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry.
19 MR HORWELL: There had been much inaccurate reporting about
20 the effect that alcohol had had on your son that night.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Certainly inaccurate reporting in the English press.
23 Had there also been inaccurate reporting in the French
24 press?
25 A. Yes. Since the very beginning.
29
1 Q. It may well be that one of the headlines that had been
2 discussed with you before this meeting was a headline
3 that appeared in one of the English papers that your son
4 was "as drunk as a pig" that night.
5 A. Can you imagine that it is possible that the bodyguards
6 let him drive and that we can see on the CCTV camera and
7 so on? We could see him on this CCTV picture, walk and
8 sit and the normal things.
9 Q. Mr and Mrs Paul, can I please make my position quite
10 clear? I am simply suggesting to you what had been said
11 in the press.
12 A. The same for France.
13 Q. I am only asking you about this one example, a headline
14 in an English paper that Henri Paul was "as drunk as
15 a pig". Do you remember discussing that headline with
16 the British police before this meeting?
17 A. We never spoke about that. Never.
18 Q. But plainly you had been upset by the manner in which
19 this had been reported in the newspapers?
20 A. Yes, of course. The British newspapers are quite famous
21 for exaggerating in many ways.
22 Q. You are quite right. Lord Stevens told you that there
23 was direct evidence of Henri Paul having drunk two
24 Ricards at the Ritz.
25 A. Yes that is true.
30
1 Q. You knew that before the meeting, didn't you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I am just trying to place into context the circumstances
4 in which this conversation took place.
5 If you could translate that please?
6 You knew before this meeting that French scientists
7 had reported that Henri was three times over the French
8 legal limit for driving? You knew that?
9 A. The very next morning, three hours after the tragedy,
10 there were magistrates being here in the Court of
11 Justice stating that our son was drunk.
12 Q. Again, to put this into its proper context, you know
13 that during the course of that Saturday evening, between
14 the hours of 7.00 pm and 10.00 pm, Henri Paul may well
15 have gone for a drink after he had left work?
16 A. We never knew where he was during this period of time,
17 and he could have well been at home, resting, he could
18 have been anywhere. He had played tennis in
19 the morning, and anyway, if he had drunk during this
20 period of time, then it could not appear on his face
21 because we saw him on the videos afterwards.
22 Q. But you said, during the course of this meeting, that he
23 could have gone out for a drink that night because he
24 could have done, couldn't he?
25 A. He could have done anything.
31
1 Q. Well, of course. But please --
2 A. That is totally ridiculous because he could have done
3 anything during this period of time.
4 Q. Please understand that no one is suggesting that there
5 is anything wrong in Henri having a drink that evening
6 because, as far as he was concerned, he had finished
7 work.
8 THE INTERPRETER: I am sorry, I could not hear you because
9 they were speaking together.
10 MR HORWELL: I am sorry. I will ask the question again.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you.
12 MR HORWELL: No one is suggesting that there is anything
13 wrong with his having a drink that night because, as far
14 as Henri was concerned, he had finished work for
15 the evening.
16 A. He had the right to do so.
17 Q. Of course.
18 A. If he was having a drink with a friend, it was with
19 Claude Garrec, and Claude Garrec was not with him during
20 this period of time.
21 Why should you to judge that, during the time he was
22 resting, he had to drink? That type of suggestion,
23 we don't understand.
24 Q. During the course of this meeting, Lord Stevens said
25 words to this effect, I suggest, that he would not allow
32
1 anyone to interfere with his investigation, even if the
2 repercussions to the British Monarchy and Government
3 were severe. Could you translate that, please?
4 A. No. We were not told that.
5 Q. He also told you that he had personally made inquiries
6 with the British security services and he assured you
7 that Henri Paul had not been involved with them.
8 A. Yes, certainly. There were no connections between Henri
9 and the British secret services.
10 Q. Before the meeting took place, it was made clear to you
11 that it was your decision whether or not your lawyer
12 would be present?
13 A. It was quite strange because we felt -- I mean, there
14 was some kind of misunderstanding because we thought
15 that our lawyer, Mr Meyer, would be there and actually
16 he was not called at all.
17 Q. Yes but you knew in advance that he would not be there,
18 didn't you? You knew before the meeting?
19 A. No, we did not know that. We thought he would be there.
20 Q. You see, I suggest that you knew that he would not be
21 there and you were happy for the meeting to go ahead.
22 A. We accepted it because it had no consequence, but we
23 were wrong.
24 Q. Can I ask you about one item of property? You were
25 asked about whether or not you know what happened to
33
1 a telephone that Henri Paul had on him on the night of
2 the crash. What I suggest, Mr Paul, is that a Motorola
3 telephone was returned to you -- you, Mr Paul -- after
4 the crash.
5 A. It is not a Motorola.
6 Q. Well, can I deal with it in this way for a moment --
7 A. What I kept was a Nokia.
8 Q. -- that a telephone was returned to you, Mr Paul, on
9 8th September 1997?
10 A. We were not given any mobile phone, neither his purse or
11 his wallet or anything.
12 MR HORWELL: I suggest one was given to you. We will deal
13 with this in another way. Thank you.
14 MR MANSFIELD: Before my learned friend -- something has
15 been put of considerable importance, and I have just
16 checked the note, that they were told that no one would
17 interfere with the inquiry, even if it had repercussions
18 in relation to the British Monarchy. You may remember
19 that. I seek clarification as to where that assertion
20 comes from because it does not appear in the note
21 prepared by Metropolitan Police officers.
22 MR HORWELL: It is the recollection of Mr Easton, who was
23 also present at that meeting.
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you.
25 Yes, Mr Keen.
34
1 MR BURNETT: Sir, before Mr Keen asks any questions, it is
2 apparent -- both because we can hear it and just see
3 it -- that the lawyer who is sitting next to M Paul is
4 talking to him when the evidence is being given, and
5 it is slightly worrying if the answers are being in any
6 way influenced by legal advice that is coming offstage.
7 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes. Was that heard? Did you
8 hear what Mr Burnett said?
9 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, and I just gave it to Mr Paul and his
10 lawyer.
11 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Could you pass that on to
12 the lawyer?
13 THE INTERPRETER: It has been done, sir.
14 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you.
15 MR KEEN: I think, sir, it was apparent when the reference
16 was made to the meeting with Lord Stevens because, of
17 course, Maitre Meyer was intimately involved with
18 the question of whether or not he should have been
19 present.
20 Questions from MR KEEN
21 MR KEEN: Good morning, M Paul. Good morning, Mme Paul.
22 I would like to ask you just a few questions.
23 You arrived in Paris very shortly after the crash
24 that resulted in the death of your son, Henri?
25 A. The day after the crash.
35
1 Q. Thank you. By the day after the crash, the Public
2 Prosecutor's Office in Paris had already announced that,
3 at the time of the crash, your son was drunk and that
4 was followed by allegations that he was an alcoholic.
5 Do you recall that?
6 A. Yes and it is totally wrong.
7 Q. Do you recall approaching the French authorities and
8 explaining that you were not interested in conspiracy
9 theories, but that you would like an independent blood
10 test to be carried out on Henri Paul in order that you
11 could be satisfied that these allegations were false or
12 true?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And indeed, I think --
15 A. But we never had it.
16 Q. Is it the case that both then and thereafter, all
17 requests by you for such an independent test were
18 refused by the French authorities?
19 A. Always. They were always refused.
20 Q. Now, you told us that you had keys to your son's
21 apartment and you went there after you arrived in Paris.
22 Is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I think you have told us that you began to clear his
25 personal possessions in the apartment. Is that correct?
36
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And Mme Paul referred to the fact that there were some
3 open bottles of aperitifs, including Martini Bianco,
4 which Henri Paul did not drink, which she put in
5 a cupboard under the sink or a cupboard in the kitchen
6 when she was clearing the apartment. Is that right?
7 A. Yes, that is right.
8 Q. Now do you recall that, on 3rd September 1997, two
9 officers of the Brigade Criminelle came to
10 the apartment, a Lieutenant Monot and a Police Major
11 Sanderson?
12 A. Yes, maybe.
13 Q. It was, of course, a long time ago, but we are told that
14 these police officers, acting on an instruction from an
15 investigating magistrate, had come to carry out
16 a detailed search of the apartment.
17 A. While we were there, there was no such detailed search;
18 not during the ten-day period of time that we were in
19 the apartment.
20 Q. You were in the apartment for ten days?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you recall the police coming to the apartment while
23 you were there?
24 A. Yes, young ones, who were very nice, and they did not
25 find any bottles.
37
1 Q. That is what I wanted to check. What we have been told
2 is that on 3rd September --
3 A. Then there was a second team which came and they were
4 quite mean.
5 Q. We will come to the mean second team in a moment. But
6 just dealing with the first search, where you say they
7 found no bottles, I wonder, sir, if we could put up on
8 the screen the French statement of Lieutenant Monot who
9 conducted the search on 3rd September. My junior can
10 pass that to Mr Foley. If we can have the first page to
11 begin with.
12 Now, I wonder if the interpreter can simply ask
13 Madame and M Paul to pause for a moment.
14 Thank you. I wonder if they could look, first of
15 all, at the page on the screen which I think they will
16 see refers to the date of 3rd September 1997 at the top.
17 Do you see that?
18 THE INTERPRETER: We have no document on the screen, sir.
19 MR KEEN: I wonder if that can be rectified.
20 THE INTERPRETER: We can read, at the very top,
21 "3rd September at 3.30 pm".
22 MR KEEN: Thank you.
23 Again, if you could ask Mme Paul just to pause for
24 a moment.
25 If we can scan down the page a little further and
38
1 stop there, do you see a sentence that begins -- again,
2 we cannot both speak at the same time, Mme Interpreter.
3 Can you ask Mme Paul to pause?
4 A. That is okay. Thank you.
5 MR KEEN: I think Mme Paul is reading the document for her
6 and M Paul.
7 MR BURNETT: Sir, I am afraid we have M Paul talking to his
8 lawyer again whilst all this is going on. I wonder
9 whether the camera can come out again. It is very
10 important that we are getting the evidence of the
11 witnesses and not the vicarious evidence of the lawyer.
12 I wonder whether the camera might show us what is going
13 on on either side.
14 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Yes.
15 MR KEEN: I think, in fact, Mme Paul was reading
16 the document as it came up in its entirety, sir.
17 Now, if we just look at one passage on the document,
18 we can see it says, with Mr Paul in attendance, there is
19 a sentence which starts:
20 "Precisons que le nomme Paul Henri ..."
21 If we go further down, we see:
22 "... en presence constante de M Paul Jean ..."
23 I will read it in English if the translator can just
24 take the witnesses to it in French. It says:
25 "With Mr Paul in attendance throughout, we carried
39
1 out a detailed search of the three-roomed flat."
2 Do you see that?
3 If we go to the third page, if it can be put on the
4 screen -- and if we can just come down on this one so
5 that we can see the signature -- is it the case that --
6 again, Mme Interpreter, if you could ask Mme Paul to
7 pause for a moment.
8 Do we see that M Paul has signed this document on
9 the third page? Is that right?
10 A. Yes, I think so, but I do not see clearly because I am
11 nearly blind. I am sorry.
12 THE INTERPRETER: But Mrs Paul says "It is my husband's
13 signature".
14 MR KEEN: Thank you.
15 If we put up the second page of this police
16 statement, I think at the foot of the page, if it comes
17 up a little, please, under the heading "We seized and
18 assigned a case reference number to this piece of
19 paper", there is then a paragraph that by saying:
20 "Continuing the search ..."
21 Does the interpreter see that?
22 If the witnesses could have regard to that, it says
23 there:
24 "Continuing the search, we noted a large quantity of
25 packs of non-alcoholic drinks, some in the dustbin, and
40
1 in the refrigerator a bottle of white Martini,
2 three-quarters empty, and a bottle of champagne."
3 Now that appears to be the drinks that were recorded
4 on this search on 3rd September.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. We have heard your reference already to the aperitifs
7 that were put under the sink.
8 However, were you present in the flat or do you
9 recall being present in the apartment on 9th September,
10 six days later, when two different officers at
11 the Brigade Criminelle returned, purporting to carry out
12 a search again?
13 A. Yes, we were. I think so.
14 Q. Did these police officers, on 9th September, explain to
15 you why they wanted to carry out a further search?
16 A. We were not there. I remember now [Mr Paul says]
17 because -- they came when we were not there because they
18 just unpacked boxes that are already packed in.
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: That was not a terribly clear
20 answer and it may have been quite an important one.
21 It is not that the witness is not clear. It is just
22 that it is very difficult to hear it.
23 THE INTERPRETER: (Overspeaking) ... French police because
24 he remembers now that when he came back the next time,
25 the following time, he saw boxes that he packed and
41
1 these boxes were packed out.
2 MR KEEN: So, just to clarify that, do I understand that you
3 were not present when two different Brigade Criminelle
4 officers purported to carry out a second search on
5 9th September, but when you returned to the apartment
6 after 9th September, it was were apparent that someone
7 had been there because boxes that you had packed up had
8 been unpacked and it was clear that someone had been in
9 the apartment?
10 A. That is totally right.
11 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Can you remind me of the names of
12 the officers on the second search?
13 A. We were just wondering what the police did look for, to
14 accuse our son like that.
15 MR KEEN: If you could allow me a moment,
16 Madame Interpreter.
17 It appears, sir, that on 9th September, the officers
18 were Lieutenant Gigou and Police Captain Crosnier.
19 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Were the Pauls given advance
20 notice of this second search?
21 MR KEEN: Madame Interpreter, could you ask the Pauls, were
22 they given advance notice?
23 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, could you repeat?
24 MR KEEN: Were they given advance notice of the second
25 search that was carried out on 9th September or did they
42
1 only discover it when they returned to the apartment?
2 A. Nobody noticed us and we could see them -- and neither
3 for the first visit of the French police. We were not
4 noticed at all.
5 Q. So do I understand -- if you could clarify -- did M and
6 Mme Paul get advance notice of the search on
7 9th September or did they only discover about the search
8 when they returned to the apartment?
9 A. We were not notified. Nobody never notified us.
10 Q. But on an occasion when you returned to the apartment
11 after 9th September, do I understand that it was
12 apparent that people had been in the apartment and
13 clearly they had been searching through boxes of
14 property that you had packed up?
15 A. Yes, indeed. We had prepared for the moving when we
16 were there before, and when we came back, it was boxes
17 of books and things like that and everything was open;
18 a lot of records, a lot of books.
19 THE INTERPRETER: And they totally made the flat tidy.
20 MR KEEN: Sorry, can we understand that answer from M Paul?
21 When you say "we totally made the flat tidy", what was
22 meant?
23 Was he referring to the condition of the flat when
24 they returned after 9th September?
25 A. Yes, that is true. When we came back, we noted that
43
1 somebody went into the apartment and then it was not as
2 clean as we left it. It was all untidy.
3 Q. I follow. Did anyone ever explain to you why, in a case
4 allegedly involving a drunk driver and a motor accident,
5 it had been necessary for people to return and enter
6 the apartment in your absence and search through
7 the apartment?
8 A. Nobody explained us anything.
9 Q. Now, can I move on slightly?
10 A. But I would like to recall that the driver was not
11 drunk.
12 Q. I appreciate that. I was referring to the allegations
13 made by the French Public Prosecutor.
14 Now can I move on to the meeting that you had with
15 Lord Stevens in 2006?
16 Is it correct that the Metropolitan Police arranged
17 for M and Mme Paul to be brought from Brittany to Paris
18 to meet with Lord Stevens at the British Ambassador's
19 residence on 8th November 2006?
20 A. Yes, that is right.
21 Q. I think, Mme Paul, you have already indicated that
22 following this meeting, you prepared a note of what was
23 said at the meeting. Is that correct?
24 A. That is right.
25 Q. I wonder if we could just have the French version on the
44
1 screen again for a moment.
2 I will read from the translation. I think you told
3 us, Mme Paul, that --
4 THE INTERPRETER: We don't have the document, sir.
5 MR KEEN: Do you have the document now?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, thank you.
7 MR KEEN: Is it in focus so you can identify it?
8 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
9 MR KEEN: I think, Mme Paul, this is the note of the meeting
10 with Lord Stevens that you prepared.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If we go to the second paragraph --
13 A. It was thanks to the help of Philip Easton, who was
14 speaking French perfectly.
15 Q. Thank you. Given that my French is not perfect, I will
16 speak from the English translation and perhaps you can
17 confirm the French.
18 "Lord Stevens gave us a brief summary of the
19 procedure he was conducting in England. His
20 conversation was translated by Mr Easton. He asserted
21 that Henri was not drunk on the evening of the accident
22 and that he was driving at a lower speed than that
23 indicated in the French proceedings and that it was
24 impossible to perform investigations in the tunnel given
25 that the road services had cleaned everything up after
45
1 the accident at around 5 am. He told us that if this
2 were an assassination, the repercussions in England
3 would be great and incalculable."
4 Is that an accurate record of what you were told by
5 Lord Stevens at this meeting, M and Mme Paul?
6 THE INTERPRETER: I going to read for them because they
7 cannot see it on the screen.
8 MR KEEN: Thank you.
9 THE INTERPRETER: We don't have the document any longer,
10 I am sorry. (Document read in French)
11 A. That is totally what Mr Stevens told us.
12 Q. Do you recall it being suggested during this meeting
13 that the French investigation made its mind up almost
14 immediately that the crash had occurred as a result of
15 their son being drunk and driving too fast and worked
16 its investigation towards this?
17 Can you recall that being said by anyone at
18 the meeting?
19 A. I think so.
20 Q. Finally, M and Mme Paul, are you still waiting for
21 the French authorities to allow an independent analysis
22 of the blood samples which they claim they took from
23 Henri Paul?
24 A. Yes, we do.
25 MR KEEN: Thank you, M Paul. Thank you, Mme Paul. I have
46
1 no further questions.
2 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Mr Burnett?
3 Further questions from MR BURNETT
4 MR BURNETT: Just a couple of very short matters.
5 Can you see me all right?
6 Mme Paul, you told us that you found a Nokia
7 telephone in the flat. Is that right?
8 A. Yes. I do not know -- M Paul answered. I do not know.
9 It is M Paul who found it.
10 Q. Mr Paul found it?
11 A. But there was another one.
12 Q. You have told us about the phone that went to the Ritz.
13 Do you still have the Nokia phone in your house in
14 a box?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Might that also be made available through your lawyer?
17 A. If I have the right to speak with my lawyer?
18 Q. Yes, of course.
19 THE INTERPRETER: He is recalling who you are to his client.
20 MR BURNETT: Yes. It is very easy to forget. I am asking
21 questions on behalf of the Coroner, the judge.
22 All right. This is a question for M Paul. There is
23 a record, M Paul, of the French police returning
24 a mobile phone to you on 8th September, a Captain
25 Jean-Pierre Cheron(?). Do you remember that?
47
1 A. No. I remember that there were two telephones in
2 the flat, but I do not remember for another one.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 A. There were two Ericsson mobiles, but -- Mrs Paul says
5 I can remember that because it was written on the
6 document.
7 Q. Yes. There is a record of two Ericssons being found in
8 the flat which belonged to the Ritz, but the French
9 police records suggest that a phone which Henri had with
10 him at the time of the crash was returned to M Paul, but
11 it is that which you do not remember, I think.
12 A. Maybe, yes.
13 Q. Maybe? All right.
14 A. We were also given a portable (inaudible), a small
15 computer which was broken and which had been visited by
16 the French police before.
17 Q. All right. Can I then just ask about two other matters?
18 The second search of Henri's flat carried out by
19 the police, were you aware that Claude Garrec was with
20 them when they conducted that search?
21 A. Yes, I think. We should ask him. It is not up to us to
22 say that; it is up to Claude.
23 Q. Yes. Is there anything else to come?
24 THE INTERPRETER: No, they were speaking to each other.
25 MR BURNETT: So although you were not present when
48
1 the second search was carried out, Claude Garrec was
2 there and you knew that to be the case. Is that right?
3 THE INTERPRETER: No, Mrs Paul answers "I did not know
4 Claude was there".
5 MR BURNETT: And Mr Paul? Did Mr Paul --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Mrs Paul is saying that "Maybe you benefit
7 from the fact that we are old".
8 I wondered whether M Paul had given a different
9 answer. That was all.
10 A. You should rather ask Claude because, if he was there,
11 then he is the one who should be asked.
12 MR BURNETT: Well, we have asked Claude. I wondered whether
13 you were aware that he had been there.
14 A. Claude is much younger than we are so he can remember
15 better than we do.
16 MR BURNETT: Please don't worry. Those are my only
17 questions.
18 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Thank you very much.
19 M and Mme Paul, we are very grateful to you for
20 coming to give evidence to us. I hope it has not been
21 too much of a strain for you.
22 A. It is tiring.
23 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: It was important that we heard
24 from you, but that is all we now require. Thank you.
25 Now, the next witness is M Monot, but we will have
49
1 a short break now. I think only five minutes is
2 required on this occasion. So we will resume in five
3 minutes' time.
4 (12.02 pm)
5 (A short break)
6 (12.10 pm)
7 (Jury present)
8 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Good afternoon, Mr Monot. I am
9 sorry we have kept you waiting a little while.
10 MR HOUGH: Could the witness please make an oath or
11 affirmation?
12 MR MARC MONOT (affirmed)
13 (Evidence via videolink, interpreted)
14 Questions from MR HOUGH
15 MR HOUGH: Is your name Marc Monot?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. My name is Jonathan Hough and I will ask you questions
18 first on behalf of the Coroner here.
19 I think, in 1997, you were a lieutenant in the
20 Brigade Criminelle and involved in the investigations
21 into the deaths of the Princess of Wales, Dodi Al Fayed
22 and Henri Paul.
23 A. Yes.
24 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: We seem to be having trouble with
25 the sound again. It has gone very quiet.
50
1 MR HOUGH: I do not know if the volume can be turned up at
2 the Parisian end.
3 THE INTERPRETER: That is going to be done now.
4 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Is the microphone in the optimum
5 position? It was moved for the last witnesses.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear us clearly now?
7 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: That is a little better, but not
8 very good.
9 MR HOUGH: We will do our best, I think.
10 M Monot, did you undertake a search of Henri Paul's
11 flat on the Rue des Petits Champs in Paris?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I think that was on 3rd September 1997, the Wednesday
14 following the crash.
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. I think you prepared a report after that search.
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Have you seen that report and do you have a copy with
19 you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, is this right: during the course of that search,
22 M Paul's parents and other members of the family were
23 present in the flat?
24 A. Yes, when we arrived there, they were present,
25 the parents and other members of the family.
51
1 Q. While you were there, did Henri Paul's father hand over
2 to you an electronic personal organiser?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was that badly damaged because it had been in
5 Henri Paul's possession at the time of the crash?
6 A. Yes, and actually the device had been given to Mr Paul
7 Senior, the father of Henri, on the occasion of
8 the hearing at the Criminal Brigade.
9 Q. So is this right: that personal organiser was given to
10 M Paul who then gave it back to you, the police?
11 A. Yes, so that we could use it at a later stage to get to
12 know what were the names present on that agenda, on that
13 electronic device.
14 Q. Did you also take away a number of pieces of paper
15 bearing addresses and telephone numbers and a number of
16 business cards?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. In your statement, you refer to there being 18 pieces of
19 paper. Is that right?
20 A. Yes, that -- I joined those appendixes to my report.
21 Q. According to your report, those were found on the table
22 in the living room. Is that right?
23 A. Yes. If I remember well, it was a flat with one main
24 room and two bedrooms, and the documents were on the
25 table in the sitting room, in that room.
52
1 Q. In general terms, was the flat tidy or more
2 disorganised?
3 A. It was relatively tidy.
4 Q. You have referred to appending some documents to your
5 report. Does your report make clear when you seized
6 particular items and took them away with you?
7 A. It just gives the number of documents that were seized,
8 a copy of which is attached to the report itself.
9 Q. But in a number of places in the report, there are
10 references to you seizing things. Is it right that
11 whenever you seized something you noted it in the report
12 or does the report omit some things that you seized?
13 A. Everything that is seized is mentioned in the report.
14 Q. In your report you mention finding a bottle of champagne
15 and a quarter-full bottle of Martini in the fridge.
16 A. Yes. They were not seized, those bottles, but I mention
17 in my report that we found in the fridge a bottle of
18 champagne and a bottle of Martini, yes.
19 Q. You also note finding -- some in the dustbin, some out
20 of it -- packs of soft drinks.
21 A. Yes, it was specified.
22 Q. While you were at the flat, did you find two mobile
23 phones?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You give the numbers of those mobile phones and you then
53
1 use the words "belonging to the Ritz Hotel". Did they
2 both belong to the Ritz Hotel?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. There is no reference in your report to you having
5 seized the mobile phones. Is it right to say that you
6 did not seize them?
7 A. No, they were not seized. I just put down writing the
8 numbers so that one of my colleagues could use them at
9 a later stage, which she did.
10 Q. You record in your report that both of them were
11 Ericsson-make mobile phones; is that right?
12 A. Yes, it is correct.
13 Q. Now I think you also found three handsets for
14 the landline of the flat.
15 A. Yes, three cordless handsets that related to the same
16 home line.
17 Q. So they all related to a single landline at the flat?
18 A. Yes, but they were not in the same room in
19 the apartment.
20 Q. Now I think a colleague of yours took the numbers for
21 the mobile phones and the landline and obtained, from
22 the service providers, a list of calls made and
23 received; is that right?
24 A. Yes, it was an official judicial request made to
25 the service providers to know which phones had been used
54
1 and to be in contact with whom.
2 Q. In the course of your report, did you attempt to give
3 a complete account of all bottles of alcohol in the flat
4 or may you have missed some?
5 A. Within the framework of that search, we were not asked
6 to mention all of the bottles that we could find, and
7 also I have got to specify that the atmosphere was quite
8 tense because the parents of Henri Paul were there and
9 we had to negotiate with them for a while so that they
10 would accept that so that we proceeded with that search.
11 Q. So does it surprise you that six days later some of your
12 colleagues conducted a second search and found some
13 bottles of alcohol in the lobby?
14 A. No, it is not a surprise because that was the aim of
15 that second search, to note down all of the bottles of
16 alcohol that could be found and also medications because
17 that was following the analysis of blood that had been
18 undertaken in the meantime. I personally also proceeded
19 to a second search in the office of Henri Paul at
20 the Ritz Hotel to try to find any traces of alcohol on
21 9th September.
22 Q. Did you find any alcohol there on that occasion?
23 A. No, but medications.
24 Q. What medications did you find?
25 A. I cannot remember precisely their names,
55
1 the medications, but they are mentioned in the report
2 dated 9th September, I think.
3 Q. While you were at M Paul's flat, did his father hand
4 over to you a ten-page list of phone numbers with names
5 associated, printed from Henri Paul's computer?
6 A. No it was Mr Paul, the father of Henri, who gave it to
7 us so that we could try to get in contact with people
8 that Mr Henri Paul knew and that maybe we could hear.
9 Q. On that list, which you append to your statement, there
10 are the names of various police officers, I think. Is
11 that right?
12 A. Yes, people that Mr Paul knew who were in the framework
13 of his position at the Ritz Hotel, as deputy head of
14 security.
15 Q. Now, there is also an entry on the list entitled "DST"
16 with a name under it. Do you know what that
17 abbreviation stands for?
18 A. Yes. It is a police department.
19 Q. I think, in fact, it is an internal security service of
20 the French state, isn't it?
21 A. Yes, correct.
22 Q. We have heard from Mr Klein of the Ritz that it would be
23 part of M Paul's job to be in touch with the police and
24 the security services of France. Was that a view that
25 you took in your investigation?
56
1 A. Yes. I think it is quite normal.
2 Q. While you were at the flat, did you have a conversation
3 with Henri Paul's father about a woman who had come by
4 the flat?
5 A. Yes.
6 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Just a moment, I think we may
7 have a problem with the LiveNote.
8 MR HOUGH: I am sorry. There is a technical problem at this
9 end.
10 LORD JUSTICE SCOTT BAKER: Since we are right on the break
11 for the midday adjournment, it is probably more
12 convenient if we break off now.
13 M Monot, we have a technical problem here but we are
14 at the point where we break off for our midday break for
15 lunch. So I think the sensible thing is to break off
16 now and resume in one hour's time. I hope that will not
17 be too inconvenient.
18 Half past one, members of the jury.
19 (12.30 pm)
20 (The short adjournment)
21
57
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